Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: neverpaying on November 06, 2024, 07:11:54 pm
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They have accepted my representation and cancelled the PCN:
"Thank you for your representations received on 11 February 2025, against the above penalty charge notice (PCN). Your comments and the notes of the Civil Enforcement Officer (CEO) have been considered.
We have noted your comment but due to the fact that an important information about the case cannot be retrieve a decision had being made to accept your representation. [sic]
In view of the above information, your representation has been accepted and penalty charge notice has been cancelled."
Bit of fortune. Is there anything here that can be used for future cases?
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Additionally, I did not receive the initial Notice to Owner, depriving me of the opportunity to pay at the discounted rate. It is unfair to penalise road users for a delivery failure beyond their control, especially because the initially offered discounted rate is not re-offered and that a delivery failure caused a debt recovery to be issued. Notice to Owners should be sent with signed or recorded delivery to prevent this unjust stress on road users."
Is nonsense, I'm afraid, I'd leave it out.
There was no 'opportunity to pay the discount' with a NTO. You had your chance with the initial PCN.
As regards how NTOs are served, this is by first-class post and not signed or recorded, after all if this was the case then motorists could just refuse to sign.
I've removed the line about the discount, but kept the line about the tracked delivery.
Submitted the representation now.
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Additionally, I did not receive the initial Notice to Owner, depriving me of the opportunity to pay at the discounted rate. It is unfair to penalise road users for a delivery failure beyond their control, especially because the initially offered discounted rate is not re-offered and that a delivery failure caused a debt recovery to be issued. Notice to Owners should be sent with signed or recorded delivery to prevent this unjust stress on road users."
Is nonsense, I'm afraid, I'd leave it out.
There was no 'opportunity to pay the discount' with a NTO. You had your chance with the initial PCN.
As regards how NTOs are served, this is by first-class post and not signed or recorded, after all if this was the case then motorists could just refuse to sign.
In view of the number of times we see on here that postal PCNs and NtOs are not received before Charge Certificates are received, my view is that all postal enforcement documents should be sent by tracked mail. That way there cannot be any argument about when they arrive at the addressee.
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Additionally, I did not receive the initial Notice to Owner, depriving me of the opportunity to pay at the discounted rate. It is unfair to penalise road users for a delivery failure beyond their control, especially because the initially offered discounted rate is not re-offered and that a delivery failure caused a debt recovery to be issued. Notice to Owners should be sent with signed or recorded delivery to prevent this unjust stress on road users."
Is nonsense, I'm afraid, I'd leave it out.
There was no 'opportunity to pay the discount' with a NTO. You had your chance with the initial PCN.
As regards how NTOs are served, this is by first-class post and not signed or recorded, after all if this was the case then motorists could just refuse to sign.
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This is what I am submitting as my representation:
"I am appealing this PCN because the road markings are severely faded, making the single yellow lines almost impossible to see under normal conditions. The CEO’s high contrast photographs exaggerate their visibility because the lines are not maintained to a standard that clearly indicates any restriction. And the area that would have been underneath and to the front of my vehicle are completely faded. This location is also within a controlled parking zone so lacks the proper signage directly at the location, this in conjunction with the severely faded lines, and the fact that I also hold a valid resident permit for the entire area is what caused the confusion and led me to believe that I could park there.
Additionally, I did not receive the initial Notice to Owner, depriving me of the opportunity to pay at the discounted rate. It is unfair to penalise road users for a delivery failure beyond their control, especially because the initially offered discounted rate is not re-offered and that a delivery failure caused a debt recovery to be issued. Notice to Owners should be sent with signed or recorded delivery to prevent this unjust stress on road users."
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I believe I have the 12th of this month to submit my representations. Are there any thoughts or suggestions on my previous post?
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Sorry, I forgot to update. I received the NTO on the 16th. The council sent it on the last day possible with 1st class next day delivery...
The album with the NTO is here: https://imgur.com/a/mFW7X5u
As the above user helpfully added, I don't lose anything by taking this all the way as the fine will remain the same.
In the representations, my point would be that:
1. The lines are completely faded. The start of the double yellow is completely gone. The part where I was parked was almost completely gone too. The CEO's camera's high contrast/saturation is hiding this fact.
2. There are no nearby signs (given that this is a controlled parking zone), and no way to see that there are restrictions given that the lines were faded.
3. I have a resident permit for the entire area where I was parked, which added to the confusion.
I would also add that this process of missing the first NTO, which should definitely be sent by recorded delivery if a missed delivery results in a debt being registered, plus not re-offering a discount through no fault of my own means I am unreasonably being punished here.
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The date on the court order is 20th December, which it says is the same day that I submitted the witness order.
Does the council re-offer the £65 discount should the appeal get rejected? Or is it a case of £65 to pay or £130 if I choose to appeal?
What date did you email your Witness Statement form to the TEC? The 18th Dec?
The recipient of the on-street PCN had 14 days beginning with the date of service (the date that the PCN was stuck onto the windscreen) to pay at the discount rate. That is now long since lapsed.
The NTO won't offer the discount, it will be for the full amount of £130. This is also true of the NTO that went missing. It's possible but unlikely that Newham will reoffer the discount if you submit formal representations against the NTO. So you might as well appeal to the Adjudicator as there is no financial incentive to do otherwise.
If this case gets to the Adjudicator then you would be liable for £130 if you lose the case, £0 payable if you win.
Newham need to get the new NTO served on you by the 16th Jan. So the latest day for them to issue and post it is Tuesday the 14th Jan. I wouldn't contact them in case they mess that up. And keep the envelope and make a note of when the NTO arrives in the post. Newham consider it acceptable to backdate documents and post them late.
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The date on the court order is 20th December, which it says is the same day that I submitted the witness order.
Does the council re-offer the £65 discount should the appeal get rejected? Or is it a case of £65 to pay or £130 if I choose to appeal?
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Assuming you ticked the box for non-receipt of the Notice to Owner on the Witness Statement, then the next step is that Newham will serve a new Notice to Owner. You can challenge (submit formal representations) against it in the normal manner and appeal to the Adjudicator if rejected. The penalty would be £130 if you lose.
What date is on the court order issued by the TEC?
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I have a letter from the county court that orders for the "recovery of unpaid penalty charge be revoked".
What's the next step now? Do I wait for Newham to get back to me with a fresh NtO, or am I meant to make an appeal using the same link?
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The debt has finally increased by £10 so I have just now completed the TE9 form, submitted it, and received the automatic acknowledgement email.
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OP, sometimes time limits are floors, not ceilings and this is the case here.
A council may choose to accept the surcharged penalty after the 14-day period if it wishes. This only has the effect of prohibiting them from pursuing this as if it were a debt before it elapses.
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Please post the letter, redacting only yr name & adddress.
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I've been sent a "gracious" letter from Newham council offering support to help me pay my outstanding £195.00 penalty charge. It says I have 14 days from the date of the letter (25/11) to pay. I would gladly let the council write off the charge but it sounds like their support is just free online advice. I assume this charitable offer from them resets the typical clock on charge certificates so I will likely tracking it from 09/12 when the 14 day period lapses.
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Fee is still £195, will wait another 7 days --> 03/12
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We've passed the 19th Nov date so I'm now waiting until 26th Nov to see if anything gets registered
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It's in the Upton Park controlled zone which is live from Mon-Sat 8am-6.30pm.
See CPZ map:
https://lbnewham.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=6c213298647e4283a537266c72c1d086
A zone entry:
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5333571,0.0363763,3a,43y,332.97h,84t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s88LfjxYz3LnGmn1gRV37bA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D5.9978319767137975%26panoid%3D88LfjxYz3LnGmn1gRV37bA%26yaw%3D332.9681538288896!7i16384!8i8192?coh=205410&entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTAyOS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
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the place where I was parked has no signs whatsoever defining the restricted period. In addition, the line is so faded to the point of being invisible.
As regards the line, I don't think you'd convince an adjudicator on this one - the photos show a yellow line.
So the only remaining issue is whether it's within a CPZ or signed independently.
There isn't a stand-alone traffic sign to be seen, which probably indicates that it's within a CPZ.
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Hello all, I've just received this charge certificate for a PCN from 28/08. I was allegedly sent a notice to owner on 30/09, but I did not receive this. I did get the PCN in the yellow packet under my windshield, but I was waiting to receive the NtO to make my representations, which I believe hold some strength.
I am now following the advice on this forum (https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/charge-certificate-cases-under-the-traffic-management-act-2004-no-original-pcn/) regarding charge certificates. Given the charge certificate was served on 05/11, it's my understanding that the 14 day period expires on 19/11 and I'll wait until 26/11 to check if the debt has been registered.
Regarding the alleged contravention, which I understand is a conversation for when the PCN resets back to appeal stage, the place where I was parked has no signs whatsoever defining the restricted period. In addition, the line is so faded to the point of being invisible.
Documents (album (https://imgur.com/a/MbEDbdI))
- Charge certificate scan https://i.imgur.com/S3J7IiX.jpeg
- PCN photograph 1 (https://i.imgur.com/CRwzW5l.jpeg), photograph 2 (https://i.imgur.com/Z3Ow1t3.jpeg), photograph 3 (https://i.imgur.com/P3dpxB7.jpeg)
- Photographs of the location and the yellow line, photograph 1 (https://i.imgur.com/tYR6x2o.jpeg) and photograph 2 (https://i.imgur.com/jvJ8php.jpeg)
- Streetview latest (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5336808,0.0351928,3a,47.9y,95.73h,84.04t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1soMC-G2GiCQvabBjKnrbDNQ!2e0!5s20241001T000000!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D5.963891074193981%26panoid%3DoMC-G2GiCQvabBjKnrbDNQ%26yaw%3D95.72870487872602!7i16384!8i8192?coh=205410&entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTAyOS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D)pointing at location. Older streetview link (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5337262,0.0356317,3a,75y,168.75h,71.69t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1sCU9qY06jYLSY8sNhvTs9_w!2e0!5s20220401T000000!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D18.305829054269225%26panoid%3DCU9qY06jYLSY8sNhvTs9_w%26yaw%3D168.75447703755216!7i16384!8i8192?coh=205410&entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTAyOS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D) of location