Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Private parking tickets => Topic started by: Madmussy on November 05, 2024, 08:37:44 am

Title: Re: Excel Parking Ticket - Driver seen leaving site without any evidence
Post by: b789 on May 06, 2025, 09:49:10 am
The NTK states:

'..Registered Keeper you are invited to:

(i) Pay the charge..

Seems a clear invitation and therefore compliant. In any event, OP post the back of the NTK.

As regards giving the 'period of parking..' IMO this goes as much to the keeper's defence as to any lack of compliance with PoFA and therefore wouldn't be grounds for having any claim struck out.

As regards the detail of the alleged breach, this is given in the NTK as:

'Vehicle parked in a customer only car park/site and driver observed leaving premises'.

If the creditor's claim is correct then as the photos are timed at 10.33 and the time of contravention is given as 10.35 then it must follow that on parking the driver was immediately identified by the PO and immediately left the site ..before even reading the Ts and Cs of use. Therefore unless they knew the site and if the creditor's claim is correct this would have been foolish.

OP, you can send cage-rattling correspondence to the creditor if you wish, but do be aware of what actually bears upon the arguments regarding the defence and what's there to try and bluff the creditor out of taking further action.

How long would it have taken the old lady in question to get to the site boundary from where the car was parked being an example, I wonder?

And how does the NtK comply with PoFA 9(2)(a)? Where is the period of parking referred to? What evidence does that NtK show that the vehicle was parked for longer than the minimum consideration period for a contract to have been formed?

Just in case you have not read it, I suggest you familiarise yourself with the persuasive appeal case of Scott Brennan v Premier Park Solutions (2023) [H6DP632H] (https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/1b9rpna57dutsetdgwi60/Brennan-v-Premier-Parking-Plymouth-CC-Judgment-20230821-V-Final_-14.pdf?rlkey=203u1fav6fve811lz8cm8wpwx&st=88u7u897&dl=0)

Just as you can't be partially or even mostly pregnant, you either are or you aren't. It is a binary matter. Likewise, an NtK cannot be partially or even mostly PoFA compliant. It either is or it isn't. In this case, it isn't.

Therefore, if the NtK is not PoFA compliant, there can be no Keeper liability.

As for your comment:

You can send cage-rattling letters but...

An LoC response is not a bluff. It’s a legitimate and reasoned exercise of the Pre-Action Protocol, designed to:

• Force disclosure of evidence,
• Narrow the issues,
• Preserve points of defence (including procedural failings),
• ablish the unreasonableness of any future claim.

That is not cage-rattling — it’s litigation protocol and entirely proper.
Title: Re: Excel Parking Ticket - Driver seen leaving site without any evidence
Post by: Madmussy on May 06, 2025, 09:43:23 am
Then how would you defend it?

It’s crazy they have no evidence of me leaving besides the PO statement.

@B789 what’s your thoughts here ?
Title: Re: Excel Parking Ticket - Driver seen leaving site without any evidence
Post by: H C Andersen on May 06, 2025, 09:31:26 am
Thanks.

Right at the top of the back of the NTK:

'You have been issued with this notice..do not ignore..as appropriate you should now: (A)pay the charge, B....

Clearly the NTK complies with PoFA as regards invitation to pay so this is not a procedural defence.
Title: Re: Excel Parking Ticket - Driver seen leaving site without any evidence
Post by: DWMB2 on May 05, 2025, 10:02:16 pm
OP? Is that short for something.
"Original Poster" - you
Title: Re: Excel Parking Ticket - Driver seen leaving site without any evidence
Post by: Madmussy on May 05, 2025, 09:46:26 pm
Hi H C Anderson,

Please see attached the back on NTK.

OP? Is that short for something.

Regarding this ticket - I have a receipt from pets at home to confirm
That I was a customer and was on site.

Regarding my elderly mother she is disabled and can’t walk long distance.

If memory recalls the car was parked on the edge of the boundary. So literally less than 10 steps.

The car was parked here and the boundary is where the white mini is exiting.

At the site there is only a few stores and VW.  To suggest that I went into VW while VW have their own parking bays is bonkers.

I didn’t have a MOT due nor a service.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Excel Parking Ticket - Driver seen leaving site without any evidence
Post by: H C Andersen on May 05, 2025, 05:16:09 pm
The NTK states:

'..Registered Keeper you are invited to:

(i) Pay the charge..

Seems a clear invitation and therefore compliant. In any event, OP post the back of the NTK.

As regards giving the 'period of parking..' IMO this goes as much to the keeper's defence as to any lack of compliance with PoFA and therefore wouldn't be grounds for having any claim struck out.

As regards the detail of the alleged breach, this is given in the NTK as:

'Vehicle parked in a customer only car park/site and driver observed leaving premises'.

If the creditor's claim is correct then as the photos are timed at 10.33 and the time of contravention is given as 10.35 then it must follow that on parking the driver was immediately identified by the PO and immediately left the site ..before even reading the Ts and Cs of use. Therefore unless they knew the site and if the creditor's claim is correct this would have been foolish.

OP, you can send cage-rattling correspondence to the creditor if you wish, but do be aware of what actually bears upon the arguments regarding the defence and what's there to try and bluff the creditor out of taking further action.

How long would it have taken the old lady in question to get to the site boundary from where the car was parked being an example, I wonder?
Title: Re: Excel Parking Ticket - Driver seen leaving site without any evidence
Post by: b789 on May 05, 2025, 02:39:51 pm
That's the document. As stated, it is not POFA compliant and therefore they cannot transfer liability from the unknown driver to the Keeper.

Let the try and sue the Keeper. It their money that they're wasting.

Interesting that in their evidence the state:

5. A series of images were taken showing the location of the vehicle in relation to the signs on site and are now supplied as photographic evidence. The photographic evidence shows the vehicle parked adjacent to signage making the Terms and Conditions clear.
6. The Patrol Officer (PO) observed the vehicle parked in situ. When digitally recording the contravention the PO made the following written statement: "contra 34:- vehicle parked in a customer only car park and viewed the driver and an old lady leaving the site towards VW garage"
7. Contravention photographs supplied, which are time and date stamped, confirm the parked position of the appellant's vehicle within the site.

the phrase in point 6 —

"viewed the driver and an old lady leaving the site towards VW garage" —

could reasonably be interpreted as inappropriate or offensive, particularly in a formal or quasi-legal context.

Referring to someone as “an old lady” is:

• Informal and subjective: It lacks professional or neutral tone.
• Potentially discriminatory: It may be seen as ageist or patronising, especially in the context of a parking enforcement action.
• Unnecessary for the allegation: The age of the person is irrelevant to the alleged contravention.

In correspondence it would be fair and reasonable to raise this as an example of unprofessional and potentially prejudicial language by the operator. You could state that:

The PO’s description referring to the ‘old lady’ is wholly unprofessional, irrelevant to the alleged facts, and indicative of bias. It is inappropriate to include subjective or pejorative characterisations in a formal evidence submission.

If you've not yet sent the response to the loC, you could add a paragraph near the end with:

Finally, I note that the written observation recorded by your client’s patrol officer includes the phrase “an old lady leaving the site.” This language is unprofessional, subjective, and entirely irrelevant to the alleged contravention. It is wholly inappropriate in formal proceedings and indicative of a lack of impartiality in your client’s evidence. Should this matter proceed to court, I reserve the right to challenge the credibility and propriety of such testimony.
Title: Re: Excel Parking Ticket - Driver seen leaving site without any evidence
Post by: Madmussy on May 05, 2025, 01:23:46 pm
I think I have found the original notice to keeper.

The backside is all about how to pay

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Excel Parking Ticket - Driver seen leaving site without any evidence
Post by: b789 on May 05, 2025, 01:16:39 pm
There is no copy of the physical NtK that was received in the post. That is the definitive document we need to see. What you have shown in those photos is the information about the PCN on their website, which is not what I mean.

Yes, send the response to info@elmslegal.co.uk and also CC in yourself.
Title: Re: Excel Parking Ticket - Driver seen leaving site without any evidence
Post by: Madmussy on May 05, 2025, 01:11:34 pm
Thanks for sending that across

Forgive my stupidity the i have uploaded all documents into this link previously.


https://imgur.com/a/excel-parking-Gk99KYn

Let me know if the notice to driver is missing.

Do I send that email to their info@elmslegal.co.uk?

I will sign it as my mother.
Title: Re: Excel Parking Ticket - Driver seen leaving site without any evidence
Post by: b789 on May 05, 2025, 12:58:23 pm
If the address for service is wrong, then you must urgently send a Date Rectification Notice (DRN) to the DPOs of Excel and Elms. This should have been done as soon as the first notice was received with the wrong address.

The DRN must instruct the DPO to update their records with the current address for service and to erase the old address. The highlighted words are there for a reason, so use them.

They normally require proof that the person making the request is the right person to do so. If the V5C has been updated and has the correct current address, then a copy of that is sufficient. Otherwise, you will need a utility bill or bank statement with the correct address, making sure that you redact all other information on it.

Why have you never shown us the original Notice to Driver (NtD) that was received? We could do with a view of that.

Respond to the LoC with the following:

Quote
Dear Sirs,

Your Letter Before Claim dated 17 April 2025 is vague, non-compliant with the Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims, and fails to include the mandatory documents your client is required to provide.

I am the registered keeper of the vehicle. I was not the driver on the material date and have never identified the driver to your client. Crucially, I am legally incapable of being the driver because I do not have a driving licence. Therefore, any presumption or assertion by your client or their representatives that I was driving is manifestly false and negligent.

Your client is attempting to rely on Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA) to transfer liability to me as keeper. However, their Notice to Keeper dated 08/08/2024 is non-compliant with PoFA and fails to meet the statutory requirements, in particular:

• It does not specify any period of parking, as required by paragraph 9(2)(a);
• It fails to include a valid invitation for the Keeper to pay in accordance with paragraph 9(2)(e)(i);
• The contravention is based solely on an observation by a patrol officer, with no supporting photographic or video evidence, rendering any alleged breach unproven.

Since the driver has not been identified and PoFA conditions have not been met, your client has no lawful basis to pursue me, either as the driver (which I cannot be) or as the keeper. Any proceedings would constitute an abuse of process and a waste of court time. I will robustly defend any such claim and will seek strike-out and costs under CPR 27.14(2)(g) for unreasonable conduct.

Moreover, your Letter Before Claim fails to meet the requirements of the Pre-Action Protocol (paragraphs 3.1(a)-(d), 5.1 and 5.2), and the Practice Direction on Pre-Action Conduct (paragraphs 6(a)–(c)). I now require, as per those protocols, the following information and documentation before I can consider my position:

• A clear explanation of the cause of action;
• Clarification on whether your client is pursuing me as driver or keeper;
• A copy of the Notice to Keeper served on 08/08/2024 and an explanation of how it is alleged to comply with PoFA;
• A copy of the alleged contract and signage terms in place on the material date;
• Photographs of the signage, showing font size, placement and visibility;
• A site plan showing where signs were located relative to the vehicle;
• Photographs or video showing the alleged contravention;
• A copy of the contract with the landowner, including confirmation that your client has standing to pursue charges and litigation;
• A breakdown of the amount claimed and the basis of the £70 add-on;
• Clarification as to whether the principal sum is claimed as damages or consideration;
• Whether the additional £70 represents what is dressed up as a 'Debt Recovery' fee, and if so, is this nett or inclusive of VAT? If the latter, would you kindly explain why I am being asked to pay the operator’s VAT and if so, the VAT registration number?

Unless your client provides the above and complies with the Protocol, I will seek an immediate stay of any proceedings and apply for costs under established case law including:

Webb Resolutions Ltd v Waller Needham & Green [2012] EWHC 3529 (Ch)
Charles Church Developments Ltd v Stent Foundations Ltd [2007] EWHC 855

Pending receipt of the required information and a compliant Letter Before Claim, I am unable to respond substantively. Should your client issue a premature claim, this letter will be relied upon as evidence of unreasonable conduct.

Yours faithfully,
Title: Re: Excel Parking Ticket - Driver seen leaving site without any evidence
Post by: Madmussy on May 05, 2025, 11:28:34 am
Hello B789,

Thank you for the swift response and contributing.

Yes it’s in my mother’s name and her old address. I would need them
To update it as I am using the Royal Mail redirecting service that’s taking sometime to get letters to the new address.

And you’re right she’s the keeper but not the driver. Doesn’t hold a driving license
Title: Re: Excel Parking Ticket - Driver seen leaving site without any evidence
Post by: b789 on May 05, 2025, 11:01:14 am
Usual tactics by Excel. They use Elms to file the claim and then dismiss them to continue on their own. However, you can guarantee that this will never make it to a hearing.

For now, we need to clarify in whose name is the LoC addressed? Is it to your mother, who you said is the registered keeper but she does not have a drivers licence?

From here on in, everything must be done in the name of the person to who the LoC is addressed. You can do everything on behalf of your mother as long as it is all in her name and signed in her name (all documents can simply be signed electronically by typing the full name of the signatory).

So, please answer this question before we can provide further advice.
Title: Re: Excel Parking Ticket - Driver seen leaving site without any evidence
Post by: Madmussy on May 04, 2025, 06:27:37 pm
Hi All,

I have just received a letter before claim.

Since the ticket has been issued they have passed this to DCLB and now with ELMS legal. 

Since the ticket was issued there has been a update on the address

Please see attached letter.[attach=1][attach=1]

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Excel Parking Ticket - Driver seen leaving site without any evidence
Post by: mickR on November 06, 2024, 04:28:31 pm
I like Exel's suggestion that despite admitting the op was a customer, they ceased to be a customer because they "left the site"
 :-\   ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D
Title: Re: Excel Parking Ticket - Driver seen leaving site without any evidence
Post by: b789 on November 06, 2024, 11:10:09 am
It's not a "grace" period. You are confusing the "grace" period with the "consideration" period. Doesn't matter.

Come back if/when you receive a Letter of Claim (LoC). You are dealing with intellectually malnourished people, They have zero evidence that the driver left the site.

They may issue a claim in order to try and scare you into paying. However, they would never let this get in front of a judge. It's what is known as a "toothbrush" case.

The "toothbrush" claim specifically originates from an incident where a judge, frustrated by the claimant’s lack of evidence, warned the claimant's legal representative to “bring a toothbrush” if they intended to present similarly baseless cases in the future. The implication was that the representative could face severe repercussions, even contempt of court, if they continued to waste judicial resources with unsubstantiated claims.

In that instance, the claim involved an accusation that the driver had "left the site" of a parking area without any supporting evidence beyond photos of the vehicle parked. The judge considered it a serious abuse of the court’s time, suggesting that the claimant’s representative might not be "going home" next time if they presented similarly flimsy claims. This term has since become infamous in parking litigation, reminding claimants to ensure they have substantial evidence before making allegations in court.
Title: Re: Excel Parking Ticket - Driver seen leaving site without any evidence
Post by: Madmussy on November 06, 2024, 10:51:21 am
I will be even honest with you. From the stamp this was 5 mins after I had arrived. So as I walk into the shop so not even 10 mins grace period. But it's difficult for me to prove it. There is no ANPR no CCTV, and the same warden was ticketing people, even as they arrive stating they have overstated but without evidence this is bonkers.
Title: Re: Excel Parking Ticket - Driver seen leaving site without any evidence
Post by: Dave65 on November 06, 2024, 10:44:23 am
And this warden or such could have warned the person they saw leaving the site that a PCN could be issued.
Title: Re: Excel Parking Ticket - Driver seen leaving site without any evidence
Post by: Madmussy on November 06, 2024, 08:00:56 am
Thanks B789 - I have uploaded the ticket and the picture they claim as evidence of the breach.

They have only included a site plan with the appeal for IAS - but I did argue that the signs were not clear, as its by the entrance which includes the VW. Nonetheless for me it clear that I had no business at VW as it's not my local dealership for service or MOT and I have proof of it.

It's very sad that many people on that day were also given made up tickets. How are they getting away with this?
Title: Re: Excel Parking Ticket - Driver seen leaving site without any evidence
Post by: b789 on November 05, 2024, 03:48:42 pm
What actual evidence have they provided to prove that the "driver" left the premises?

All that effort you put into wasted appeals that were never going to work! The burden of proof is on them to prove the breach of any term, not for you to disprove. What a waste of effort.

You haven't even shown us the Notice to Keeper (NtK) that was sent. That will have the wording that they are relying on in their allegation.

Their sign states "Customer use only while on the premises. Anyone seen to be parking and walking off site will be in breach of the terms and conditions". How can that even be an enforceable term in a contract?

Ask yourself, if the driver parks but only a passenger walks off site (not that any boundaries are defined as to where the actual "site" is delimited), who is the person deemed to have breached the terms? It’s unclear who exactly would be breaching the terms if only a passenger (and not the driver) leaves the premises.

A contract cannot reasonably hold the driver liable for the actions of other occupants unless it explicitly specifies that responsibility. Even if it did, such a term would be open to challenge for being unfair, as the driver cannot control the actions of passengers in all circumstances.

Without clear delineation of the "site" boundary, the driver (or passengers) have no way of understanding what constitutes "walking off site." A contract term that is ambiguous to this degree is considered unenforceable under the Consumer Rights Act 2015, as it lacks the necessary transparency for the driver to make an informed decision about parking.

Hopefully, you now realise that you are dealing with a scammer. This willingly be resolved in the ultimate dispute resolution arena, the small claims track of the county court.

Ignore any and all debt collector letters. They are powerless to do anything. Use them as kindling or line the bottom of a litter tray.

If/when you receive a Letter of Claim (LoC) giving you 30 days to pay or they will issue a claim, come back and we'll advise on the next steps. For now, get on with your life and don't worry about this. It is easily defended when the time comes.
Title: Re: Excel Parking Ticket - Driver seen leaving site without any evidence
Post by: Madmussy on November 05, 2024, 11:19:33 am
Funnily enough Dave- they started to put a paper on the windscreen directing my me to their privacy policy. But they have failed to indicated where do I look - so now I wonder if this PO box argument is no longer valid.

My concern is that they have failed to prove that I left. It's all based on the evidence of the Parking Officer who can easily lie and manipulate. Which is why I am sure he has done to many people.

Leaving them in this limbo -
Title: Re: Excel Parking Ticket - Driver seen leaving site without any evidence
Post by: Madmussy on November 05, 2024, 10:50:38 am
Never revealed the name of the driver, to anyone. If you see IAS Excel has reported that the appellant was the driver and appellant was the keeper.

Which doesn't make sense - how can my mother be the driver without a license?
Title: Re: Excel Parking Ticket - Driver seen leaving site without any evidence
Post by: mickR on November 05, 2024, 10:42:47 am
The keeper is my mother. The driver was one of my brothers

but all communication has been directly to my mother. With the exception of the IAS response it under my name since I have submitted it on behalf of my mother (the keeper) and my brother (driver)

All the letters including debt recovery is directed to my mother who doesn't\ have a driving license.
did you reveal the name of the driver to either Exel or IAS? (This should never be done only ever refer to "the driver" )
Title: Re: Excel Parking Ticket - Driver seen leaving site without any evidence
Post by: Dave65 on November 05, 2024, 10:35:42 am
Hear goes, the regulars will comment on this.

The Excel Parking sign shows their address as a PO Box.

On a recent u-tube video by The Blackbelt Barrister (yes a Barrister) who has covered quite a few PPN`s he says that a contract cannot be made which gives a PO Box address.  He refers to the Consumer Credit Act, also a company cannot register at company house giving a PO Box as their company address it must be a Geographical address.
Title: Re: Excel Parking Ticket - Driver seen leaving site without any evidence
Post by: Madmussy on November 05, 2024, 10:25:10 am
The keeper is my mother. The driver was one of my brothers

but all communication has been directly to my mother. With the exception of the IAS response it under my name since I have submitted it on behalf of my mother (the keeper) and my brother (driver)

All the letters including debt recovery is directed to my mother who doesn't\ have a driving license.
Title: Re: Excel Parking Ticket - Driver seen leaving site without any evidence
Post by: mickR on November 05, 2024, 10:17:13 am
we're you on your own? they suggest you were with someone and that person was driving?
who is the registered keeper?
Title: Re: Excel Parking Ticket - Driver seen leaving site without any evidence
Post by: Madmussy on November 05, 2024, 09:16:58 am
Hi Mick,

Thanks for response.

I have uploaded the images

https://imgur.com/a/Gk99KYn

let me know if you have any trouble accessing them.
Title: Re: Excel Parking Ticket - Driver seen leaving site without any evidence
Post by: mickR on November 05, 2024, 08:41:40 am
READ THIS FIRST - **BEFORE POSTING YOUR CASE!**,

https://www.ftla.uk/private-parking-tickets/read-this-first-private-parking-charges-forum-guide/

we need to see the pcn, and your appeal and their response redact you personal details.
post using an external host please.
Title: Excel Parking Ticket - Driver seen leaving site without any evidence
Post by: Madmussy on November 05, 2024, 08:37:44 am
Hi All,

I have received a parking ticket form Excel Parking Services in London. The ticket was for breaching the terms and conditions 'Driver seen leaving the site going into VW'

This ticket was issued by a parking patrol officer and not ANPR not any CCTV

I did not leave the site as in facet shopping at Pets at Home and have the receipt. Of course the appeal by Excel was rejected, and escalated my appeal to IAS - of course reject the appeal on the basis that I had to proof that Excel was wrong.

Despite submitting a receipt from pets at home, proved that I had not business with VW (no MOT, Service) and this was not my local VW.

They have refused to uphold the appeal.

The ticket has not been given to debt recovery. Any advice?

[attachment deleted by admin]