Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Private parking tickets => Topic started by: stickycactus22 on November 04, 2024, 07:23:10 pm


Title: Re: Liverpool John Lennon Airport - NO STOPPING 'PCN' - ELMS LEGAL - County Claim
Post by: DWMB2 on January 06, 2026, 04:45:30 pm
Please start a new thread for advice on your case.

Title: Re: Liverpool John Lennon Airport - NO STOPPING 'PCN' - ELMS LEGAL - County Claim
Post by: Gismocullen1 on January 06, 2026, 04:13:19 pm
I'm not sure if I should raise a new thread or reply? Have had similar issues with VCS having stopped briefly at JLA in August. Now being pursued by their debt collectors. Could do with guidance!
Title: Re: Liverpool John Lennon Airport - NO STOPPING 'PCN' - ELMS LEGAL - County Claim
Post by: b789 on November 27, 2024, 10:32:44 am
That's a pity. Because of the failure to respond to a claim, you have enriched the claimant with not only the £100 charge but also the fake added £70 and their fixed fees.

You now have to hope that the current claim is successful. I am confident that the defence should do the job. However, knowing how vexatious VCS are, the may go all the way to a hearing.

Your job is not finished, as you will have to provide a Witness Statement (WS) if the case is not discontinued or struck out. Normally, once the claim is allotted to your local county court, you and the claimant will receive orders from the court with a hearing date and a deadline to submit relevant paperwork (bundles). Usually, the deadline is 14 days before the hearing. My advice is not to submit your WS until the last possible moment or at least until you've had a chance to see the claimants WS.

When you receive the claimants WS, show us here so that we can prepare your WS which will hopefully contain enough points that can be easily rebutted.
Title: Re: Liverpool John Lennon Airport - NO STOPPING 'PCN' - ELMS LEGAL - County Claim
Post by: stickycactus22 on November 27, 2024, 10:03:27 am
Yes, they are two seperate instances, both happend within a few weeks of eachother unfortunately.

The CCJ has been paid in full. Unfortunate circumstances but it is what it is.
Title: Re: Liverpool John Lennon Airport - NO STOPPING 'PCN' - ELMS LEGAL - County Claim
Post by: b789 on November 26, 2024, 03:59:27 pm
Can you please confirm that we are definitely discussing two separate incidents? Did you by chance make the same mistake when dropping off and then again when picking up at the airport

This needs clarifying before you pay this CCJ.
Title: Re: Liverpool John Lennon Airport - NO STOPPING 'PCN' - ELMS LEGAL - County Claim
Post by: stickycactus22 on November 25, 2024, 01:15:41 pm
Really unfortunate regarding that T6J claim, I guess I will just cough up 277 and get it over and done with as it's not worth spending 303 and then potentially not even getting it disputed.. we fight the T7J one though.

Thanks for your help, very much appreciate it.
Title: Re: Liverpool John Lennon Airport - NO STOPPING 'PCN' - ELMS LEGAL - County Claim
Post by: b789 on November 25, 2024, 12:08:18 pm
It will depend on why the other claim was not responded to. If there is a possibility that it was mistaken as a duplicate of the other claim, you'd have to convince a judge of that. A single digit difference in the claim number from the same claimant could be an excuse.

The point is, you have already defended a claim by the same claimant, so why would you not defend a second claim. The Overriding Objective is that you would have a reasonable prospect of successfully defending the claim and would have defended it.

The only issue is that it will cost you £303 to apply for the set aside with no guarantee that it would be successful. It would be applied for under CPR 13.3 and there is case law that supports any claim being set aside as part of the Overriding Objective should be granted.

You could ask that the application fee costs be reserved pending the outcome of the claim being successfully defended which means that if you are subsequently successful with your defence, the application fee would be paid by the claimant. They are likely to try and resist because they have done nothing wrong by applying for a default CCJ as the claim was not even acknowledged or defended and they sent all the correspondence to the correct address (as you have stated, you are using your fathers address for service).

There is a possibility that the court would grant the set aside but that the claim has to be defended and they do not award the application fee against the claimant. So, you'd already be £303 down and still having to defend the claim.

Whilst the claim is easily defended and has a very good prospect of being successful, it is not guaranteed. By paying the CCJ in full before 18th December, it will be expunged from the record and that will be the end of it.
Title: Re: Liverpool John Lennon Airport - NO STOPPING 'PCN' - ELMS LEGAL - County Claim
Post by: stickycactus22 on November 25, 2024, 11:51:45 am
Yes my car is registered there as I have moved out fairly recently..

He's currently at work but will check if he has the other form. Would it still be possible to dispute the ccj or do I just cough it up?
Title: Re: Liverpool John Lennon Airport - NO STOPPING 'PCN' - ELMS LEGAL - County Claim
Post by: b789 on November 25, 2024, 11:49:29 am
Well, that's unfortunate. Are you saying that your car is registered to your father's address? Do you receive any mail addressed to you at that address within a day or so?

Does you father have a copy of the other claim form?
Title: Re: Liverpool John Lennon Airport - NO STOPPING 'PCN' - ELMS LEGAL - County Claim
Post by: stickycactus22 on November 25, 2024, 11:44:10 am
I log into Mcol with an email and password, then I enter the claim number and defence pack password. In this case, I do not have a defence pack password.

These claim forms are being sent to my fathers house, I suspect he thought the claims were duplicates because of very similar claim no.

I'm not sure how to log in with a claim number..
Title: Re: Liverpool John Lennon Airport - NO STOPPING 'PCN' - ELMS LEGAL - County Claim
Post by: b789 on November 25, 2024, 11:37:53 am
But did you receive the claim form for the other case? If you did and you mixed up, you can apply for a set aside.

If you log into MCOL with the other claim number, does it appear there? You should be able to see al claims against you when you log into MCOL.

Why would you not respond to a claim if you have already done so for a separate one against the same claimant?

We need an answer to that if you want to avoid paying out to this nasty vexatious operator.

Did you ask for a copy of the PoC of the other claim to determine what the date of the alleged contravention was?
Title: Re: Liverpool John Lennon Airport - NO STOPPING 'PCN' - ELMS LEGAL - County Claim
Post by: stickycactus22 on November 25, 2024, 11:20:11 am
Yes I spoke to the CNBC and they claim it is 2 separate claims.

Mcol history includes the one that is relevant in this post ending the T7J which has AoS submitted and is onto the defence.

Mcol history doesn't include T6J which has CCJ issued. Guess I will cough up 277 quid.
 
I'm on my phone and mcol website is **** on mobile phones.
Title: Re: Liverpool John Lennon Airport - NO STOPPING 'PCN' - ELMS LEGAL - County Claim
Post by: b789 on November 25, 2024, 11:09:54 am
Did you receive 2 separate claims? How do you know this? Did you call the CNBC to clarify?

What does your MCOL history say? I don't know how many times I have to ask you to show us?

Call the CNBC and ask them if there were 2 separate claims. If there weren't and it is an error on their part, they need to sort this out immediately. You do not want to have to apply for a set aside if it is there problem.

If you did receive a separate claim and didn't respond to it, you my have difficulty getting it set aside and that is going to cause you untold financial pain for the next 6 years unless the CCJ is paid in full within 28 days of the judgment.

I will ask one more time... what does your MCOL history say?
Title: Re: Liverpool John Lennon Airport - NO STOPPING 'PCN' - ELMS LEGAL - County Claim
Post by: stickycactus22 on November 25, 2024, 10:54:05 am
So apparently they are 2 different claims, but only having received one in the post... I guess I will have to dispute it?
Title: Re: Liverpool John Lennon Airport - NO STOPPING 'PCN' - ELMS LEGAL - County Claim
Post by: stickycactus22 on November 25, 2024, 08:50:32 am
I have attached the letters.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Liverpool John Lennon Airport - NO STOPPING 'PCN' - ELMS LEGAL - County Claim
Post by: b789 on November 24, 2024, 05:51:03 pm
Show us exactly what they have sent you.

You need to call the CNBC first thing in the morning and get to the bottom of this. Can you prove that the claim number you responded to in your AoS was the same number that they are saying wasn't acknowledged.

Show us a screenshot of your MCOL history.
Title: Re: Liverpool John Lennon Airport - NO STOPPING 'PCN' - ELMS LEGAL - County Claim
Post by: DWMB2 on November 24, 2024, 01:05:35 pm
Please show us this “CCJ” that “they” have sent you so that we can better understand what is going on.

Show us a screenshot of what you see on your MCOL history.
Please show us the aforementioned things.
Title: Re: Liverpool John Lennon Airport - NO STOPPING 'PCN' - ELMS LEGAL - County Claim
Post by: stickycactus22 on November 24, 2024, 11:06:01 am
Yes, so ELMS Legal has sent me a letter saying NOTICE OF JUDGEMENT IN DEFAULT, claiming I have not responded to their claim xxxx6xx. (Claimant)

 The claim number on the form from court was xxxx7xx which has an issue date of 30/10/24(cnbc)
Title: Re: Liverpool John Lennon Airport - NO STOPPING 'PCN' - ELMS LEGAL - County Claim
Post by: b789 on November 23, 2024, 11:05:10 pm
Who is “they” that have sent you something with a claim reference that is different? Are “they” the Claimant or the CNBC (court)?

You need to be very clear. Please show us this “CCJ” that “they” have sent you so that we can better understand what is going on.

Show us a screenshot of what you see on your MCOL history.
Title: Re: Liverpool John Lennon Airport - NO STOPPING 'PCN' - ELMS LEGAL - County Claim
Post by: stickycactus22 on November 23, 2024, 06:14:13 pm
I need further help, I obviously received the claim form through the post with a specific claim no. I used that claim no to submit my AoS.

They have sent me a CCJ with a claim reference of a character thats one out. It's a 6 instead of a 7 (the 7 was shown on the claim form for court)
So in MCOL AoS was submitted with xxxx7xx they have now sent me a default judgement with xxxx6xx...

This is an issue on their behalf or the courts?


Thank you for the defence, it is much appreciated. God's work.
Title: Re: Liverpool John Lennon Airport - NO STOPPING 'PCN' - ELMS LEGAL - County Claim
Post by: b789 on November 22, 2024, 10:44:55 am
OK... after some deliberation, here is the defence you should use:

Quote
IN THE COUNTY COURT
Claim No: [Claim Number]

BETWEEN:

Vehicle Control Services Ltd


Claimant

- and -

[Defendant's Full Name]


Defendant



DEFENCE


1. The Defendant denies that a contract was formed as alleged by the Claimant.

No Contract Exists

2. The signage at Liverpool John Lennon Airport (JLLA) uses prohibitory language, stating "No Stopping" and "£100 Charge if you Stop." Such language cannot form the basis of a contractual offer, as it does not permit or offer terms capable of acceptance.

3. Even if the sign could be interpreted as offering terms, which is denied, it is ambiguous. It does not specify how long a vehicle must stop to incur the charge or whether stopping momentarily for safety would constitute a breach. Ambiguity in purported terms renders them unenforceable.

4. The £100 charge is clearly punitive, arising from a prohibition, and does not represent a contractual term. Penalty charges are unenforceable unless they reflect a genuine pre-estimate of loss, which the Claimant has not demonstrated.

5. Consequently, the Defendant denies that any enforceable contract was entered into or breached.

No Keeper Liability

6. The Claimant has not clarified whether they are pursuing the Defendant as the registered keeper or the driver, which is prejudicial and undermines the Defendant’s ability to prepare a defence.

7. The Defendant accepts that they are the registered keeper of the vehicle but asserts that any liability as keeper could only arise pursuant to Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA). However, the location of the alleged breach, Liverpool John Lennon Airport (LJLA), is subject to statutory control under airport bylaws. As such, it is not "relevant land" as defined by Schedule 4 of PoFA, and keeper liability cannot arise.

Inadequate Signage

8. The Defendant disputes the Claimant’s assertion that the terms were "clearly displayed." The signage at Liverpool John Lennon Airport fails to meet the standards required to form a binding contract.

9. The signage does not clearly indicate that entering the land would create a contract or that liability would arise for stopping momentarily, rendering the terms unenforceable.

Claimant’s Authority

10. The Claimant is put to strict proof that they have the authority to issue Parking Charge Notices (PCNs) at the location of the alleged incident. This must be demonstrated by way of an unredacted contract with the landowner.

11. It is understood that the Claimant’s authority to issue PCNs extends only to the car parking areas and not to the public roads within the location. The Claimant must prove that the alleged breach occurred in an area where they are authorised to operate.

Statement of truth

I believe that the facts stated in this Defence are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.

Signed:


Date:



You only need to edit your name and the claim number. You sign the document by typing your full name for the signature and date it.

When it's ready, you attach the defence as a PDF file to an email addressed to claimresponses.cnbc@justice.gov.uk and CC in yourself. The claim number must be in the email subject line. In the body of the email simply put "Please find attached the defence in the matter of Vehicle Control Services Ltd v [your full name] Claim No.: [claim number]".

That's it for now.
Title: Re: Liverpool John Lennon Airport - NO STOPPING 'PCN' - ELMS LEGAL - County Claim
Post by: b789 on November 21, 2024, 01:21:17 pm
I know the location well, having operated out of LJLA for several years. The location is after you turn right on the roundabout when entering the airport. There are some businesses that operate on the left as you drive towards the free drop off area. It is not particularly relevant for now.

I am still discussing whether to use the short defence and draft order to for VCS to provide more detailed PoC that fully comply with CPR 16.4 or to just go for the final defence which would be based on no contract formed and no keeper liability. The short defence would force VCS to fully comply with CPR 16.4 and attempt to comply with the draft order, which is going to be almost impossible for them to comply with, thus forcing a strike out or discontinuance.

Even if they could comply with the draft order, the amended defence would be very strong. I will hopefully provide an answer later this afternoon.
Title: Re: Liverpool John Lennon Airport - NO STOPPING 'PCN' - ELMS LEGAL - County Claim
Post by: DWMB2 on November 21, 2024, 12:37:05 pm
Can you show us on a map where it is you believe the alleged incident took place? We can then try and consult the byelaws to see if it is within the area to which they apply.
Title: Re: Liverpool John Lennon Airport - NO STOPPING 'PCN' - ELMS LEGAL - County Claim
Post by: stickycactus22 on November 21, 2024, 12:19:30 pm
In response to your previous post, the driver got the PCN on the way to the airport, this wasn't anywhere near the actual terminal, it was like an entrance to a warehouse or something, they could of just been doing a u turn and not really stopping. From what I've read their powers only extend to the car parking areas and not public roads, but I am no where near an expert in this.

Thanks
Title: Re: Liverpool John Lennon Airport - NO STOPPING 'PCN' - ELMS LEGAL - County Claim
Post by: b789 on November 20, 2024, 07:10:41 pm
I'll put a defence you can use tomorrow. I'm just discussing this with a judge as the PoC are not the basic rubbish that we usually see. Still deficient but the argument about keeper liability and no contract are very strong.
Title: Re: Liverpool John Lennon Airport - NO STOPPING 'PCN' - ELMS LEGAL - County Claim
Post by: b789 on November 20, 2024, 03:39:48 pm
Can you provide a bit more info on the reason for stopping and the location you stopped at? Did the driver stop on the way in to the airport or on the way out?

This is so that the defence can be modified accordingly.
Title: Re: Liverpool John Lennon Airport - NO STOPPING 'PCN' - ELMS LEGAL - County Claim
Post by: stickycactus22 on November 20, 2024, 03:01:56 pm
Bump, any further advice on this?
Title: Re: Liverpool John Lennon Airport - NO STOPPING 'PCN' - ELMS LEGAL - County Claim
Post by: stickycactus22 on November 08, 2024, 07:55:04 pm
With an issue date of 30th October, you have until Monday 18th November to submit the AoS. Follow the instructions in this document to submit it:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xvqu3bask5m0zir/money-claim-online-How-to-Acknowledge.pdf?dl=0

Once you have submitted the AoS, you have until 4pm on Monday 2nd December to submit the defence.

Let us known when the AoS has been submitted and we'll advise on the defence.


Hi, I have submitted my AoS.

Title: Re: Liverpool John Lennon Airport - NO STOPPING 'PCN' - ELMS LEGAL - County Claim
Post by: b789 on November 05, 2024, 03:55:37 pm
With an issue date of 30th October, you have until Monday 18th November to submit the AoS. Follow the instructions in this document to submit it:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xvqu3bask5m0zir/money-claim-online-How-to-Acknowledge.pdf?dl=0

Once you have submitted the AoS, you have until 4pm on Monday 2nd December to submit the defence.

Let us known when the AoS has been submitted and we'll advise on the defence.
Title: Re: Liverpool John Lennon Airport - NO STOPPING 'PCN' - ELMS LEGAL - County Claim
Post by: stickycactus22 on November 05, 2024, 11:47:00 am
Hi,

The issue date of this is 30th October 2024.

I'm aware I have to submit my AOS within a certain time frame, which I am planning to do!
Title: Re: Liverpool John Lennon Airport - NO STOPPING 'PCN' - ELMS LEGAL - County Claim
Post by: DWMB2 on November 05, 2024, 11:17:08 am
Can you please show us a redacted version of the PoC document? Or, in the alternative, share with us the dates on the form.
Title: Liverpool John Lennon Airport - NO STOPPING 'PCN' - ELMS LEGAL - County Claim
Post by: stickycactus22 on November 04, 2024, 07:23:10 pm
Hi All,






Thanks for all your hard work fighting these scammers. I now require your assistance if possible. I have received a County Claim from VCS (ELMS representing them) and would like to fight this.




Particulars of claim: "The claim is for a breach of contract for breaching the terms and conditions set on private land. The Defendant's vehicle, xxx, was identified in the Liverpool John Lennon Airport on the 02/06/2022 in breach of the advertised terms and conditions; namely Stopping in a zone where stopping is prohibited. At all material times the Defendant was the registered keeper and/or driver. The terms and conditions upon entering private land were clearly displayed at the entrance and in prominent locations. The sign was the offer and the act of entering private land was the acceptance of the offer hereby entering into a contract by conduct. The signs specifically detail the terms and conditions and the consequences of failure to comply, namely a parking charge notice will be issued, and the Defendant has failed to settle the outstanding liability. The Claimant seeks the recovery of the parking charge notice, contractual costs and interest."




Amount Claimed: £170
Court Fee: £35
Legal Fees: £50
Total: £255





1. I may be wrong, but their powers are only within car-parks and not public roads?


2. This was 2 years ago, I do not have the original NtK as I have relocated.


3. Is this PoC vague? It doesn't have how long I was stopped for or anything? How can they prove I was stopped? using the evidence in the 'PCN'?


4. Also, how are they issuing a Parking Charge Notice for stopping? I wasn't parked..