Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: blackmarch on October 31, 2024, 11:57:46 am
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Hi,
This is a continuation of a previous post that I haven't received a reply to in some time. I have a minimal amount of time to decide whether I will pay the reduced amount or proceed to the tribunal.
This is the previous post for reference: https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/barking-dagenham-pcn-contravention-code-62-(parking-on-footpath)-location-becont/
I'll outline what's happened from start to finish below. I also have an imgur album with all correspondence and evidence related to the PCN.
Imgur album: https://imgur.com/a/EpbXWGc
Summary:
I was at Becontree Medical Centre and parked on my car the wide footpath like everyone else had done. There were no sign indicating that I couldn't and no marked bays for parking. I asked inside whether or not that would be a problem and was told that it's fine. Now, I've come out and found a PCN on my windscreen. Apparently, the lady at the reception tried coming out to stop the guy from giving me the PCN and was told that I wasn't allowed to park there since there were double yellow lines on the road. As far as I was aware, they only applied to the road, not the pavement since it offers no obstruction.
Parking on the pavement on that road is commonplace. In fact, you can see a sign specifically allowing it in Google street view. It's since then been removed but parking on the pavement is occurring all the way down the road. There was even a car parking behind me in the pictures the CEO took that wasn't ticketed.
Following advice from this forum, I submitted an informal appeal outlining my case which was denied in a completely nonsensical manner. The council essentially sent a prewritten response just to take up space on the page, it was irrelevant to my appeal.
Based on further advice, I looked around and found a way to send the letter for more information online. While I waited for a response, the Notice to Owner arrived. After I didn't receive a response, I sent the letter via mail. Bare in mind that the letter explicitly stated that this is not an appeal, simply a request for more information. 2 days later, I received a Notice of Rejected of Representation which completely ignored everything in the letter and simply regurgitated the same nonsense sent in response to the Informal Appeal.
I hope someone can advise me before the deadline. I really want to fight this but I'm also worried it will take too much time or be too difficult without understanding the laws at play.
Thanks in advance
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Their reply is nonsense. You're just taking the first steps to unravel their, shall we say, lack of understanding so that hopefully you could put this to them in your formal reps.
Virtually every London council misunderstands footway parking. It is a statutory prohibition but councils may exclude areas and/or place conditions but ONLY by the council passing a resolution to this effect. Not officers working with hearsay, anecdote and received wisdom.
As you've got time and I presume it's local pl look around and snap which, if any, of the regulatory footway parking signs are in the area.
But get your request in pl.
Hey, just bumping the post in case you missed it. Please get back to me ASAP. Thanks.
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Their reply is nonsense. You're just taking the first steps to unravel their, shall we say, lack of understanding so that hopefully you could put this to them in your formal reps.
Virtually every London council misunderstands footway parking. It is a statutory prohibition but councils may exclude areas and/or place conditions but ONLY by the council passing a resolution to this effect. Not officers working with hearsay, anecdote and received wisdom.
As you've got time and I presume it's local pl look around and snap which, if any, of the regulatory footway parking signs are in the area.
But get your request in pl.
Well, I must say that I am infuriated by what the council is attempting to do to me. It's obvious that everything that I sent them has been ignored and that I've been sent pre-written nonsense at every turn. I feel like I've wasted my time and am fighting a losing battle.
After we last spoke, I looked around and found a way to send the letter for more information online. While I waited for a response, the Notice to Owner arrived. After I didn't receive a response, I sent it via letter. Bare in mind that the letter explicitly stated that this is not an appeal. 2 days later, I received a Notice of Rejected of Representation which completely ignored everything in the letter and simply regurgitated the same nonsense sent in response to the Informal Appeal. I'm shocked that they can blatantly attempt to defraud members of the public in such a manner. This is clearly a money grab. Is there any point in trying to fight this? It seems like the whole system is broken if they're allowed to openly behave in such a manner.
I'm attaching images of all correspondence with the council from beginning to end below, just in case there's hope.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Their reply is nonsense. You're just taking the first steps to unravel their, shall we say, lack of understanding so that hopefully you could put this to them in your formal reps.
Virtually every London council misunderstands footway parking. It is a statutory prohibition but councils may exclude areas and/or place conditions but ONLY by the council passing a resolution to this effect. Not officers working with hearsay, anecdote and received wisdom.
As you've got time and I presume it's local pl look around and snap which, if any, of the regulatory footway parking signs are in the area.
But get your request in pl.
Morning. Yes, I am local. I've already walked down the street both ways and could not find any signage, even though cars are parked on the footway down the entire road. There are some marked bays around and some disabled bays too, but very few. The majority of cars are parked unmolested on the footway. I'll get the reply printed and mailed today. Hopefully, they're fast with their response. Cheers.
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Their reply is nonsense. You're just taking the first steps to unravel their, shall we say, lack of understanding so that hopefully you could put this to them in your formal reps.
Virtually every London council misunderstands footway parking. It is a statutory prohibition but councils may exclude areas and/or place conditions but ONLY by the council passing a resolution to this effect. Not officers working with hearsay, anecdote and received wisdom.
As you've got time and I presume it's local pl look around and snap which, if any, of the regulatory footway parking signs are in the area.
But get your request in pl.
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?
Their postal address is on the letter.
Ah, my bad. I got the response by email so that didn't even occur to me. I thought we were talking about some way to contact them online. The email they sent the response from is a "donotreply" email so that's not an option. Wouldn't a response by mail take too long? If this goes further, how good are my chances of winning?
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Their postal address is on the letter.
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That's fine. They're saying that parking on the footway at all is not permitted at the location. Play a straight bat and reply to them.
Re PCN *********
Thank you for your letter dated **** rejecting my representations.
Your reasoning requires me to request from you the council resolution which permits footway parking along Becontree Avenue and details of where the signs to which you refer are located.
I require this as soon as possible please. If you are unable to provide, then please pass this to the relevant department within the council.
For the avoidance of doubt, this is not a continuation of my representations but simply a request for information.
Yours....
Hi, how would I go about doing that? No means of communication was offered via the letter. It seems like they're saying pay or wait for the Notice of Owner to formally challenge the PCN.
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That's fine. They're saying that parking on the footway at all is not permitted at the location. Play a straight bat and reply to them.
Re PCN *********
Thank you for your letter dated **** rejecting my representations.
Your reasoning requires me to request from you the council resolution which permits footway parking along Becontree Avenue and details of where the signs to which you refer are located.
I require this as soon as possible please. If you are unable to provide, then please pass this to the relevant department within the council.
For the avoidance of doubt, this is not a continuation of my representations but simply a request for information.
Yours....
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Then turn the argument round, amend to remove reference to the current regulatory sign and change to weave in:
..in every one of the CEO's photos and in recent GSV shots of the area (enclosed) parking with 4 wheels on the footway is commonplace along Becontree and side roads. The authority cannot therefore claim that this is not permitted, although they do need to answer the question where the regulatory signs which convey this permission are located because there's none in the immediate area.
And as parking wholly on the footway is permitted - or if not permitted then tolerated as a matter of policy- then there was no justification in issuing the PCN in question because my car was simply parked wholly on the footway. The PCN must therefore be cancelled......
If I may try and pre-empt possible responses from the authority:
I was parked too far onto the footway: Cannot apply because in the absence of regulatory signs to the contrary there is no limit to where a vehicle may be parked on the footway;
My car was partially in contravention of the double yellow lines on the carriageway and therefore not permitted to be parked on the road at all, whether carriageway or footway: Correct. This was my mistake but this doesn't solve the authority's problem because in such a case the only grounds available are '01 - Parked in a restricted street etc....' and not Parked on the footway.
.....
and whatever other contextual amendments might be needed.
OP, the 14-day risk-free challenge period ends on 6 Nov.
Hi, sorry for the late reply. I received a reply from the council. They rejected the appeal. I'm attaching their response to this post. Do you think this is worth escalating? What are my chances? Thanks.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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I've looked at the traffic order map and there are various footway bays on Becontree Avenue including 4 wheel parking, resident bays and disabled bays but not that many.
This temporary order for the Coronation for part of the road suggests footway parking is allowed on Becontree perhaps by resolution. Footway parking signs are there on Google Maps but haphazard and may have not been maintained and removed and don't seem to correspond to the map - maybe the Consolidation 2016 Becontree Avenue order will reveal more but I can find only amendments.
Coronation
No Waiting and No Loading on Footway and Carriageway
Margery Road from its junction with Bonham Road to its eastern extent. Becontree Avenue from its junction with Hitherfield Road to the common boundary of No. 503 and No. 505 Becontree Avenue.
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Then turn the argument round, amend to remove reference to the current regulatory sign and change to weave in:
..in every one of the CEO's photos and in recent GSV shots of the area (enclosed) parking with 4 wheels on the footway is commonplace along Becontree and side roads. The authority cannot therefore claim that this is not permitted, although they do need to answer the question where the regulatory signs which convey this permission are located because there's none in the immediate area.
And as parking wholly on the footway is permitted - or if not permitted then tolerated as a matter of policy- then there was no justification in issuing the PCN in question because my car was simply parked wholly on the footway. The PCN must therefore be cancelled......
If I may try and pre-empt possible responses from the authority:
I was parked too far onto the footway: Cannot apply because in the absence of regulatory signs to the contrary there is no limit to where a vehicle may be parked on the footway;
My car was partially in contravention of the double yellow lines on the carriageway and therefore not permitted to be parked on the road at all, whether carriageway or footway: Correct. This was my mistake but this doesn't solve the authority's problem because in such a case the only grounds available are '01 - Parked in a restricted street etc....' and not Parked on the footway.
.....
and whatever other contextual amendments might be needed.
OP, the 14-day risk-free challenge period ends on 6 Nov.
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IMO,
Sadly, in the main London councils are ignorant about these matters but this doesn't stop them trying to apply their bespoke received-wisdom procedures.
But wrong is wrong.
The evidence - which as far as I can see is in pretty short supply on your side of the road- is:
Your car was parked with 4 wheels on the footway;
Opposite your car is a regulatory traffic sign which by law conveys the following meaning:
Vehicles may be parked wholly on the verge or footway
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/7/made
The sign does not allow councils to apply their own meaning, they've displayed the sign and must live with the consequences which in your case are that you parked wholly on the footway and therefore were acting within the permission granted by the sign.
So, why were you issued with a PCN?
It would appear that there's a belief in the council's mind that you were parked 'too far' onto the footway.
Tango sierra.
The sign opposite says you can park wholly on the footway without limit and not be in contravention of what is otherwise a London-wide prohibition on footway parking.*
So, what's the best way to deal with this, recognising that they won't want to admit that your interpretation is correct.
I parked as seen in the CEO's photos which unfortunately do not capture the permissive regulatory sign immediately opposite my car which for your convenience I have included**.
As the authority should know, this sign conveys the following lawful exception to the London-wide prohibition on footway parking:
Diagram 668 - Vehicles may be parked wholly on the verge or footway
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/7/made
As my car was parked wholly on the footway then clearly a contravention could not and therefore did not occur as I was acting in accordance with the permission granted by the sign. Consequently the PCN must be cancelled.
If I may try and pre-empt possible responses from you:
I was parked too far onto the footway: Cannot apply because there is no limit to the permission granted by the traffic sign placed by the council provided a vehicle is wholly on the footway.
My car was partially in contravention of the double yellow lines on the carriageway and therefore not permitted to be parked on the road at all, whether carriageway or footway*: Correct, but this doesn't solve the authority's problem because in such a case the only grounds available are '01 - Parked in a restricted street etc....' and not Parked on the footway.
*- don't do this again or you could be issued with a PCN for contravening the waiting restriction conveyed by the DYL which applies to the whole road, carriageway and footway.
** - make sure any photo captures the sign and where you were parked in one shot, make life easy for the challenged wee souls!
Bad news. I went down to site of the incident and it seems like the sign was removed. The GSV image is out of date.
However, it seems like everyone is still parking on the footpath without consequences. In fact, when I got a ticket, there was a car parked behind me that was left untouched. I attached some photos of the street as it is today. How should I proceed?
[attachment deleted by admin]
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No.
Awesome, thanks!
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No.
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You to the authority.
Change 'you' to 'authority' if it makes it clearer.
If we point the double yellow line out, could they change the PCN to be about that instead?
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You to the authority.
Change 'you' to 'authority' if it makes it clearer.
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IMO,
Sadly, in the main London councils are ignorant about these matters but this doesn't stop them trying to apply their bespoke received-wisdom procedures.
But wrong is wrong.
The evidence - which as far as I can see is in pretty short supply on your side of the road- is:
Your car was parked with 4 wheels on the footway;
Opposite your car is a regulatory traffic sign which by law conveys the following meaning:
Vehicles may be parked wholly on the verge or footway
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/7/made
The sign does not allow councils to apply their own meaning, they've displayed the sign and must live with the consequences which in your case are that you parked wholly on the footway and therefore were acting within the permission granted by the sign.
So, why were you issued with a PCN?
It would appear that there's a belief in the council's mind that you were parked 'too far' onto the footway.
Tango sierra.
The sign opposite says you can park wholly on the footway without limit and not be in contravention of what is otherwise a London-wide prohibition on footway parking.*
So, what's the best way to deal with this, recognising that they won't want to admit that your interpretation is correct.
I parked as seen in the CEO's photos which unfortunately do not capture the permissive regulatory sign immediately opposite my car which for your convenience I have included**.
As the authority should know, this sign conveys the following lawful exception to the London-wide prohibition on footway parking:
Diagram 668 - Vehicles may be parked wholly on the verge or footway
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/7/made
As my car was parked wholly on the footway then clearly a contravention could not and therefore did not occur as I was acting in accordance with the permission granted by the sign. Consequently the PCN must be cancelled.
If I may try and pre-empt possible responses from you:
I was parked too far onto the footway: Cannot apply because there is no limit to the permission granted by the traffic sign placed by the council provided a vehicle is wholly on the footway.
My car was partially in contravention of the double yellow lines on the carriageway and therefore not permitted to be parked on the road at all, whether carriageway or footway*: Correct, but this doesn't solve the authority's problem because in such a case the only grounds available are '01 - Parked in a restricted street etc....' and not Parked on the footway.
*- don't do this again or you could be issued with a PCN for contravening the waiting restriction conveyed by the DYL which applies to the whole road, carriageway and footway.
** - make sure any photo captures the sign and where you were parked in one shot, make life easy for the challenged wee souls!
Hi, thanks for the reply. I'm going out in a bit so I'll try to get back there and take a photo of where I parked including the sign.
Just to be clear, when you wrote "If I may try and pre-empt possible responses from you", were you speaking to me or is that for the reply to the council?
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IMO,
Sadly, in the main London councils are ignorant about these matters but this doesn't stop them trying to apply their bespoke received-wisdom procedures.
But wrong is wrong.
The evidence - which as far as I can see is in pretty short supply on your side of the road- is:
Your car was parked with 4 wheels on the footway;
Opposite your car is a regulatory traffic sign which by law conveys the following meaning:
Vehicles may be parked wholly on the verge or footway
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/7/made
The sign does not allow councils to apply their own meaning, they've displayed the sign and must live with the consequences which in your case are that you parked wholly on the footway and therefore were acting within the permission granted by the sign.
So, why were you issued with a PCN?
It would appear that there's a belief in the council's mind that you were parked 'too far' onto the footway.
Tango sierra.
The sign opposite says you can park wholly on the footway without limit and not be in contravention of what is otherwise a London-wide prohibition on footway parking.*
So, what's the best way to deal with this, recognising that they won't want to admit that your interpretation is correct.
I parked as seen in the CEO's photos which unfortunately do not capture the permissive regulatory sign immediately opposite my car which for your convenience I have included**.
As the authority should know, this sign conveys the following lawful exception to the London-wide prohibition on footway parking:
Diagram 668 - Vehicles may be parked wholly on the verge or footway
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/7/made
As my car was parked wholly on the footway then clearly a contravention could not and therefore did not occur as I was acting in accordance with the permission granted by the sign. Consequently the PCN must be cancelled.
If I may try and pre-empt possible responses from you:
I was parked too far onto the footway: Cannot apply because there is no limit to the permission granted by the traffic sign placed by the council provided a vehicle is wholly on the footway.
My car was partially in contravention of the double yellow lines on the carriageway and therefore not permitted to be parked on the road at all, whether carriageway or footway*: Correct, but this doesn't solve the authority's problem because in such a case the only grounds available are '01 - Parked in a restricted street etc....' and not Parked on the footway.
*- don't do this again or you could be issued with a PCN for contravening the waiting restriction conveyed by the DYL which applies to the whole road, carriageway and footway.
** - make sure any photo captures the sign and where you were parked in one shot, make life easy for the challenged wee souls!
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I'd say wrong contravention - could have been done for double yellows but footway parking is allowed or common practice on both sides of road. There may have been marked bays a long time ago.
(https://i.ibb.co/61f2YBp/bark3.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/QKvVyXz/bark2.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/f9kLTx3/bark1.jpg)
So what do I do now?
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https://maps.app.goo.gl/E7724S2fWBWy5uVh9
I was under the impression you were parked on the same side as the Centre?
I could not see a sign on that side of the road, but it is possible that the TRO/TMO and council resolution disallowing the ban on footpath parking did so on both sides: you must check.
But you must submit some sort of challenge within the discount period: if you do so, most Councils will re-offer the discount when/if they decline the challenge.
Yes, I parked on the other side. I just thought that the sign applied to both sides and showed that you're allowed to park on the footpath. I might be mistaken.
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I'd say wrong contravention - could have been done for double yellows but footway parking is allowed or common practice on both sides of road. There may have been marked bays a long time ago.
(https://i.ibb.co/61f2YBp/bark3.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/QKvVyXz/bark2.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/f9kLTx3/bark1.jpg)
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https://maps.app.goo.gl/E7724S2fWBWy5uVh9
I was under the impression you were parked on the same side as the Centre?
I could not see a sign on that side of the road, but it is possible that the TRO/TMO and council resolution disallowing the ban on footpath parking did so on both sides: you must check.
But you must submit some sort of challenge within the discount period: if you do so, most Councils will re-offer the discount when/if they decline the challenge.
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The PCN was issued, not for parking in an area governed by DYLs, but wholly or partly on the footway.
Please post the back of the PCN and any Council photos, with a GSV link to the location.
Please also provide your PCN number and your reg.mark.
Footway parking has been banned in London since 1974, except where specifically permitted (by TRO and signs).
Here you go.
PCN Number: BZ61066578
Vehicle Registration: FL13PKO
GSV: https://maps.app.goo.gl/V5c3UUw7Ry5CkMXdA
I've also re-uploaded the PCN photo uncensored alongside the picture of the back.
While I was getting the link to the GSV, I noticed that there is indeed a sign saying you can park on the footpath. I've taken a screenshot and attached that too.
Cheers
[attachment deleted by admin]
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The PCN was issued, not for parking in an area governed by DYLs, but wholly or partly on the footway.
Please post the back of the PCN and any Council photos, with a GSV link to the location.
Please also provide your PCN number and your reg.mark.
Footway parking has been banned in London since 1974, except where specifically permitted (by TRO and signs).
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Hi,
I was at Becontree Medical Centre and parked on my car the wide footpath like everyone else had done. There were no sign indicating that I couldn't and no marked bays for parking. I asked inside whether or not that would be a problem and was told that it's fine. Now, I've come out and found a PCN on my windscreen. Apparently, the lady at the reception tried coming out to stop the guy from giving me the PCN and was told that I wasn't allowed to park there since there were double yellow lines on the road. As far as I was aware, they only applied to the road, not the pavement since it offers no obstruction. I've added pictures of where I parked for reference.
I wasn't sure what to do since I know I'm pretty sure I'm not in the wrong here, and eventually found my way here. I spent a week researching independently before finding this site so I hope you guys can advise me before I'm forced to pay.
Thanks
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