Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: pred02 on October 29, 2024, 09:36:11 pm
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Thanks all for your help. Lambeth cancelled the penalty notice.
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I live at 68 Bavent Road and hold a residents permit.
The properties in the road are numbered sequentially albeit on opposite sides i.e. my side runs from 55A to 82(55,56,57..etc) while that opposite runs from 1-54.
On my side there is a parking place which extends from no.61 to no.84. Within this the council have placed 3 traffic signs pursuant to their duty to place such traffic signs in such positions as the order making authority may consider requisite for securing that adequate information as to the effect of the order is made available to persons using the road;
These are situated o/s nos. 61,65 and 75.
On the day in question, I parked o/s no.68, took a glance at the nearest traffic sign and went to my house. When I returned to my car I noticed the PCN. I looked around and finally found a single suspension sign placed o/s no.61. This meant that despite the suspended area falling between nos. 64 and 74 and there being 2 traffic signs within or in the vicinity of this area the council decided to place a single suspension sign outside the suspended area.
I refer you to the council's regulatory duty above which, as you should know, continues with 'c)in a case where the order revokes, amends or alters the application of a previous order, the removal or replacement of existing traffic signs as the authority considers requisite to avoid confusion to road users by signs being left in the wrong positions.
A suspension 'amends' the application of the traffic order and yet despite this the council have adopted a lower standard of signing - one which I assert is not open to them and unlawful- by placing only a single sign which was not within or in the vicinity of the area to be suspended.
The responsibility of a motorist is to refer to the nearest applicable traffic sign(in my case o/s no.65) which I did, and not to 'traipse the streets' to use a phrase adopted by adjudicators looking for another which in any event in this case would simply have revealed an unamended traffic sign o/s no.75.
The council have failed to meet their regulatory duty under regulation 18 of the Local Authorities' Traffic Order etc. Regulations and consequently have no lawful authority to demand a penalty which must be cancelled.
My views on a longer version.
OP, are the specific details correct?
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Thanks. I see I can make representation online. Happy to send informal representation plus paragraph above as well as photos taken the night off showing no signage at 65 and 75. Anything to add before I submit?
Post your proposed text for a review, if you want.
I reside in Lambeth and have a resident permit with permission to park on Bavent Road.
On the day in question, I arrived at my house on Bavent Road, parked and went to my house at 68 Bavent Road. Neither of the parking bay signs near my car, which are located at 65 or 75, had any temporary suspension sign attached to them. A motorist is entitled to take the parking conditions on the bay sign nearest to his car on the side where parked as valid.
In view of the failure of the council adequately to sign the suspension, I request that the PCN be cancelled.
The council in their response to my informal challenge have totally ignored the points made in that challenge, thus committing a procedural impropriety of failure to consider, one of their statutory duties within the relevant regulations.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Thanks. I see I can make representation online. Happy to send informal representation plus paragraph above as well as photos taken the night off showing no signage at 65 and 75. Anything to add before I submit?
Post your proposed text for a review, if you want.
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Thanks. I see I can make representation online. Happy to send informal representation plus paragraph above as well as photos taken the night off showing no signage at 65 and 75. Anything to add before I submit?
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I have now received the Notice to Owner. I need to fill out a form for making representation. I need to fill out Grounds for representation, give evidence of detail and submit supporting evidence.
1. What representation should I select?
- The alleged contravention did not occur
- the traffic order which is alleged to have contravened is invalid
- there has been a procedural impropriety on the part of enforcement authority
2. In Section 3, what detail of representation should I include above amd beyond the informal statement I included above?
3. What additional evidence should I include - e.g photographs of signs near the parked car with no notice on them?
Thanks
For 1, select
"alleged contravention did no occur"
and
"there has been a procedural impropriety...etc"
(you are not restricted to a single statutory ground)
For 2
You informal reps, plus "the council in their response to my informal challenge have totally ignored the points made in that challenge, thus committing a procedural impropriety of failure to consider, one of their statutory duties within the relevant regulations.
For 3
Photographs essential
Others may suggest additional items.
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I have now received the Notice to Owner. I need to fill out a form for making representation. I need to fill out Grounds for representation, give evidence of detail and submit supporting evidence.
1. What representation should I select?
- The alleged contravention did not occur
- the traffic order which is alleged to have contravened is invalid
- there has been a procedural impropriety on the part of enforcement authority
2. In Section 3, what detail of representation should I include above amd beyond the informal statement I included above?
3. What additional evidence should I include - e.g photographs of signs near the parked car with no notice on them?
Thanks
[attachment deleted by admin]
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I will challenge the ticket. So there is no action for me until I get the Notice to Owner? Then I can submit the formal rep online, should I submit anything different that in the informal rep. Is the entire process online or via post or do I need to go in person?
Firtly, are you the owner, and hold the V5 Registration Certificate for the vehicle ? The Notice to Owner is sent to the name and address on the V5. Is this name and address correct and up-to-date ?
Your informal reps will need to be beefed-up a bit to be formal reps, but not by too much. The NtO process is that they send you it in the post, and you can normally respond on-line. This may be where it gets more interesting as some council seem to have totally cocked-up there on-line pages for submitting representations, but we won't know until we see the NtO.
If you get to London Tribunals, you can register an appeal on line, and select a hearing or an adjudication on the papers by an adjudicator. Do NOT select the latter, it is of paramount importance that you be present. However, no need to trek up to their offices, as most appeals are done over the phone nowadays. The councils almost never turn up, BTW. Some contributors here may offer to represent you on a pro bono basis, as they like to see the councils squirm.
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Well, it's up to you, but they have sent you their usual Fob-Off letter that does not address in any way the points made in your reps. Pay up if you want, but if it were me, I'd be waiting for the Notice to Owner, and submitting formal reps, and if again rejected, take them to London Tribunals. If councils decide to suspend parking they have a duty to sign it adequately. They failed to do so.
I will challenge the ticket. So there is no action for me until I get the Notice to Owner? Then I can submit the formal rep online, should I submit anything different that in the informal rep. Is the entire process online or via post or do I need to go in person?
The reason I ask is that a few years back I took a big shipping company to small claims court. At the end, I was succesful but it was quite painful with different forms needing to be in by different times and then having to go to court versus a big shot law firm. Lots of stress!
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Well, it's up to you, but they have sent you their usual Fob-Off letter that does not address in any way the points made in your reps. Pay up if you want, but if it were me, I'd be waiting for the Notice to Owner, and submitting formal reps, and if again rejected, take them to London Tribunals. If councils decide to suspend parking they have a duty to sign it adequately. They failed to do so.
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Hi,
I received the attached rejection by the council. What is the next step in the appeal process? Do I have to make an appeal in person? I am weighting the effort versus paying double jeopardy for the fine.
Thanks,
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Thank you. I launched a informal complain will keep you posted.
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This is an informal challenge, 99% of which are rejected by councils no matter how valid because they know that most people then cough-up. You have to be made of stern stuff to stand up to council shenanigans. You live at 68, so are between two signs for the bay, neither of which had a suspension sign, so you have a very strong case to take them all the way to adjudication if necessary The maximum amount in play at the adjudicators is the penalty charge, there are no extra costs. For the council, they have to pay a fee to the adjudicators so if they lose they council is out of pocket.
If the suspension sign is still in place, take photos of the two signs without and put them in your reps.
I suspect they will just bluff their way on this one until you register an appeal at London Tribunals then not contest. This is blatant gaming of the system, but there are no penalties in law to stop them, other than the adjudicator fee, payable if they win or lose
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Thanks - I usually tone down the language a bit but could be a cultural thing (US vs. UK) when appealing in these processes.
What kind of evidence or photographs should I provide?
I reside in Lambeth and have a resident permit with permission to park on Bavent Road. I have no prior park convictions and always am diligent about following parking rules.
On the day in question, I arrived at my house on Bavent Road, parked and went to my house at 68 Bavent Road. Neither of the parking bay signs near my car, which are located at 65 or 75, had any temporary suspension sign attached to them. A motorist is entitled to take the parking conditions on the bay sign nearest to his car on the side where parked as valid.
On the grounds to inadequately signed suspension, I kindly urge to consider PCN to be cancelled.
In view of the failure of the council adequately to sign the suspension, I request that the PCN be cancelled.
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I reside in Lambeth and have a resident permit with permission to park on Bavent Road.
I have no prior park convictions and always am diligent about following parking rules.
On the day in question, I arrived at my house on Bavent Road, parked and went to my house at 68 Bavent Road. Neither of the parking bay signs near my car, which are located at 65 or 75, had any temporary suspension sign attached to them. A motorist is entitled to take the parking conditions on the bay sign nearest to his car on the side where parked as valid.
On the grounds to inadequately signed suspension, I kindly urge to consider PCN to be cancelled.
In view of the failure of the council adequately to sign the suspension, I request that the PCN be cancelled.
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Below is the draft letter I would like to submit to Lambeth today - please let me know of any thoughts.
Dear Sirs
Re PCN LJ332311242 dated 29/10/2024 served at Bavent Road.
I reside in Lambeth and have a resident permit with permission to park on Bavent Road. I have no prior park convictions and always am diligent about following parking rules.
On the day in question, I arrived at my house on Bavent Road, parked and went to my house at 68 Bavent Road. Neither of the parking bay signs near my car, which are located at 65 or 75, had any temporary suspension sign attached to them. A motorist is entitled to take the parking conditions on the bay sign nearest to his car on the side where parked as valid.
On the grounds to inadequately signed suspension, I kindly urge to consider PCN to be cancelled.
Yours faithfully
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The suspension was inadequately signed, no doubt at all, and you should submit representations on this basis.
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Hi,
I have not submitted an appeal yet but would like to do so today. Here is the information below
The parking place extends from no. 61 to no. 82.
There are 3 traffic signs within the bay situated at nos. 61, 65, 75 .....
There were suspension signs placed on the following traffic signs 61
The suspended area was 62 to 74.
My car was parked outside no. 68.
Thank you.
Sorry, but can't see how this helps the OP as the appeal was refused.
OP, can we pl just get facts in play rather than general descriptions.
The parking place extends from no. ** to no. ***.
There are ** traffic signs within the bay situated at nos. **, **, ** .....
There were suspension signs placed on the following traffic signs ******
The suspended area was *** to ***.
My car was parked outside no. ***.
From the above it follows that ********(to be completed after you've inserted the above.
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Sorry, but can't see how this helps the OP as the appeal was refused.
OP, can we pl just get facts in play rather than general descriptions.
The parking place extends from no. ** to no. ***.
There are ** traffic signs within the bay situated at nos. **, **, ** .....
There were suspension signs placed on the following traffic signs ******
The suspended area was *** to ***.
My car was parked outside no. ***.
From the above it follows that ********(to be completed after you've inserted the above.
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Thanks. Is there a rule that a notice must be attached to the closest pay where its suspended? If there a law that I can reference or a website it would probably help with the argument.
I later noticed that many other cars were ticketed, so it is clear that it was not clear signage. Would this help in this case?
Should I submit any photos to help with my argument?
Recent tribunal decision below but this is a common one and council officers are a bit thick if they keep trying it on. But the evidence needs to be solid.
I'm not sure if it is a legal requirement though. It certainly means suspensions on more than one sign if appropriate.
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2240421901
Mr Dumbuya was scheduled for a personal hearing today but he has not attended and so the appeal is being decided on the evidence presented.
This PCN was issued for the alleged contravention of being parked wholly or partly in a suspended bay or space in Digby Street on 5 March 2024.
I have looked at the CEO's photographs and these show that Mr Dumbuya’s car was parked in a bay in Digby Street. There is an image showing a suspension sign attached to a post some car lengths forward of where Mr Dumbuya’s car was parked. The suspension notice stated that the whole multi-bay was suspended for filming at all times on 5 and 6 March 2024.
Mr Dumbuya appeals because he says that the signage for the suspension was not adequate and that the single suspension sign was displayed at the extreme end of the multi-bay. Mr Dumbuya says that he has a mobility impairment and that it has a negative impact for disabled people to have only a single sign for a long bay which accommodates 8 to 10 vehicles. He says that the Council has now installed additional signs for the bay.
The legal requirement is for the Council to attach the suspension notice to the same post that carries the nearest time plate for the bay so that motorists will be alerted to the suspension on checking the time plate. It is the motorist’s responsibility to check the time plate on parking. It is not disputed that the notice was attached to the post which carried the time plate for the bay and it follows that the alleged contravention did occur.
I am, however, asking the Council to reconsider cancellation of this PCN on the grounds that a single sign for such a long bay is likely to place a disabled person with a serious mobility problem at a disadvantage in ascertaining bay restrictions.
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Recent tribunal decision below but this is a common one and council officers are a bit thick if they keep trying it on. But the evidence needs to be solid.
I'm not sure if it is a legal requirement though. It certainly means suspensions on more than one sign if appropriate.
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2240421901
Mr Dumbuya was scheduled for a personal hearing today but he has not attended and so the appeal is being decided on the evidence presented.
This PCN was issued for the alleged contravention of being parked wholly or partly in a suspended bay or space in Digby Street on 5 March 2024.
I have looked at the CEO's photographs and these show that Mr Dumbuya’s car was parked in a bay in Digby Street. There is an image showing a suspension sign attached to a post some car lengths forward of where Mr Dumbuya’s car was parked. The suspension notice stated that the whole multi-bay was suspended for filming at all times on 5 and 6 March 2024.
Mr Dumbuya appeals because he says that the signage for the suspension was not adequate and that the single suspension sign was displayed at the extreme end of the multi-bay. Mr Dumbuya says that he has a mobility impairment and that it has a negative impact for disabled people to have only a single sign for a long bay which accommodates 8 to 10 vehicles. He says that the Council has now installed additional signs for the bay.
The legal requirement is for the Council to attach the suspension notice to the same post that carries the nearest time plate for the bay so that motorists will be alerted to the suspension on checking the time plate. It is the motorist’s responsibility to check the time plate on parking. It is not disputed that the notice was attached to the post which carried the time plate for the bay and it follows that the alleged contravention did occur.
I am, however, asking the Council to reconsider cancellation of this PCN on the grounds that a single sign for such a long bay is likely to place a disabled person with a serious mobility problem at a disadvantage in ascertaining bay restrictions.
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So here are some suggested reps: -
Dear Sirs
Re PCN <number> dated <dd/mm/yyyy> served at Bavent Road
I deny liability for payment of the above PCN on the grounds that the contravention did not occur
On the day in question, I arrived at my house on Bavent Road, parked and went to my house. Neither of the parking bay signs near my car had any suspension sign attached to them. A motorist is entitled to take the parking conditions on the bay sign nearest to his car on the side where parked as valid. Neither of the signs nearest my car had any temporary suspension signs on them.
In view of the clear council failure adequately to sign the suspension, the PCN must be cancelled.
Yours faithfully
Thank you. Do you think I have a decent chance of winning this? I don't see the downside of not trying to challenge with Lambeth at least in the first instance as even if I lose I am entitled to the discounted fee.
The violation should now be visible on the portal, which was down yesterday.
Thank you.
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So here are some suggested reps: -
Dear Sirs
Re PCN <number> dated <dd/mm/yyyy> served at Bavent Road
I deny liability for payment of the above PCN on the grounds that the contravention did not occur
On the day in question, I arrived at my house on Bavent Road, parked and went to my house. Neither of the parking bay signs near my car had any suspension sign attached to them. A motorist is entitled to take the parking conditions on the bay sign nearest to his car on the side where parked as valid. Neither of the signs nearest my car had any temporary suspension signs on them.
In view of the clear council failure adequately to sign the suspension, the PCN must be cancelled.
Yours faithfully
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Ok, so would you have passed one of the signs which had no suspension sign on it after parking your car ?
Technically I parked right in front of my house so can go straight in without passing any signs, however if I was to go 5 meter s in either direction I would pass either of the 2 signs that has no suspension sign. I would have to walk down the street in the specific direction 20 meters to see the sign.
If I was to walk upward in the other direction I would not pass any signs with notice.
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Ok, so would you have passed one of the signs which had no suspension sign on it after parking your car ?
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Attached the unredacted PCN.
The one you've posted is redacted...If you read the 'read this first' sticky you'll find out how to post more pics.
I apologise. I've now updated with Google Drive pictures that show full information on the PCN.
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Attached the unredacted PCN.
The one you've posted is redacted...If you read the 'read this first' sticky you'll find out how to post more pics.
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Hi,
I've updated the picture with both sides of the unredacted PCN.
Correct there are two signs closer to the vehicle that do not have signage on that. I've posted the picture.
The sign with the suspended parking is 20 meters away.
Not sure when the sign was put up.
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So, looking at your photos and also GSV, the suspension sign was mounted on the lamppost that held the parking bay sign :-
https://maps.app.goo.gl/eTbKHqGJ7fMZH24T6
However, there is also a bay sign outside No 66 too :-
https://maps.app.goo.gl/rUpfi9rk8xiZwLs27
Did that also have a suspension sign on it ? If it didn't you can claim the suspension was not correctly signed because you parked and saw that sign as you walked past it after parking the car, and there was no suspension sign on it.
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Please to repost both sides of the unredacted PCN.
The PCN is dated 29th Oct.
Dpo you know what date the suspension sign was erected?
On what date did you park the car?
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Hi,
I am a resident of Lambeth and parked in front of my house (68). I received a ticket for a temporarily suspended parking bay notice.
There was signage erected however I could not see as it was on lamp post down the street or about 20 meters away from the vehicle.
Do I have a right to appeal the case or is it just a waste of time?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1UjnzIx4s9Pyzprfb8z1qVB-kydY9yxzc/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1p6FZkhEdT0WYew9sV6r6IPAADneaOl8z/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bOsexlYzo1F5uBIJDqUE_Ci82La85VJg/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1l6khzB8U5SlFVjjQPJCJ-rE-UrYOCe8E/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zAci2tU6qwugCgxkgvwoT1u3_SwjwPIA/view?usp=drive_link
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1TU1eDv8DD9DbAd9Vu9UUi83zKpL5QgPY/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jL-gonhfPmdl47GGFYJvYCBLwcNaP9eN/view?usp=drive_link
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zAci2tU6qwugCgxkgvwoT1u3_SwjwPIA/view?usp=sharing
Thank you,