Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: motion on October 27, 2024, 11:48:51 pm
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Not sure where this case has got to in the last couple of months, but this recent blog post by Mr Mustard seems relevant:
https://lbbspending.blogspot.com/2024/12/being-cute-turns-expensive.html
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I plan to appeal to tribunal as i still have 20 days to do so. PS- the driver paid £65 already - can still file tribunal case?
- Yes same vehicle and same person. Correct, we maintain two hire agreements, and yes they will have different return dates. The PCN was from Local Authority CAmden Council - But can the adjudicator rely on previous PCNs? is it not the case that if the PCN is paid then the matter is closed? How far back can the council compare PCNs? is it not just the case of council treating each case on its own merit? But if i pay doesn't it mean everytime i send a hire agreement they will compare with previous PCN, have they now invalidated our hire agreements going forward - despite us having agreement with hirer
If the discount was on offer when the driver paid the £65 then the payment would have closed the case. There is probably wording to that effect on the PCN and/or in the Notice of Rejection. We can't tell as you have witheld some of the NoR. You would need to get Camden to re-open the case if you want to appeal.
If Camden have accepted the £65 as part payment then the hire company could appeal but if the company lose the company will be ordered to pay the balance still owing. IE another £65. How or if you can recover that from the hirer/driver is a different kettle of fish.
I guess that the most important aspect of this is to get clarity on whether your arrangements with parallel hire agreements are legal? I suspect not.
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Is it the case that the vehicle hirer in the current case is the same person or entity to whom liability was recently transferred for PCNs CU67189608 & CU67327869?
For that matter is the same vehicle involved?
As I understand you the hire company maintains two discrete hire agreements in respect of any given hire of one of your vehicles? Upon receipt of a PCN one or the other agrrement will be sent with representations to the Enforcement Authority depending on the legislation that the PCN is issued under? The hire agreements will have differing rental periods?
However the bottom line is that you, the hirer, have a Notice of Rejection in respect of a PCN that the hire company received. This should be a London Locsl Authorities and Transport for London PCN. I plan to appeal to tribunal as i still have 20 days to do so. PS- the driver paid £65 already - can still file tribunal case?
The options on the table are pay-up or appeal to the Adjudicator. The Adjudicator can decide if the Hire Agreement that you provided to Camden is valid or not. You'll be in for the £130 penalty if you lose.
I would register an appeal. State that you rely on your representations and that further evidence may follow. Ask for a personal hearing, you can vary this to a telephone hearing later. Use the time to research the status of the hire agreements.
- Yes same vehicle and same person. Correct, we maintain two hire agreements, and yes they will have different return dates. The PCN was from Local Authority CAmden Council - But can the adjudicator rely on previous PCNs? is it not the case that if the PCN is paid then the matter is closed? How far back can the council compare PCNs? is it not just the case of council treating each case on its own merit? But if i pay doesn't it mean everytime i send a hire agreement they will compare with previous PCN, have they now invalidated our hire agreements going forward - despite us having agreement with hirer
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...'I would register an appeal.'....
...+1, assuming of course that this is still an option!
OP, your ability to appeal is time-limited so post the full NOR and let's see by when your appeal must be registered otherwise we're blind and you could just be wasting precious time.
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Is it the case that the vehicle hirer in the current case is the same person or entity to whom liability was recently transferred for PCNs CU67189608 & CU67327869?
For that matter is the same vehicle involved?
As I understand you the hire company maintains two discrete hire agreements in respect of any given hire of one of your vehicles? Upon receipt of a PCN one or the other agrrement will be sent with representations to the Enforcement Authority depending on the legislation that the PCN is issued under? The hire agreements will have differing rental periods?
However the bottom line is that you, the hirer, have a Notice of Rejection in respect of a PCN that the hire company received. This should be a London Locsl Authorities and Transport for London PCN.
The options on the table are pay-up or appeal to the Adjudicator. The Adjudicator can decide if the Hire Agreement that you provided to Camden is valid or not. You'll be in for the £130 penalty if you lose.
I would register an appeal. State that you rely on your representations and that further evidence may follow. Ask for a personal hearing, you can vary this to a telephone hearing later. Use the time to research the status of the hire agreements.
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No it's not. The point I'm trying to make is that you have posted part of a 'Notice of Rejection' so we don't know when this was issued or what it says about appealing or the legislation under which it was issued and therefore what it should state or whether you've missed this boat......
So, post the full notice and let's see where you are.
They rejected the representation and have sent us TRibunal Form
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No it's not. The point I'm trying to make is that you have posted part of a 'Notice of Rejection' so we don't know when this was issued or what it says about appealing or the legislation under which it was issued and therefore what it should state or whether you've missed this boat......
So, post the full notice and let's see where you are.
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Surely it's not a bus lane contravention: Using a route restricted to ......
But the issue is the hire agreement dates not the contravention
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Surely it's not a bus lane contravention: Using a route restricted to ......
But the issue is they are comparing two PCNs..
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Others probably more familiar with the precise legislation but from my googling, seems to relate to section 66 of this act
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/53/section/66
Cant see anything there which says you can't have more than one hire agreement but only read it quickly. Reads to me that all long as you furnish a hire agreement that meets the criteria it should be ok.
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Surely it's not a bus lane contravention: Using a route restricted to ......
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Just so I can understand the circumstances properly, are you saying this is a hire period in excess of six months (with a corresponding agreement), but in order to fit in with non bus lane PCNs, you have another hire agreement running in parallel of less than six months duration which (I presume) is renewed upon expiry?
Thanks Mr CHips - exactly this. Yes as can be seen in the second picture - we add 5 monthly durations - and send a copy to hirer
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Just so I can understand the circumstances properly, are you saying this is a hire period in excess of six months (with a corresponding agreement), but in order to fit in with non bus lane PCNs, you have another hire agreement running in parallel of less than six months duration which (I presume) is renewed upon expiry?
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For context we keep two Hire agreements one for buslane and one for normal PCN to allow for easy tranfer of PCNs
How does this work, does the customer not sign the agreement when hiring, or do you get them to sign both documents?
We ask customer to sign a templated one then we add dates or renewals and send a copy to hirer - hirer are ok with the changes and updates. We keep two hire agreements and send one for buslane for buslkane offence as this needs to be >6months while for other offence we send the normal <than 6 months in order to facilitate transfer of liability
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Please see below two hire agreements
(https://i.imgur.com/whWZyTu.jpeg)
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I'm not sure the rejection is based on specific legislation OP. I think the authority just thinks it is smelling a rat and has decided to reject on this basis.
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For context we keep two Hire agreements one for buslane and one for normal PCN to allow for easy tranfer of PCNs
How does this work, does the customer not sign the agreement when hiring, or do you get them to sign both documents?
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You've not posted the docs, so at the moment we cannot examine the point they're making.
As this is the LLA Act you need to post the full NoR because your next step is either appeal to the adjudicator or pay. You can no longer dispute this with the council.
And leave in all dates pl.
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The are saying the hire dates are different - but hire dates are different because they compared two different hire agreement from two different PCNs - the hire agreement in question has no issues on its own merit. It will only be an issue if they compared with a previous PCN of same car. But what legislation allows them to compare the two PCNs one closed and paid for? The hirer raised no objection
For context we keep two Hire agreements one for buslane and one for normal PCN to allow for easy tranfer of PCNs
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Explain pl.
In what way did the hire agreement in this case cause the authority to believe that it was not a proper document for these purposes?
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(https://i.imgur.com/yFaRqS0.jpeg)
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Don't tell us, show us!
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THanks. The council is comparing the sent Hire agreement with previous PCNs
(https://i.imgur.com/YxnQJnX.jpeg)
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Please post up the Notice of Rejection that you received from Camden.
Instructions for posting documents can be found in the READ THIS FIRST - **BEFORE POSTING YOUR CASE!** (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/) sticky post at the top of the forum.
At first sight something is amiss. There either is or there isn't a compliant hire agreement in place. A prior hire agreement shouldn't have anything to do with the current PCN.
This also sounds like you'll have to appeal the case to the independent Adjudicator. You, in this case, being the hire company since liability has not been transferred to the hirer.
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Hi everyone,
We are a vehicle hire firm, and we recently encountered an issue with a London council rejecting our representation to transfer liability for a new PCN to the hirer. The council's reason was that the hire agreement for the current PCN did not match an agreement related to a past, unrelated PCN (was paid and closed).
For context, with the hirer’s permission, we provided two separate hire agreements: one specifically for bus lane PCNs and another for standard traffic PCNs. This allows us to transfere liability to the hirer in all circumstances.
This raises a few questions, and we'd appreciate any insights:
Are councils allowed to compare historical PCNs with new ones and make decisions based on these comparisons?
If a past PCN is closed and settled, shouldn’t it remain separate and not be referenced in new cases?
Shouldn’t each PCN be considered on its own merit, rather than being influenced by previously closed cases?
How far back can they go to compare PCNs in this way? Does legislation permit them to use prior cases as a basis for decisions on current ones? We could have produced and fixed old hire agreements..
Thanks for any advice or experiences you can share on this.