Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: shaoxter on August 09, 2023, 02:20:12 pm
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No cost to get the COC, I guess it depends on the manufacturer.
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So to update and close out this thread: Birmingham city council rejected my representations (no surprise really) so I appealed to the traffic penalty tribunal and they cleared all my PCNs, hooray!
For anyone in a similar predicament, the process was:
- Obtain a certificate of conformity from the manufacturer (took 4 weeks)
- Send in a copy of the CoC along with the V5C to the DVLA so they could update the emissions details (took 4 weeks)
- Fill in a form on the CAZ website and upload a scan of the V5C (updated instantly!)
Thanks for everyone's help and input, there were actually 4 PCNs in the end which would have added up to a painful amount!
And lesson learned - never assume government databases are consistent with each other. Just because a car is ULEZ compliant does not mean it's CAZ compliant and vice versa.
Hello, thanks for posting this. I am in a similar situation with Birmingham CAZ. I have contacted their customer support and explained them about how my vehicle is ULEZ compliant and it should be CAZ compliant as well. They said it will take upto 15 days for their customer support team to give me a proper advise. I received one PCN yesterday and am expecting more since I entered the CAZ multiple times.
May I know were you charged for requesting a CoC from car manufacturer?
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It just shows what a total mess this emissions thing is. How can a car be compliant in London and not in Birmingham ?The cars comply with a defined measure of emissions, and this is supposed to be the same in every British city. OK, the CAZ admin team were helpful but why did you have to struggle to get Birmingham to accept your car complied ?
I despair the way this country is going with civil motoring laws driving council budgets.
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So just to clarify - at the time of me entering the CAZ, the car would have been showing as non-compliant on the CAZ website checker.
I did not know there was such a website and I assumed that as my car was ULEZ compliant, it would also have been CAZ compliant.
The "miracle" which had happened was me obtaining the relevant documents proving my car was compliant and getting the CAZ admin team (who were very helpful btw) to update their database.
Birmingham council then checked the latest database and dropped the charges. I doubt they have the tech know how to get a backdated version of the CAZ database ;D
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Well done!
Please post up the decision, as TPT decisions are not online, and it may help others.
They basically just said the authority did not contest as my vehicle is now showing up as compliant on the checker.
So between them issing a PCN to you, and the matter getting to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, some sort of miracle occurred and your vehicle became compliant allowing them to bow out of the adjudication with honour intact. What nonsense ! They cocked up, basically.
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Well done!
Please post up the decision, as TPT decisions are not online, and it may help others.
They basically just said the authority did not contest as my vehicle is now showing up as compliant on the checker.
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Well done!
Please post up the decision, as TPT decisions are not online, and it may help others.
Yup
Though I doubt it shows much more then the appellant proved that the vehicle is compliant and direct PCNs to be cancelled
Shaoxter did it right by getting the necessary, with that TPT decision was a formality.
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Well done!
Please post up the decision, as TPT decisions are not online, and it may help others.
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Well done.
Long winded exercise and a right pain to go through but good on you for sticking with it.
:) :) :) :)
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So to update and close out this thread: Birmingham city council rejected my representations (no surprise really) so I appealed to the traffic penalty tribunal and they cleared all my PCNs, hooray!
For anyone in a similar predicament, the process was:
- Obtain a certificate of conformity from the manufacturer (took 4 weeks)
- Send in a copy of the CoC along with the V5C to the DVLA so they could update the emissions details (took 4 weeks)
- Fill in a form on the CAZ website and upload a scan of the V5C (updated instantly!)
Thanks for everyone's help and input, there were actually 4 PCNs in the end which would have added up to a painful amount!
And lesson learned - never assume government databases are consistent with each other. Just because a car is ULEZ compliant does not mean it's CAZ compliant and vice versa.
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Gather as much as you can and ensure you are in plentry of time.
Useful information would probably be:-
- Screen shot of VSA showing NOx,
- Copy of the part of charging order which states the all other vehicle clause and your description that your vehicle is covered by this
- Your V5c
- Screenshot showing ULEZ compliance
- CoC if arrived
You also need to do as much as you can to show that the supporting documentation matches your model.
The CoC when it comes will not be specific to your actual car unfortunately (it will show a type, not a vin).
Good luck. If they reject there is a tribunal available.
Don't use links. Embed screenshots or photos.
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I have requested a certificate of conformity from Porsche (free service hooray!) so this should hopefully clear up the Euro status and NOx emissions. However they said this could take up to 28 days to arrive so in the meantime I guess I should still make representations and state that this certificate is on the way?
Yes, representations must be made by day 28 at the very latests or else you've lost.
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I forgot to ask this. Does the Porsche have a personal registration? Or has the registration been recently changed for some reason?
No personal registration changes since I have owned the vehicle.
I have requested a certificate of conformity from Porsche (free service hooray!) so this should hopefully clear up the Euro status and NOx emissions. However they said this could take up to 28 days to arrive so in the meantime I guess I should still make representations and state that this certificate is on the way?
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1.—(1) A vehicle meets the standards set out in Tables 1 and 2 if—
(a) the vehicle is certified by the appropriate national approval authority as having been manufactured
to satisfy the EC emissions standard specified for that vehicle in column (e) of the Table;
(b) the vehicle has been retrofitted so that the limit values for the emission of NOx specified for the
vehicle in column (f) would not be exceeded during the appropriate test or tests specified in
column (g) of the Table; or
(c) in respect of all other vehicles, the Central Clean Air Zone Service is satisfied that the limit values
for the emission of NOx specified for the vehicle in column (f) would not be exceeded during the
appropriate test or tests specified in column (g) of the Table.
It surely passes under (c). The VCA state the NOx level on their database and it is well under 80mg. Surely this should satisfy that the limit would not be breached if a "Type I" test (whatever that is) were undertaken.
I assume the NOx is not listed on the V5c, but a print out of the appropriate VCA page for the exact variant
https://carfueldata.vehicle-certification-agency.gov.uk/search-new-or-used-cars.aspx
Showing Euro 3 and NOx specified as approx 34mg may help in an appeal.
Being Birmingham and no discount reoffered they may well simply be "computer says no" but personally I think I would much rather pay full fines at tribunal rather than half price.
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I forgot to ask this. Does the Porsche have a personal registration? Or has the registration been recently changed for some reason?
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As I read the VCA database the Boxster type 987 was introduced in May 2005 and all models are certified as Euro 4. Prior to the type 987 all Boxster models are certified as Euro 3.
It seems to me that the OP's Porsche is a Euro 3 spec as it was registered in March 2005 and predates the type 987. Those models might meet the Euro 4 standard but Porsche never had them certified as such. If the OP obtains the type approval cert from Porsche then it's likely to say Euro 3 and/or EC 2000. But worth checking anyway.
The inclusion of the Euro class on the V5c and presumably the DVLA record is a much newer innovation, came in around 2018 I think. So any request for information on an older car won't include the Euro class.
AIUI the ULEZ system will check for compliant NOx if no Euro status is available. The OP's car has complaint NOx. Seems Birmingham's system lacks such refinements.
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The wording of the order may he problematic (and unjust).
Compliant vehicles
4. A vehicle is a compliant vehicle if—
(a) the vehicle meets the standards required of a compliant vehicle for the purposes of this Scheme;
and
(b) particulars of the vehicle are for the time being entered in the national register.
It fails (b). But charging solely on that basis would be unfair.
EMISSIONS STANDARDS FOR COMPLIANT VEHICLES
1.—(1) A vehicle meets the standards set out in Tables 1 and 2 if—
(a) the vehicle is certified by the appropriate national approval authority as having been manufactured
to satisfy the EC emissions standard specified for that vehicle in column (e) of the Table;
This could be a problem.
Although the levels meet Euro 4 the emissions data as certified by the VCA - who I believe are the approval authority - state it as Euro 3. This could be an issue.
Even if the manufacturer CoC states it was manufactured to Euro 4 it may not be plain sailing.
It would be an absurd result that it was chargable to CAZ but not ULEZ but differences in the wording could make that so.
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ULEZ and CAZ work on same emission levels.
So a motor that is compliant in one should be in tother.
They use differing databases (dunno why) and both are or should be populated by same DVLA data.
But for whatever reason they can contradict.
Your 2005 Porsche is on the date when euro 4 came in and predates when newly registed had to be.
You can query here https://contact.drive-clean-air-zone.service.gov.uk/
You may need to get a conformity certificate from Porsche and may find that you are not actually compliant...which would muck up ULEZ as well
Don't miss deadline to challenge waiting for info.... I would be phoning Porsche customer services today.
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Hello friends,
I have received a PCN from the lovely Birmingham City Council for entering their CAZ and not paying. I am well aware that there is a CAZ in place and I did enter it on the day in question, however I was under the assumption that my car is Euro 4 petrol compliant and therefore not liable for the charge.
I live in London and the car is ULEZ compliant and I drive around happily with no issues. However when I check the gov.uk CAZ website (new one to me), it says I have to pay the charge. If I look on my V5 there is only a CO figure but no HC or NOx values which I'm guessing is where the issue lies.
How come the ULEZ and CAZ checkers produce different results when the standards are the same? And what's the best way to prove that my car is compliant?
Thanks in advance for everyone's help.
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