Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Crosshairsuk on October 26, 2024, 10:35:15 am
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Thank you that's really helpful
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This is a case from London. While location isn't a mandatory item on a PCN, in practice it needs to be accurate to inform the registered keeper (who may not be the driver) where the contravention took place as well as being a record to guide an adjudicator that the PCN was properly served at the correct location (on windscreen or by CCTV), and that the council dealt with objections to accuracy in its rejections.
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Case reference 2240333815
The Appellant’s case, set out in his representations to the Council, is that the location of the contravention was incorrectly described on the PCN as “Libra Road” whereas the vehicle was in fact parked in Hunters Walk. His photographs appear to show that this is so, and the Council has not dealt with the point at all, either in its Rejection Notice or in its case summary. I consider it highly probable that he is correct.
Although it is of course the case that the driver would in normal circumstances be expected to find the PCN on the vehicle and know where the location was this will not always be the case, and the Owner of the vehicle may well not know the details of the contravention. It seems to me that on this basis both the PCN and NTO w are defective, and no payment may be demanded on the basis of them. The Appeal is therefore allowed.
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Thank you John, interesting observation
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If that is the envelope the NoR arrived in, the NoR is dated 26/02/2025 and the postmark is the 27/02/2025.
IIRC they should be the same date - a small point, but one to mention in passing in yr appeal to TPT. .
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No re-offer of discount, so it is now a no-brainer to take them to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal.
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Extra photos attached
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the rest is how to pay and how to take to the tribunal.
A number of enforcement authorities have been making fatal mistakes in the 'small print', but we shall never know unless you show it. Also, the date of the NtO governs the deadline for registering an appeal to TPT.
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That would be great thank you
No no discount re offered unfortunately.
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Presuming the discount has not been reoffered there is nothing to lose by taking it to the tribunal.
We can dig out some cases on wrong location that can help.
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That is literally the rationale for rejection, the rest is how to pay and how to take to the tribunal. Mr representation was:
Dear Sir/Madam,
I am writing to formally challenge the issuance of Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) reference BC72470937, which I received on 24/10/24 for an alleged contravention of "Parking without a valid residents permit on display."
The PCN states that the location of the alleged contravention was "Back Rochdale Old Road, Bury." However, this location does not exist. The photographic evidence taken at the time of the alleged contravention clearly shows that my vehicle was actually parked on Rectory Lane. The incorrect location on the PCN constitutes a fatal error that renders the notice invalid.
Legal Basis for Appeal
1. Failure to Accurately State the Grounds for the Charge
Under Regulation 8(1)(a) of The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007, a PCN must state "the grounds on which the civil enforcement officer believes that a penalty charge is payable."
Since "Back Rochdale Old Road" does not exist, the grounds for the charge are inaccurate and unclear, making the PCN invalid.
2. The Contravention Did Not Occur as Stated
Under Regulation 4(4)(e) of The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) Representations and Appeals Regulations 2007, a valid ground for appeal is that "the penalty charge exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case."
Because the stated location does not exist, the alleged contravention as described in the PCN did not occur, meaning the penalty should not have been issued.
3. Precedent from Parking Adjudications
In multiple cases, parking adjudicators have ruled that a PCN with an incorrect location is a "fatal flaw" that invalidates enforcement.
Furthermore, it is not within the council’s authority to reissue or amend a PCN with a corrected location after the fact.
Request for Cancellation
Given the above legal requirements, it is clear that the PCN is invalid and unenforceable due to its failure to correctly identify the location of the alleged contravention. I, therefore, request that the PCN be cancelled immediately.
The photographic evidence your CEO provided clearly supports my representation and request written confirmation of the cancellation. Should the council choose not to cancel the PCN, I require a full explanation detailing the legal basis for its continued enforcement despite the incorrect location.
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Date of NoR??
Only one page to NoR??
Please post remainder, and also a copy of your reps to the Council, that their lack of consideration may be judged.
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Hi, Representation rejected with very can't details. Ultimately despite me raising that the wrong location is on the PCN and providing proof, they are insisting it was issued correctly. Even their own CEO images show completely different.
Advice please for the TP tribunal
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NTO is now in my name
It went to Lex Auto (reg keeper), who sent it to NHS fleet, who then gave my details, so it was subsequently sent to me
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Focus on procedure first pl.
It's a lease vehicle under NHS
I've received the NTO
We need details pl.
Is the NTO in your name?
Who is the registered keeper?
I won't go any further, just one step at a time.
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Thank you for the reply , appreciated
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Just send reps saying the contravention did not occur as the car was not parked in xxxx as alleged on the PCN.
Add that the alleged location was nowhere near where the car was parked and that Google Maps is correct and this location is not where the car was.
Basically you are repeating the initial challenge.
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Anything?
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Hi everyone, after a very long time I've received the NTO, so any help or advice would be appreciated. As stated, Back Rochdale Road isn't a thing or place. Even the photos show I was on Rectory Lane. The colour of vehicle isn't recorded and there's no context to the signage about where the CEO took that picture etc
Any and all help gratefully received
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As said, until you get a NTO in your name from the authority there is nothing you can do.
For the moment, a forensic analysis of photos, GSV and location in the PCN is not relevant.
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So many many weeks after the PCN was issued still heard nothing so I submitted a FOI around the permit scheme and also requested an update on the NtO. They provided me this list as the list of scheme locations https://www.bury.gov.uk/roads-travel-and-parking/parking/apply-for-a-parking-permit/resident-parking-scheme-permits/resident-parking-scheme-zones
There is no road on there call Back Rochdale Old Road.
In fact Back Rochdale Old Road doesn't exist anywhere.
I was actually parked on an established street.
I've also just noticed the CEO hasn't even recorded the colour of my vehicle, simply put as 'Other' (It's as blue as the sky
...well the sky in a sunny climate).
The CEO clearly was rushing around slap and dashing to not put the correct location or car colour. Just awaiting the NtO now to challenge under stage 2.
Can I ask, I was parked without a permit on Rectory Lane, I have never disputed that. Will I be shooting myself in the foot by disclosing that to them, despite the PCN having the wrong (non-existent) location on it?. I assume they can't rip it up and issue a corrected one in hindsight?
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The lease company will transfer the liability to me. I can then appeal it
There is a set procedure for this, with which the lease company should be familiar.
The lease company make reps against the PCN on the grounds you are the lessee.
The council issue a Notice of Acceptance to the company, cancelling the original PCN, and issuing a fresh PCN to the the lessee.
Some councils forget to issue a NoA to the company, meaning two PCNs will be around.
The legislation permitting this transfer does not apply to all types of lease.
When you receive a PCN in your name you must check that the leasing company has received a NoA cancelling the first PCN.
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I think I've got that right: others will soon correct me if not.
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The lease company will transfer the liability to me. I can then appeal it
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You can't make reps unless you have an NTO in your name.
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Sorry forgot to answer that, basically they just forward it on to me via email. If I don't pay the charge if I become liable then they deduct it out my pay.
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So, the car was parked where the red car is here
https://maps.app.goo.gl/hmAYXM86M2MifG9R7
Leased cars add to complications, as the NtO will be sent to the Lease Company. What is the Lease Company / NHS policy on PCNs?
Yes , that's exactly where it was parked
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So, the car was parked where the red car is here
https://maps.app.goo.gl/hmAYXM86M2MifG9R7
Leased cars add to complications, as the NtO will be sent to the Lease Company. What is the Lease Company / NHS policy on PCNs?
Although not named on Open Street Map, Ordnance Survey(NLS). Bing Maps, etc. I did find it here As Back Old Rochdale Road (but with lots of lengths missing?)
https://www.findmystreet.co.uk/map?usrn=5102732
Perhaps Google is mistaken? :(
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I think you confused them by insisting the location on the PCN doesn't exist rather than it just being the wrong location, which in this case should be fatal to them.
Just wait for the notice to owner - are you the registered keeper and is the logbook correct with address.
It's a lease vehicle under NHS
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I was parked Rectory Lane, there are no images of the location etc. Just pictur s or my car and then a picture of a sign re: Permits needed that could be anywhere on earth.
I've added the pictures to the GDrive link.
Even the CEOs images have a location stamp saying Back Rochdale Old Road.
Appreciate everyones responses so far thank you
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Has Catnip correctly identified your location?
Rectory Lane is in Parking Zone C.
Back Rochdale Old Road N or S does not appear in Buryr's RPZ list (last update 2021)
https://www.bury.gov.uk/roads-travel-and-parking/parking/apply-for-a-parking-permit/resident-parking-scheme-permits/resident-parking-scheme-zones
Any Council photos on Council website? This would confirm your location on Rectory Lane at the time on the PCN, which makes it impossible for the vehicle to have been in any Back Rochdale Old Road.
Wrong location is fatal to a PCN, and the Council cannot re-issue with the right location.
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I think you confused them by insisting the location on the PCN doesn't exist rather than it just being the wrong location, which in this case should be fatal to them.
Just wait for the notice to owner - are you the registered keeper and is the logbook correct with address.
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That's Back Rochdale Old Road South there's a north also, both are 2.5 miles away. I was parked in a cut through of Rectory lane.
I posted a link to the PCN copy apologies if it didn't work, here is a link to GDrive Folder with it and my challenge and the response
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1h3KJC5add9sCsp8ZgLomImoW8GMeTaeB (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1h3KJC5add9sCsp8ZgLomImoW8GMeTaeB)
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I wouldn't be able to recognise that location as it doesn't exist. I checked via a few map systems to be sure, and it doesn't.
The location Back Rochdale Old Road is here (https://www.google.com/maps/@53.5986383,-2.2702945,3a,75y,264.66h,77.21t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sOJCB8t9Cv5jIrhy6kvlLPw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?coh=205409&entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTAyMy4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D).
Clearly, this is not where you were parked. So the location on the PCN is incorrect.
I believe you were parked here:
Rectory Lane (https://www.google.com/maps/@53.6009753,-2.2589708,3a,75y,311.12h,92.96t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sFczbNwfEfUxJ-m4B5oAVcA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?coh=205409&entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTAyMy4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D)
Hope this helps!
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Sorry, should have been clearer -I meant the location of where the car was when the PCN was affixed.
Still need to see the front page of the PCN and a copy of your challenge.
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I wouldn't be able to recognise that location as it doesn't exist. I checked via a few map systems to be sure, and it doesn't. The response to my challenge wasn't helpful either. Also I noted the CEO has not recorded the colour of my car, simply put 'Other', (My car is as blue as the sky).
I guess I'll have to await the 28days and then appeal direct to the council?
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I'm unsure how it doesn't add up. I went home and submitted a challenge and they replied within hours.
I'm sorry if I sounded doubtful. In over 10 years at FTLA and its predeccessor Pepipoo, I don't think I've ever seen a same day response from a Council - it's usually weeks or months. Kudos to Bury.
I've uploaded links etc of the PCN. Re the location on the PCN - Back Rochdale Old Road , this does not exist at all.
The first two 'links' are dead :( and the there is no page 1 of the PCN. Please could we see this, and a copy of your challenge. In view of the importance of the location, pleae post not only a link to GSV, but also a link to the map view of the location.
Only a 'North' and 'South' variant which is over 2 miles from where I actually was and regardless neither have any restrictions
Using your clue of "3 Rectory Lane"
I did find
https://www.google.com/maps/place/3+Rectory+Ln,+Bury+BL9+7TA/@53.601109,-2.259575,18.5z/data=!4m6!3m5!1s0x487bbb3a237751e1:0x972c77dc52f27fcf!8m2!3d53.6013107!4d-2.2594914!16s%2Fg%2F11cpfyfv31?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTAyMy4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
and the location "Back [of] Rochdale Old Rd" from the rejection letter I would point out that the test for incorrect location is whether the registered keeper (not being the driver) would be able to recognise the location from the Notice to Owner.
Rochdale Old Road seems to be very long and has, no doubt, plenty of 'Back of'
I
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Your GSV links don't work - where were you actually parked? CEO has taken a picture of a residents only sign, but no context as to where it is vs where the car is parked.
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I'm unsure how it doesn't add up. I went home and submitted a challenge and they replied within hours.
I've uploaded links etc of the PCN. Re the location on the PCN - Back Rochdale Old Road , this does not exist at all.
Only a 'North' and 'South' variant which is over 2 miles from where I actually was and regardless neither have any restrictions
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Your account dows not add up: "Today I received a PCN . . since when you've challenged and had a reply???
For meaningful advice please to have a read of
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
and post up copies of both sides of the PCN.
of your challenge,
of their response (redact only yr name & address from docs - leave everything else in),
any Council photos,
and a GSV link to the alleged location.
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Read this:
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
and change the title and post materials as asked.
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Hi everyone.I have received a PCN for not displaying a valid ticket or residents permit (it's not specific what I've breached as it was a generic list of breaches.l).
I challenged it immediately as the location on the ticket was incorrect, in fact the location doesn't exist at all.
I challenged that it was inadmissable and the closest location that had a similar name was not under any permit schemes etc.
The council enforcement company they use replied to my challenge, simply saying "Google maps is incorrect" , it isn't.
Do I have an appeal? One of the options s for appeal was that I wasn't at that location at that time, I provided irrefutable evidence what I wasn't (despite it not existing), the two aforementioned roads that are nearest to the one mentioned on the ticket in terms of road name, are 2.5 miles away from where I actually was.
Any advice appreciated
3 Rectory Ln
https://maps.app.goo.gl/UJsrbkYvjnKEe41Y6?g_st=ac (http://3 Rectory Ln
https://maps.app.goo.gl/UJsrbkYvjnKEe41Y6?g_st=ac)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hKS4Waq6_Ie2WdJgQ4dY0Wa1q7tUoSQs/view?usp=drivesdk (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hKS4Waq6_Ie2WdJgQ4dY0Wa1q7tUoSQs/view?usp=drivesdk)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hEDQ_66uFEC7LpPu70DpWEfOc38yFgj8/view?usp=drivesdk (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hEDQ_66uFEC7LpPu70DpWEfOc38yFgj8/view?usp=drivesdk)https://drive.google.com/file/d/1h3gYQs1BL094OzOxtUo4yQNWsdrgcSWT/view?usp=drivesdk (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1h3gYQs1BL094OzOxtUo4yQNWsdrgcSWT/view?usp=drivesdk)