@brutal_deluxe yes, but in our experience as long as the NTO is challenged within 14 days of issue, the council will reoffer the discount again to give you an incentive not to appeal to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal (which they don't want because it's a lot of work for them, and then the outcome isn't up to them any more).@brutal_deluxe definitely wait for the notice to owner, as long as you challenge it within 14 days of the date of issue they will reoffer the discount anyway.
1/ So it says I need to wait for the penalty to revert to the full amount before challenging again as registered keeper?
1/ So it says I need to wait for the penalty to revert to the full amount before challenging again as registered keeper?All this means is that you have to wait for the Notice to Owner if you want to continue to contest the PCN. As this can only be served after 28 days have elapsed from the date of service of the PCN, the legally-mandated discount option is obviously lost. However, there is nothing to prevent them re-offering it if they decline reps against an NtO.
2/ It also says that 'it is the responsibility of the owner to make sure a parking session is in place before leaving the car', however I do not see any of this in the terms/conditions.And what if the owner isn't driving it that day ? Their sentence is total tosh. Of course it is sensible to make sure there is a parking session in place before leaving the car. Rather too many people rush off and pay the parking away from the car park. This means their parking session may not be in place when a CEO happens by, (we've seen this quite often).
3/ I don't see how this is a winner at all unless they're lying to me about the procedural impropriety bit. Can you explain in lay terms how I could win this?The procedural impropriety is in serving PCNs that do not contain all the information mandated in the controlling regulations, so their answer is, again, tosh. However, it is only at the NtO stage where the statutory grounds for an appeal are listed in the NtO.
@brutal_deluxe definitely wait for the notice to owner, as long as you challenge it within 14 days of the date of issue they will reoffer the discount anyway.
@brutal_deluxe here's a draft:Dear Herefordshire Council,
I would ask for the PCN to be cancelled for the following reasons. Firstly app payment available so I tried used the app, but the internet connection was poor so the app kept failing, walking around did not result in a better signal so I eventually went back to the car to move it elsewhere.
However I am confused by the wording on the penalty charge notice because it states that I failed to display a ticket, but even if my purchase had successfully gone through I would not have had anything on display, which suggests a PCN could have been issued regardless of whether I bought a parking session or not.
Furthermore I note that regulation 3(1)(c) of The Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (England) Regulations 2022 requires the PCN to warn that if a notice to owner is served while informal representations are outstanding, the owner must make representations against and must not wait for the informal representations to be dealt with, this mandatory warning has been omitted from the penalty charge notice and that is a procedural impropriety.
It follows that the penalty charge must be cancelled in any event.
Yours faithfully,
Send this online and keep a screenshot of the confirmation page.
@brutal_deluxe Either go with H C Andersen's suggestion, or answer this and I'll see if we can expand on it slightly:@brutal_deluxe where did you eventually move the car to, and did you ever actually pay to park?
@brutal_deluxe where did you eventually move the car to, and did you ever actually pay to park?
Mandatory PCN info is missing IMO...
Hey John, thanks for the info! I have attached a photo of the reverse, are you able to shed any light on it given what I've disclosed so far about the situation?
QuoteThere is no mandatory info, just:
How to pay
How to challenge
What happens if not paid
Data protection
the headings you categorise as just is in fact the headings for the mandatory information - the 'small print' - which the law demands. Cases are frequently won because councils have made mistakes in or failed to adequately convey the required information under those headings.
There is no mandatory info, just:
How to pay
How to challenge
What happens if not paid
Data protection
It's out of focus!
The mandatory info to which I refer is, if missing, virtually a stone-cold winner at adjudication, so why not make the effort to enable us to check if it's there?
@brutal_deluxe once you've given us the plate we can look up the photos on the council website. I'm more than happy to draft a representation for you.
Shame you can't turn off the upload field!@brutal_deluxe well if I could I would. Anyway we now have the problem that you've redacted the number plate, so we can't see what evidence the council has. As the guide (which you've supposedly read twice already) clearly explains, the number plate should not be redacted: the council knows it already and everyone can see it every time your car is on the road. Hiding it just makes it that much harder for us to help you.
The traffic order is The County of Herefordshire District Council (Hereford City Centre) Order 2017 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/17QZpprZOI4kXlUPNLIKIkotTz2uBrAGU/view) and the relevant entry is on page 33 ("From 35.5m south of the southern kerbline of West Street southwards for 24.5m").
The obvious ground of appeal would be that if payment by phone is permitted then there would be nothing to display in any event, we have a few cases that have been won on this point and the most relevant seems to be Lydia Russo v Plymouth City Council (PL00004-2401, 12 March 2024) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WW83Desv43qE8aviq2wez1KRsivNCqME/view), but I'm reluctant to draft a representation without seeing the council photos because I wouldn't' want you to make a self-incriminating admission that you were parking in a parking bay if the council can't prove that.
Shame you can't turn off the upload field!@brutal_deluxe well if I could I would. Anyway we now have the problem that you've redacted the number plate, so we can't see what evidence the council has. As the guide (which you've supposedly read twice already) clearly explains, the number plate should not be redacted: the council knows it already and everyone can see it every time your car is on the road. Hiding it just makes it that much harder for us to help you.
The contraventions grounds are wrong because display is not required, it's optional because paying by phone is permitted.
The mandatory warning seems to be missing on the rear of the PCN:
c)that if a notice to owner is served despite the representations mentioned in sub-paragraph (b), representations against the penalty charge must be made to the enforcement authority in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner.
I can't see you have a challenge on issues with Ringgo given you left without trying to pay first.
Someone will no doubt check the PCN for errors as we don't see many from Herefordshire.
One point is the contravention: Parked without clearly displaying a valid pay and display ticket or voucher. Here it should include virtual tickets (although not sure if this code has such amendment) but as there is also a machine I don't think that's a runner. A correct contravention is simply not paying.
Observed from 17:18 not 17:08.
Why did you walk away from the car without first paying?
you can't upload attachments
I read the post and included all relevant info.@brutal_deluxe you obviously haven't as that post tells you that you can't upload attachments and it has very detailed instructions on how to share photos. If you have any difficulties following the instructions I'm happy to help, but I would ask that you try following the guide in the first instance.