Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: cutmle on August 09, 2023, 12:28:58 pm
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Thanks, but equally the Council used (very) outdated GSV photos of the CPZ signs in their response to my informal challenge?
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My point was that anything you discovered after being given pointers by posters as regards obscured, missing, defaced etc. signs would count for little in the balance when observed 8 weeks after the relevant event.
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Before getting too energised about CPZ signs, I note that the OP posted in their first post:
and my Zone C residents permit was displayed.
In addition, as the PCN was issued on 22 June and the OP didn't post here until August after which they went sign hunting their discoveries nearly 8 weeks after the event, especially regarding signs being obscured by foliage, aren't really persuasive IMO.
Hello, thanks for your thoughts. To explain the time gap I submitted an informal challenge first. That was rejected by the Council after a good few weeks and I then pretty much posted on here immediately after pepipoo.
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Hello cutmle
Please email the scanned Notice to owner to mrmustard@zoho.com as I can't seen to print the uploaded image out properly.
Thanks
Thanks @mrmustard, that's done.
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Before getting too energised about CPZ signs, I note that the OP posted in their first post:
and my Zone C residents permit was displayed.
In addition, as the PCN was issued on 22 June and the OP didn't post here until August after which they went sign hunting their discoveries nearly 8 weeks after the event, especially regarding signs being obscured by foliage, aren't really persuasive IMO.
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Hello cutmle
Please email the scanned Notice to owner to mrmustard@zoho.com as I can't seen to print the uploaded image out properly.
Thanks
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@mrmustard, please find Notice of Owner herewith:
https://ibb.co/tDPPPB5
I see it's dated 30/08/2023, unfortunately I have been away for a few days so have only picked it up today.
Kindly advise on the representation.
Many thanks,
cutmle
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Thank you, in which case I accept Mr Mustard's kind offer to represent.
I will await the Notice to Owner.
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Cutmle suggest you take up Mr Mustard's offer. I see a lot of cases that are hopeful at the pre-tribunal stage, but become a slam-dunk once the evidence pack comes in.
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Thanks both,
Is it me or is does this paragraph from the "Result of Investigation for Penalty Charge" contradict itself?
There are signs displayed on the entry roads to all CPZs (see below) giving the hours during which the controls and yellow line restrictions are operational. Some yellow line restrictions within a CPZ operate for longer than the controlled hours. If this is the case, as in this instance, there will be additional signs on the kerb or pavement alongside the line detailing the supplementary restrictions. There is no time plate at this location because the yellow line is operational during the CPZ hours. Your permit does not allow you to park on a single yellow line during the hours of enforcement.
Firstly she states the yellow line restriction in this instance operates for longer than the CPZ hours.
Then she states there is no timeplate at this location because the yellow line is operational during the CPZ hours.
Well, which is it? Either the yellow line restriction that I parked on operates for longer than CPZ hours (so there should be a timeplate), or it doesn't, in which case there does not need to be a timeplate.
Basically, I think the missing time plate issue rattled them slightly (perhaps highlighted their negligence in not replacing it) and they have fallen back onto the boundary signs as their trench position.
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I win 50% of my cases at the Appeal stage so to pay nothing you really just have to risk the discount. there may be errors in the wording of the Notice to Owner and/or the grounds of challenge may be wrong on line, we don't know until we get there. I will be happy to represent you once you get the Notice to Owner.
The no defined cpz argument has a few runs out now and not lost but no adjudicator is bound by it.
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I don't think a challenge to the adequacy of the signage is going to prevail.
However, an argument worth pursuing is that the signs should not be there in the first place, because The The London Borough of Richmond upon Thames (Waiting and Loading Restriction) (Civil Enforcement Area) (Consolidation No. 8) Order 2008 (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1fyMsk9okkclXvl9ZCAbfRx_nyFPGGCqs) as amended by The London Borough of Richmond upon Thames (Waiting and Loading) (Civil Enforcement Area) (Amendment No. 104) Order 2014 (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1ASGlAsvQfGdEEtghhUOVL_7G6xjmnHom) does not create any controlled parking zones.
This is a somewhat novel argument but it has succeeded before, see Josephine Dayan v London Borough of Barnet (2220227611, 18 May 2022) (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1xgRJ1kvV_0gf4wY4oC8hU7c2A5n71o9p).
@mrmustard might have more examples.
If you want to carry on, one of us will be happy to represent you.
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Hello, just conscious the discounted payment deadline is Mon 21/08, do we have a feel for whether there is a sufficiently strong case here to take to tribunal?
Much appreciated,
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Thanks, I either entered Zone C via Whitton Road or Cole Park Road.
I returned to Whitton Road and found visibility of the boundary sign on approach is obscured by branches of a tree. This is shown in the photos below.
https://ibb.co/PmSnfFN
https://ibb.co/WV1hVfw
I returned to the north end of Cole Park Road (south of the A316) and found visibility of the boundary sign is slightly obscured by moss. This is shown in the photo below.
https://ibb.co/1RXQRMr
Please let me know what you think of these photos; in the meantime I'll try and recall which out of the two my entry point was..
Thanks,
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Hi, I've put together a custom map showing all the CPZ boundary signs; unfortunately the Council have covered all possible routes to reach the PCN location from outside Zone C:
We don't need to know all possible routes, we only need to know about the route you actually took. Once you've established that, it's worth going back to get photos of the CPZ signs, as it's not infrequent that they get knocked out of position by lorries, obscured by scaffolding, we've even seen hanging baskets placed in front of them.
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Hi, I've put together a custom map showing all the CPZ boundary signs; unfortunately the Council have covered all possible routes to reach the PCN location from outside Zone C:
https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?mid=18N8JdPmTuLQbkBGpZeFgr1Jpl432AGw&usp=sharing
Based on GSV these signs are in good order and visible unfortunately.
Re. the Order, Cole Park Road intersects with London Road twice, once north of the A316 and once south of the A316. I believe clauses (a) and (b) cover the south side of Cole Park Road up to the A316 and therefore cover the PCN location, unfortunately.
Yes, I am the registered keeper and have the V5C.
Thank you.
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The council has sent me The London Borough of Richmond upon Thames (Waiting and Loading) (Civil Enforcement Area) (Amendment No. 104) Order 2014 (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=13AOzeSl59NvWtYYPuqeewLuAMrGuZZXm), but it's meaningless without the principal order and I think it only covers the part of Cole Park Road to the north of Chertsey Road. I've had to go back and ask for the missing documents.
In the meantime, please have a look at the council CPZ map (https://www.richmond.gov.uk/media/0zsnuisk/zone_all.pdf) and work out exactly where you entered the controlled parking zone. You then need to check if the CPZ boundary signs at that entrance are still in place / visible.
Lastly, are you the registered keeper and do you have the V5C?
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Thanks :)
Key details
VRM is LL19 XHX.
GSV link: https://goo.gl/maps/gisu2gLSZetzV8Pn7
Note the GSV scene is 3 years old, the nameplate has been missing from the signpost for 18 months or so - https://ibb.co/FhKWyBc
Correspondence
PCN is here:
https://ibb.co/7VwnHft
https://ibb.co/bsjLr54
The Council's response to my informal challenge is here: https://ibb.co/HpCGcLG
Please let me know if I've missed anything.
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There are various grounds to be pursued here, but first please read the guidance here https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/ and give us the VRM, and a link to the exact location on google street view.
In the meantime I've requested the traffic management order from the council.
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Hi All,
I've been stung for parking on a yellow line after moving the car to permit access for the Council leaf clearance team. No mercy from Richmond though - presumably I have next to no chance of contesting this on appeal?
Contravention
01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours
Photos from PCN
https://ibb.co/8D8ZpXJ
https://ibb.co/G24mJ5W
https://ibb.co/Gvnb2QS
https://ibb.co/7kyvs5w
https://ibb.co/Cs3m0Tq
https://ibb.co/KhX3qkL
https://ibb.co/6stMhYt
https://ibb.co/RyyZ06k
https://ibb.co/M9NMcZd
My informal challenge
The Local Authority website states "Single yellow lines operate for the hours shown on signs by the line, or for the hours of the Controlled Parking Zone (CPZ) which they are in." There are no related signs by the line as my photographic evidence shows, noting the empty signpost, and my Zone C residents permit was displayed. The yellow line where the car was parked is also not visible having been worn out over time, as my evidence demonstrates. In addition, please note that the car was parked in this position temporarily to facilitate access for the Local Authority Leaf Clearance team, who cleared Cole Park Road of leaves on the morning in question (please check the Local Authority records). Your understanding in considering this appeal is appreciated.
-- Context
The signpost which previously contained a sign specifying the controlled yellow-line times has been an empty signpost for some time - see https://ibb.co/FhKWyBc
GSV shows the previous time plate before it was removed, possibly knocked off by a vehicle: https://ibb.co/YBnRVT8
The Council have not replaced it.
Council response to informal challenge
Contravention
RT36798875
22/06/2023 at 11:41
COLE PARK RD TWICK (CPZ C)
01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours
Result of Investigation for Penalty Charge RT36798875
Thank you for your recent communication regarding the above-mentioned PCN.
The PCN was issued as your vehicle was parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours. The yellow line is in operation during the Controlled Parking Zone (CPZ) hours of Monday to Friday 8.30am to 6.30pm.
Your challenge is that there were no signs informing motorists of the restrictions and you displayed a Zone C permit in your vehicle at the material time. You also say that the yellow line was not visible and worn out.
There are signs displayed on the entry roads to all CPZs (see below) giving the hours during which the controls and yellow line restrictions are operational. Some yellow line restrictions within a CPZ operate for longer than the controlled hours. If this is the case, as in this instance, there will be additional signs on the kerb or pavement alongside the line detailing the supplementary restrictions. There is no time plate at this location because the yellow line is operational during the CPZ hours. Your permit does not allow you to park on a single yellow line during the hours of enforcement.
Additionally, while I acknowledge that the yellow line is slightly faded in places, having reviewed the photographic evidence, I am satisfied that it is present and can be seen by motorists.
It is the responsibility of the motorist to always check the signs and road markings carefully before leaving their vehicle unattended to ensure they have parked legally.
Having reviewed the matter, I find that the contravention occurred and that the PCN was correctly issued. Regrettably I cannot cancel this PCN.
https://ibb.co/1f578bk
https://ibb.co/r2vKPjf
You may now choose one of the following two options, either
1. Pay the discounted amount of £55.00 by 21/08/2023 after which the full current
charge of £110.00 will become payable.
If you choose to pay the case will be closed. No further correspondence
will be considered and the following option will not apply.
Or
2. Wait for the issue of a Notice to Owner. This will be sent to the DVLA registered keeper (owner) and will be for the full penalty charge.
A person on whom a Notice to Owner is served will be entitled to make formal representations to us against the penalty charge and may appeal to an adjudicator if those representations are rejected.
The formal representations must be made in the form and manner and within the time specified in the Notice to Owner. It is not possible to appeal to an adjudicator without first making formal representations to us.
Formal representations must include any supporting or additional evidence against the issue of the notice and may only be made by the registered keeper of the vehicle or their authorised representative.
No further correspondence will be considered prior to the issue of the Notice to Owner.
If full payment is not made or further representations are not received within the stated period, recovery procedures will continue and the charge due may increase.
Yours sincerely,
Parking Correspondence and Compliance Officer