Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: jays86 on October 22, 2024, 05:59:50 pm
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Taken it on.
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All yours hippo
Cheers! I will PM the OP. My round. 8)
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All yours hippo
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@mrmustard We can talk about this on Wednesday if you like; but, here is my suggestion:
The deemed date of service is the 22nd as already advised. I have two bus lane cases with them already and have complained to the powers that be. Their system and/or staff need root to branch review.
Without wishing to tread upon any one else's toes, I suggest that either mrmustard or I represent you now and get this sorted. At this stage. They certainly know my name, at least.
Even their chief lawyer wrote to me two years ago with drivel re bus lane certificates.
This is total incompetence. They are top of my list at present. Cannot divulge anymore save for a pending review hearing next week re their PCNs and websites.
I am prepared for the JR stage if necessary.........
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I would write back asking how they come to their interpretation of deemed service as the Civil Procedure Rules, for example, have it as the second working day.
Deemed service
6.14 A claim form served within the United Kingdom in accordance with this Part is deemed to be served on the second business day after completion of the relevant step under rule 7.5(1).
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28 days from date of contravention. But is this date, Day 1 or Day 0 ?
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Just had the following response from Havering:
Thank you for your enquiry.
I can confirm the contravention date is 24/09/2024 and the Penalty Charge Notice was issued Friday 18/10/2024 1st class mail therefore service is deemed Monday 21/10/2024 which is 27 days service.
Please be advised the options available to you at this time are to make payment of the full outstanding balance of £130 to prevent incurring further charges or wait for the Order For Recovery to file Statutory Declaration should you have the grounds (please see grounds below) to do so and return the form to Traffic Enforcement Centre the address can be found on the form.
I did not receive the:
Notice to Owner (Parking contravention) or
Enforcement Notice (Bus lane contravention) or
Penalty Charge Notice (Moving Traffic contravention or Congestion Charging contravention)
I made representations about the penalty charge to the local authority concerned within 28 days of the service of the Notice to Owner/Enforcement Notice/Penalty Charge Notice, but did not receive a rejection notice.
I appealed to the Parking/Traffic Adjudicator against the local authority’s decision to reject my representation, within 28 days of service of the rejection notice, but have had no response to my appeal.
Kind regards
Any suggestions on next steps...?
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Send it to Ray Morgon and the parking department too. He will be aware that they have problems.
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OK
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Here's a draft of what I'm going to send. Any comments/changes before I do?
I am writing with regard to Penalty Charge Notice HG6144554A issued to my vehicle EJ67FLV.
The PCN is invalid and not legally enforceable based on Section 6 - Limitation on service of penalty charge notice, which clearly states:
“Subject to the provisions of this section, no penalty charge notice may be served under this Act after the expiry of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the alleged contravention or failure to comply occurred.”
The alleged contravention occurred on 24th September, and the PCN is deemed to be served on 22nd October (deemed service is the 2nd working day following the date of the letter). This exceeds the 28-day limitation period specified in the Act, rendering the PCN unlawful.
Your continued pursuit of this invalid PCN is not only unjust but also unlawful. Given this I respectfully request that the PCN be immediately cancelled and that you confirm this in writing at your earliest convenience.
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I would go on the offensive (politely) and send a letter of complaint setting out the plain fact that they have broken the law and should know better.
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OK, so Mr Mustard has (as usual) come forward with a trump card! The PCN seems to have been served too late and so Havering cannot (legally) pursue you for the penalty. That should be enough to win it for you on its own.
Only trouble is the most recent letter suggests Havering believe you to be beyond the point of making any representations and we are a bit in the dark as to why. Can you seriously not recall at all how and when you responded to them? I presume you sent representations using their online portal? Did you take a screenshot of what you wrote? Anything at all to indicate what day it was?
Hopefully, it is as simple as writing to them to point out they served the PCN too late. However I suspect they will ignore/refute this, or fail to understand the concept of service (after all their recent letter implies they believe the PCN was served on 18 October). In which case you will have to somehow get the PCN back on track of the formal process. If they have issued a Charge Certificate, then the next stage is an Order for Recovery which includes the means to get the process reset if you can confirm you submitted representations in time and did not receive a Notice of Rejection.
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Thanks for all the advice so far.
@MrChips I don't have the exact date I submitted reps, poor record keeping on my part. Their letter references 19th November, but I can't see why I would have left it so long to get something over to them.
@mrmustard The car is not leased and that is an interesting point that you raise regarding the 28 days.
Is the complaint here that, the PCN was served outside the 28 day period and is therefore unlawful. Furthermore no Charge Certificate was ever received. Is there anything else I should be saying?
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If the car is leased ignore the balance of this post except to tell us if it is leased.
There is a fundamental point.
The law says:
6 - Limitation on service of penalty charge notice
(1 )Subject to the provisions of this section, no penalty charge notice may be served under this Act after the expiry of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the alleged contravention or failure to comply occurred.
Alleged contravention date is 24 September = day 1
Day 28 = 21 October
PCN dated 18 October
OP says he received it on 22 October (OP's first post dated that day says just received).
Deemed service is on the 2nd working day.
18 October was a Friday so deemed service was also 22 October.
If therefore the OP did make his post to this forum on the day of receipt the PCN is unlawful and if I was the OP I would be writing to the council telling them that everything they have done from the start is unlawful and they must stop any further action and cancel the PCN.
(Havering are error prone https://lbbspending.blogspot.com/2024/12/havering-council-3-errors-in-one-pcn.html)
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What c.c.? Complaint time to Councillor Ray Morgon and Jo Green. TMA reference is BS.
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/contravention-code-53j-havering-entering-school-zone/msg55319/#msg55319
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Can you confirm how and when you submitted representations? The charge certificate looks incorrect where it says the original PCN was served on 18 October - by my reckoning it was deemed served on 22 October which would have given you until 18 November to submit representations.
Other than your representations, have you sent anything else, e.g. a follow up or 'chaser'?
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I never received a Charge Certificate, the only correspondence I received was dated 18th October and then this today.
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:o ::)
Did you receive a Charge Certificate?
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Reps were submitted as suggested by Hippocrates, then no further correspondence received or sent until this popped through the letterbox today.
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Please to advise what has happened, if anything, between 23rd October last and today.
(https://i.ibb.co/LXVjR4Zf/PXL-20250203-170546121-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8L1vsF7V)
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Just received the below through from Havering, any suggestions as to what to do here...?
(https://i.ibb.co/8L1vsF7V/PXL-20250203-170546121-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8L1vsF7V)
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We'll have a go and see where it ends up! Is it just a case of copying @Hippocrates post to submit as reps?
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Your Havering webpage extracts show the complete shite that is the Havering website related to PCNs.
There is NO informal representations stage with a moving traffic PCN that is sent by post to the keeper of the vehicle.
A response saying a Notice to Owner has already been sent is also wildly misleading to those who don't know the law and the regulations. Havering are well known as a bunch of chysters when it comes to PCNs and their enforcement, so if it were me, I'd follow Hippocrates advice and take them all the way to London Tribunals and hold their hand to the fir.
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@Hippocrates appreciate the reply whilst on holiday! I might be wrong but I can see options to pay by post on the PCN. Also, I just tried to submit informal reps based on your post above and it says an NTO has been sent...
(https://i.ibb.co/42N6v6H/Screenshot-2024-10-22-20-55-49-604-com-android-chrome.jpg) (https://ibb.co/42N6v6H) (https://i.ibb.co/SxZRbyx/Screenshot-2024-10-22-20-53-10-466-com-android-chrome.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SxZRbyx) (https://i.ibb.co/vzbq13K/Screenshot-2024-10-22-20-56-34-546-com-android-chrome.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vzbq13K)
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I make these formal representations against PCN
1.The PCN contains two lists of grounds, one of which wrongly includes a ground re the traffic order being invalid which, itself, invalidates the PCN. Further, in both lists there is yet another ground which is incorrect as it too belongs to another legislation: the vehicle had been permitted to rest etc.
2. The PCN does not include the option to pay by post.
Therefore, in light of the above, please cancel it as the PCN is unenforceable. Should you not agree to do so, I will take the matter to adjudication if necessary.
*****
Edited. Leave the website for the Tribunal. This mirrors a case won a few months ago.
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The PCN and their website are pants.
Please go onto the site as if to challenge and screenshot and report back.
The PCN contains two lists of grounds which do not tally with each other. There is no ground re allowing the vehicle to rest and there is no ground re traffic order being invalid.
I have two cases pending shortly on this. I will draft later as I am supposed to be on holiday.
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I expect your wife thought the car ahead would go through the lights - if the car had stopped at a green light inexplicably that could have been a case....
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Thought so, was clutching at straws as could really do without the extra expense. If you spot anything in the PCN please do let me know!
@mickR - apologies, @stamfordman very kindly shared above for me
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You are right - this is a slam dunk contravention.
We may be able to find something on the PCN or website.
(https://i.imgur.com/GmdxaMj.gif)
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viewing video requires asking for permission. can you make it public.
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Just received a PCN through the post. My partner was driving at the time, I think she's fairly bang to rights, but just wondered if there's any grounds for appeal here?
Thanks!
(https://i.ibb.co/0Z8gQfs/IMG-20241022-174604.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0Z8gQfs) (https://i.ibb.co/Pcnnd4Q/IMG-20241022-174624.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Pcnnd4Q) (https://i.ibb.co/cwjVjVd/IMG-20241022-174640.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cwjVjVd) (https://i.ibb.co/Xk8g0SL/IMG-20241022-174646.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Xk8g0SL)
Video: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bR_u6BvpDR2oXeudHi7kPsy6_FlW9fzR/view?usp=drivesdk