Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Speeding and other criminal offences => Topic started by: Speedygonzales on October 21, 2024, 11:16:26 am
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Sounds like the OP experienced a very normal appearance in court.
Delays in timings for defendants appearances are regrettable but, at the start of the day, no-one has any idea how long each case will take.
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She told me I needed to inform my insurance company of the outcome immediately as it may invalidate my insurance if I didn’t. (collusion between the corporate banks and the state?) She ended by reminding me that another 2 points and I would lose my license.
Since it's purely a commercial contractual term (bearing in mind some insurers don't even care for mid-policy points), what sort of state collusion are you thinking is involved?
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Isn't that his response to whatever he was sent?
Yeah, maybe. It’s of no use to man nor beast though.
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Below is a response to a DM I received and thought it would benefit all who have ended up in this situation.
And which bright spark sent you that?
I don't think anyobody sent him that, did they?
Isn't that his response to whatever he was sent? Which could have been a simple "How did your court appearance go?"
OP's views sound a bit freemanesque to me...
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Below is a response to a DM I received and thought it would benefit all who have ended up in this situation.
And which bright spark sent you that?
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Caught appearance happened to last week, stuck to the plan and all went as well as could be expected. Although they did put my speeding offence on a sliding scale and hence, I received 4 points instead of 3. As described above the court’s do not want to convict you of both. Still don’t fully understand why.
The overall financial penalty was several times more than the normal speeding ticket, so I have to thank the Royal Mail for that. My old dad says if it feels like you’ve been robbed, you probably have.
Thanks again for the advice it was very useful.
A donation has been made to a local homeless charity on behalf of FTLA.
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I'll update in 2/3 weeks time and hopefully won't need to ask about defending the "Fail to Provide details" charge.
Thanks again.
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Yes, it is the worst case scenario and the outcome should not see you on twelve points.
If it does, you are able to avoid a ban if you can convince the court that you or others will suffer "exceptional hardship" if banned. The hardship must be over and above that which is likely to be suffered by any other driver subject to a ban.
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I can play the politeness game so that shouldn’t be a problem.
Currently six points on license so yes, another six is really what I’m trying to avoid. Sounds like a worst-case scenario now though.
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In trying to get the police prosecutor’s agreement should I mention that the NIP was not served correctly and that there is some evidence of a poor postal service to my address. Or again is it best to keep it simple and don’t give them more than what they need to know.
Just keep it simple. Make your offer. Only volunteer more information if you are asked and all you need to say then is that you did not received the NIP and request for driver's details.
What happens if they don’t do the deal? How do I prepare for that? A statement of facts and print off the Royal Mail claims email chain.
As far as I am aware here has only been one instance on here where the deal was not accepted. In that case the defendant was less than polite to the prosecutor, telling him what he could and couldn't do. So the prosecutor showed him.
In the unlikely event you do need to defend the "Fail to Provide details" charge it is unlikely that your trial will take place on that day. Instead it will probably be adjourned to a later date. However, if it does proceed on the same day all you can do is to take whatever evidence you have of earlier problems. I have to say that to cite one particular item going adrift does not seem to make a very convincing argument. I would imagine most people could do that. However, if that's all you have, that's all you have.
If I am found guilty of both offences, then I believe, the points on my license would take me over the 12-point limit. Can I appeal after or is it best to set up mitigating circumstances on the day.
Unless you plead guilty to them both you cannot be convicted of both offences. You cannot be convicted of speeding because the police have no evidence that you were driving. If your offer is rejected and the police proceed with the Fail to Provide charge, the speeding charge will be dropped. In that event the worst that can happen is for you to be convicted of the Fail to Provide charge and that can only result in six points. Would that take you to twelve or more?
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Thank you.
In trying to get the police prosecutor’s agreement should I mention that the NIP was not served correctly and that there is some evidence of a poor postal service to my address. Or again is it best to keep it simple and don’t give them more than what they need to know.
What happens if they don’t do the deal? How do I prepare for that? A statement of facts and print off the Royal Mail claims email chain.
If I am found guilty of both offences, then I believe, the points on my license would take me over the 12-point limit. Can I appeal after or is it best to set up mitigating circumstances on the day.
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If you have pleaded NG to both charges and intend to do the "deal" mentioned earlier, you do not need a solicitor.
Arrive at the court in good time, ask to see the prosecutor for your case and make your offer. If you are unable to see the prosecutor before you are called into court, he first thing you will be asked after identifying yourself is whether you want to confirm your NG pleas. It is at this point you can make your offer.
Before the pandemic it was necessary to attend court to do this "deal" because it needs the agreement of the police prosecutor. During the pandemic courts made every effort to have as few people as possible attend and they began doing this deal under the "Single Justice" procedure without the defendant's attendance. Some courts have carried this procedure on whilst others have reverted to a personal attendance being necessary. Yours is obviously among the later.
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Depends
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Update today.
Summons to Court in about two weeks’ time. Very little else in the letter. Case ref matches.
Any advice? Do I need a solicitor?
How should I prepare?
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Thanks again for all the help. You are doing some good work here.
Glad to see the Pepipoo legacy continues
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Do I need to fill in the My Finances section? Seems a bit intrusive, what happens if I don’t?
If you don't and they don't take action against you for failing to do so, they will sentence you on an assumed income of £440pw.
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Do I need to fill in the My Finances section? Seems a bit intrusive, what happens if I don’t?
That’s how they calculate the fine. Off the top of my head, it’s an offence not to complete it. Up to you.
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Thank you for the explanation it is appreciated.
Tick both boxes as Not Guilty.
My Not Guilty Plea will be
“I will change my plea and admit to the Speeding offence if, and only if, the Fail to Provide Driver Details offence is dropped.”
Do I need to fill in the My Finances section? Seems a bit intrusive, what happens if I don’t?
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Perhaps a little explanation will help you understand this:
At present, unless you plead guilty, you cannot be convicted of speeding as the police have no evidence that you were driving.
They will, however, be fairly confident of seeing you convicted for "Fail to Provide Driver's Details" (FtP). But unless you plead guilty, this will involve a trial and, like you, they have better things to do.
However, if you simply plead Not Guilty to both charges, they will proceed with the one where they are most confident of success (FtP). You don't really want that (because it is a far more damaging conviction) and they don't really want that either because it involves the bother of a trial.
So, you enter NG pleas to both but make it known that you will change your plea and admit speeding if, and only if, they agree to drop the FtP charge.
So the end result should be they are happy because they haven't had to bother with a trial but have still secured a conviction. You are happy because you are only convicted of the offence you actually committed rather than one which was possibly caused by items lost in the post.
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Apologies for being dumb. Do you mean:
Tick boxes.
Offence 1 section 172 - Not Guilty
Offence 2 speeding - Guilty
My Not Guilty Plea will be
“If you accept my not guilty plea then I (the driver) will plead guilty to the speeding offence.”
I don’t want to attend court. I just want to throw some money at this to make it go away.
You don't need to explain your NG plea for the s172 offence, and you certainly must not identify yourself as the driver at this stage. Just leave it blank.
Do NOT plead guilty to speeding. That would be to throw away your bargaining position. Plead NG, but indicate that you're willing to plead G if the s172 is dropped.
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Apologies for being dumb. Do you mean:
Tick boxes.
Offence 1 section 172 - Not Guilty
Offence 2 speeding - Guilty
My Not Guilty Plea will be
“If you accept my not guilty plea then I (the driver) will plead guilty to the speeding offence.”
I don’t want to attend court. I just want to throw some money at this to make it go away.
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If you say that, the court ought to reject any guilty plea to the speeding offence, as you’ve indicated that you may have a defence to it. Why not just make the offer, without explaining?
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Plea deal it is, just because I have more important life issues to deal atm.
So, tick both boxes as Not Guilty.
My Not Guilty Plea will be
“Your Single Justice Procedure Notice was my first indication of the speeding offence therefore I have not been able to respond under section 172 as I was not in receipt of the Notice of Intended Prosecution for the Section 89 Road Traffic Act offence.
If you accept my not guilty plea for the section 172 offence, then I (the driver) will plead guilty to the speeding offence.”
Does that sound ok? Anything to add, take out or change?
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Am I right in thinking that if this email chain is accepted as evidence then the original NIP was not issued/served within the 14 days.
Drugs are bad, m'kay?
You would need to convince the bench that (on the balance of probabilities) the NIP was not delivered. Evidence that other items were not delivered, would tend to support your testimony that the NIP was not delivered insofar as it demonstrates that your post sometimes has issues.
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The failure to furnish offence doesn't need a NIP.
Yes and no. Mostly no.
If the s. 172 requirement, which was incorporated into the NIP, was not served, there was no s. 172 requirement and no s. 172 offence committed. However, assuming that the police can prove that the notice was properly posted, it is presumed to have been served unless the OP can prove otherwise.
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I do not have anything direct from the Royal Mail as it was the jeweler that had to make the claim against royal mail. I do how ever have a protracted email chain with the jeweler that has tracking and escalation numbers from the Royal Mail. The email conversation also highlights how poorly staffed the Royal Mail are and how difficult it is to talk to anybody at the mail centres. Is this classed as vague and rambling anecdotes in the eyes of the law?
Am I right in thinking that if this email chain is accepted as evidence then the original NIP was not issued/served within the 14 days.
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Also have I missed two NIPs in total? Years ago, I missed one due to being abroad, but I was sent a reminder.
You've certainly missed one NIP, for the speeding. Possibly also a reminder, though they are not required by law and many forces don't send them.
The failure to furnish offence doesn't need a NIP.
As for the way forward, I'd echo Andy's advice
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It depends on how strong your potential defence is. On the face of it, your defence is that the NIP/s. 172 was not served (delivered). You would need to prove this (on the balance of probabilities).
If you have independent evidence of ongoing postal issues, e.g. a paper trail of previous complaints to RM, etc., then it might be worth defending the allegations.
If all you have is vague and rambling anecdotes of post going missing previously, then doing the deal might be a better option.
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I have a similar issue to recent posts but having read the house rules I will start a fresh.
I have received a Single Justice Procedure notice in the post for a speeding offence back in May (58 in a 40 zone). I did not receive the NIP and this has come as a surprise. Again, not sure who was driving but I am willing to take the fine and the points (I am the registered keeper). Address is correct on the V5C but having issues with Royal mail post not arriving (partner lost a diamond ring a couple months ago, even though it was meant to be signed for and tracked).
Also have I missed two NIPs in total? Years ago, I missed one due to being abroad, but I was sent a reminder.
In a recent post it states:
“The normal way to deal with this is for he registered keeper to plead not guilty to both offences but offer to plead guilty to speeding on the understanding that the "fail to provide" charge will be dropped.”
Could you please confirm this is the best way forward for me.
Thanks for any advice in advance.
Jay