Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: maripop00 on October 20, 2024, 07:21:21 pm
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Very well done indeed ! We don't see this very often.
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maripop00
You may resolve this swiftly and decisively.
I would like to say thank you to Pressman for your help, the drafted letter on the first page of this topic has resulted in the fine being cancelled altogether.
Thanks to everyone else for their input
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maripop00
You may resolve this swiftly and decisively.
Your mother should make a statutory declaration affirming that she has no association with the debtor and is the sole owner of the property, including any vehicles therein.
Once the declaration is formally sworn, serve it upon TfL and the bailiff company, ensuring you obtain a certificate of posting for proof of service.
This action will extricate your mother's address from the enforcement proceedings, allowing you to disengage entirely.
While others may delve into the minutiae of postal issues, suggesting you pursue extensive correspondence with TfL and compile timelines, such efforts will likely prove unproductive.
This pragmatic approach focuses on an expeditious and definitive solution that aligns with your objective. It is about taking direct, impactful action to resolve matters swiftly and effectively without unnecessary complications.
Why would maripop00 mother make a statutory declaration affirming that she has no association with the debtor and is the sole owner of the property, including any vehicles therein?
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A simple email to the enforcement agent company from maripop00 mother should suffice, usually proof of age / disability and a council tax bill suffices proving she solely is resident at the property in question.
That would appear to resolve the issue swiftly hassle free
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unless maripop00 wants it resolved differently. I can't understand how a stat dec from maripop00 mother would be accepted by TEC considering she's not the Respondent. Surely her stat dec, in that case, would most likely be returned.
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Guys, thanks for all the discussion but I do feel like I am being judged here more than being helped, which is what I was recommened to come here for.
By judged... but I was not given the opportunity to deal with it.
You are going to get judge by people whose tireless inputs and efforts are repeatedly and endlessly getting judged by local / charging authorities, adjudicators, enforcement agents and so on.
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Ultimately, if you can evidence, that you was not served PCN and or NTO or reminder of PCN/NTO then this must be declared and evidence provided and the court can order the PCN revert back to the original PCN price.
If you can evidence, that you was not served, and within a certain timeframe, the Order and Form (Order for Recovery and Stat Dec/Witness Statement) that is a breach of the CPR Rules.
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A leaked article from the Civil Enforcement Agents Association's newsletter to its bailiff company members, re-shared on the Telegram app, revealed that bailiff companies successfully recover only one-third of traffic debt cases assigned to them.
Which I would think is mostly London. Almost all the threads we get on here are about London councils or TfL. There needs to be serious reform of the system to stop councils just using PCNs as a Magic Money Tree.
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A leaked article from the Civil Enforcement Agents Association's newsletter to its bailiff company members, re-shared on the Telegram app, revealed that bailiff companies successfully recover only one-third of traffic debt cases assigned to them.
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Looking at this from a distance, the debt must be part of the £380 million uncollected fines for ULEZ contraventions, so this is either the biggest well of work for bailiffs ever, or a huge potential write-off for TfL. Let's hope maripop00's case is put into the "too difficult" basket !
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ced1dg42n5zo
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Understanding that Maripop00 is overseas and beyond the jurisdiction of debt enforcement, we must focus on solutions within our expertise. We excel in assisting individuals to resolve their issues through the appropriate legislation; therefore, I recommended submitting a statutory declaration as a proactive measure.
It's perfectly acceptable for Maripop00 to leave the matter and allow TFL and its company to proceed independently. They possess the full authority of Parliament and the legal profession to recover unpaid traffic debts, and it's not our responsibility to advocate on their behalf. I understand this board is dedicated to supporting drivers rather than authorities.
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OP, your account is still unclear. We are trying to help but this is a legal process and until we know what's what IMO it's asking too much to get the appropriate advice in the circumstances if we don't know what these are.
You keep referring to 'your UK address'. You also refer to living 'in Cheshire'. You also referred to 'we have difficulty with the Royal Mail'(presumably at your Cheshire address), in addition you refer to 'your mother's address' and then we have bailiffs attending a premises where your mother lives.
As so many others have said and what I understand is the basis of Pressman's post* and my previous suggestion regarding your mother's position:
The DVLA keeper address is/was A;
A is your mother's permanent address, but not your's/A is your Cheshire address and your mother lives elsewhere/A is neither?
@Pressman:
Your mother should make a statutory declaration affirming that she has no association with the debtor and is the sole owner of the property, including any vehicles therein.
IMO, we still do not know this to be true from the OP's account. It might be, but we cannot know from the OP's account. Recommending submission of a legal notice when determinate issues are unknown is placing the OP's mother in even more of a predicament.
And as per Enceladus, this doesn't resolve the OP's problem as regards the debt.
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maripop00
You may resolve this swiftly and decisively.
Your mother should make a statutory declaration affirming that she has no association with the debtor and is the sole owner of the property, including any vehicles therein.
Once the declaration is formally sworn, serve it upon TfL and the bailiff company, ensuring you obtain a certificate of posting for proof of service.
This action will extricate your mother's address from the enforcement proceedings, allowing you to disengage entirely.
While others may delve into the minutiae of postal issues, suggesting you pursue extensive correspondence with TfL and compile timelines, such efforts will likely prove unproductive.
This pragmatic approach focuses on an expeditious and definitive solution that aligns with your objective. It is about taking direct, impactful action to resolve matters swiftly and effectively without unnecessary complications.
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I suggest that the OP phones TFL to confirm the address used on the PCN, Charge Cert and Order for Recovery. Was it Mum's address or was it some other address? Probably be hard work to find out but three documents lost in the post suggests they weren't sent to Mum's address. The alternative being that they were ignored.
And clarity with dates would help.
10th April 2024 the V5c was updated. Is that the purchase date of the car or what?
21st April 2024 the car was allegedly driven into the ULEZ zone.
Did the car leave the ULEZ on the same day?
Then the car was exported. But when? June 2024 or was it April 10th 2024?
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what did dvla do/say when you declared the car for export?
re the tax I would have thought you would get automatic cancellation if it was being exported??
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Sorry about all the "third degree, hard cop, soft cop" stuff, but its very important to get answers and a full view of the situation if useful advice is to be given.
The bottom line for me is that the debt is still outstanding. Nothing I have read so far tells me anything that will result in the debt being extinguished. OK, the bailiffs may go back to the council and tell them "we can't enforce the debt, sorry", and the council then write it off, but they're not going to tell you they have done this. So you might come back to the UK in the future and suddenly get different bailiffs at your door when you thought it had all gone away.
Just seems extremely unfair due to no fault of my own, I am now dealing with Bailiffs and a significant amount of money. If I was given the opportunity to pay the original fine, should I have known about it, would have been sorted in no time. Seems like the whole system is set up to get people into debt with Bailiffs.
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Sorry about all the "third degree, hard cop, soft cop" stuff, but its very important to get answers and a full view of the situation if useful advice is to be given.
The bottom line for me is that the debt is still outstanding. Nothing I have read so far tells me anything that will result in the debt being extinguished. OK, the bailiffs may go back to the council and tell them "we can't enforce the debt, sorry", and the council then write it off, but they're not going to tell you they have done this. So you might come back to the UK in the future and suddenly get different bailiffs at your door when you thought it had all gone away.
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Guys, thanks for all the discussion but I do feel like I am being judged here more than being helped, which is what I was recommened to come here for.
By judged, I mean, people seem to be looking for things that arent there.
Regarding car tax....you don't have to purchase a minimum of 6 months - you can buy car tax on a direct debit , for example if you were to tax your car today - the data will show it's valid until October 2025, but you are still paying monthly and can cancel it / sorn it at any point and data will reflect that month of cancelled tax.
In my case, I was in and out of the country for the past year, however was in the UK beginning of 2024 until April 2024, when I bought the car, obviously registered it to my UK address, but got offered a job abroad a few weeks later and decided to take the car with me. Car Tax was on a direct debit and completely forgot to cancel/sort it in April, so only done this in July, hence it is showing July. Straightforward.
Secondly, there was no PCN's that arrived to my UK address from TfL, as I mentioned in my first post, that we did have problems with post during the summer period, once a week postal service or non at all at time.
The first I heard about this fine was the CDER letter that come to my UK address, hence why I am here to ask for advice on how to deal with it now.
Should any letters arrived from TfL, of course the fine would have been paid as I know that my ignorance to ULEZ is my fault, but I was not given the opportunity to deal with it.
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noted HCA... re the car tax issue. it doesn't add up.
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The OP says none of the PCN letters were received so I would have thought that merits investigation.
Indeed, but the OP wasn't in residence as they've been abroad since April and therefore has no first-hand knowledge.
OP, how about:
I bought a (non-compliant as regards ULEZ) car in Cheshire where I live;
I gave my mother's address (her house, not mine)to DVLA because I would be out of the country for some months;
I subsequently drove to London where inadvertently I entered the ULEZ zone;
I didn't pay the road user charge and then left the country with my car*;
My mother tells me that she didn't receive any notices at her address until a Notice of Enforcement.
*- plausible based on what we know? But doesn't answer the question why is the car still registered if DVLA have been told it's been exported, aren't these mutually incompatible? Also, the car's tax was valid until July 2024, but how come given that a minimum of 6 months had to be bought in April? And the car's not SORN'd.
If giving their mother's address was a matter of convenience and the OP indeed does not live there but uses it perhaps as a stopover then IMO they need to tell TfL the full story, not just 'I don't live there'. Any issues with the car's status aren't germane for these purposes.
OP, we're asking these questions because you asked: 'how can I keep my mother out of this?'. So is it her premises with none of your goods there, how old is she and could you possibly and objectively prove that she should be classified a 'vulnerable' as understood under Schedule 12? None of this addresses your liability and indeed if it's her property and you actually live in Cheshire and her address is the one on the warrant because you gave this to DVLA then ultimately the bailiffs would find you in Cheshire IMO and due process followed from this point.
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The OP says none of the PCN letters were received so I would have thought that merits investigation.
If you take a vehicle abroad for more than 12 months you must tell DVLA it has been permanently exported, which I presume the OP did. Less than 12 months you don't. But I don't think there is a requirement to apply for a certificate of permanent export and I presume the UK address remains on the record if you don't.
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So I'm guessing you went abroad - what date? - and the PCN, charge certificate and order for recovery arrived and weren't opened by your mother? But we don't know if they sent them to the right address.
You should read the post because maripop00 indicates he went abroad over a year ago. He mentioned that he will be abroad for 9-12 months, and the car is marked as "exported" due to being outside the country for more than a year. Therefore, maripop00 went abroad sometime around April
I think you need to read the post.
the op bought the car in April and then went about for about 9- 12 months NOT has been abroad for 9 - 12 months.
the OP has been grilled like a roast as its as difficult to get straightforward replies as it is picking up red hot roast potatoes with no gloves.
if the vehicle is marked as "exported" what address should be in the V5 now?
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You should read the post because maripop00 indicates he went abroad over a year ago. He mentioned that he will be abroad for 9-12 months, and the car is marked as "exported" due to being outside the country for more than a year. Therefore, maripop00 went abroad sometime around April 2023.
- @Pressman
I have been through this thread, reading carefully, and I find no mention of 2023. All the instances of April seem to refer to 2024, including this from maripop00'e post Reply#16
It is the same address where I live, or lived before I went abroad back in end of April
Hence my question posited in post Reply#18 :
The logbook was not changed, I bought the vehicle in April and applied for a logbook in my name. I then went abroad with it
Date of purchase / date on V5 - 10th April
Date of alleged contravention - 21st April
Could it be that DVLA had not fully updated its records when TfL applied for owner details? Might that explain absence of post?
And the possibility that official notices from TfL went to the previous owner's address until CDER tracked maripop00's home address?
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So I'm guessing you went abroad - what date? - and the PCN, charge certificate and order for recovery arrived and weren't opened by your mother? But we don't know if they sent them to the right address.
You should read the post because maripop00 indicates he went abroad over a year ago. He mentioned that he will be abroad for 9-12 months, and the car is marked as "exported" due to being outside the country for more than a year. Therefore, maripop00 went abroad sometime around April 2023.
If you were moving abroad permanently TFL cannot pursue you although they have an agency that tries to scare people. If you give them your current address this should effectively write it off but we haven't seen this situation before.
Transport for London need not use agencies for intimidation, as there are established legal frameworks for enforcing judgments internationally. The Hague Convention on Choice of Court Agreements (2005) or the Commonwealth Scheme may provide suitable mechanisms for enforcement, depending on the jurisdiction where Maripop00 resides. However, the Lugano Convention is no longer applicable following Brexit
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So I'm guessing you went abroad - what date? - and the PCN, charge certificate and order for recovery arrived and weren't opened by your mother? But we don't know if they sent them to the right address.
If you were moving abroad permanently TFL cannot pursue you although they have an agency that tries to scare people. If you give them your current address this should effectively write it off but we haven't seen this situation before.
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@maripop00
You've been grilled like a Sunday roast, with every question picking over answers you've already served up. So, let's skip the fluff and get straight to the juicy bits to spare you any further hassle.
Thank you for your advice and taking your time to respond. Really appreciate this
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@maripop00
You've been grilled like a Sunday roast, with every question picking over answers you've already served up. So, let's skip the fluff and get straight to the juicy bits to spare you any further hassle.
Given your relocation overseas, the Warrant address remains at your mother's. I provided guidance for making a Stage 1 Formal Complaint to request the withdrawal of the enforcement.
As you currently reside abroad, enforcement action cannot be pursued under the statutory provisions of the Tribunals, Courts, and Enforcement Act 2007, which limits jurisdiction to England and Wales.
Consequently, the Warrant of Control is unenforceable in this context, and your mother is fully entitled to peace and privacy, free from bailiffs attempting to seek you out at her doorstep.
If your mother feels concerned about her safety, she is entitled to submit a Statutory Declaration confirming that she is the sole occupant of the property and that you no longer reside there, thereby removing the address from the scope of the enforcement.
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Have you ever used your mother's address as the Registered Keeper address of the car with the DVLA. IE has your mother's address ever been on the car's V5c registration doc?
It is the same address where I live, or lived before I went abroad back in end of April
and the answer to the actual question asked is???
My mum lives with me. :-\
Thought I already answered this, sorry
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Have you ever used your mother's address as the Registered Keeper address of the car with the DVLA. IE has your mother's address ever been on the car's V5c registration doc?
It is the same address where I live, or lived before I went abroad back in end of April
and the answer to the actual question asked is???
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The logbook was not changed, I bought the vehicle in April and applied for a logbook in my name. I then went abroad with it
Date of purchase / date on V5 - 10th April
Date of alleged contravention - 21st April
Could it be that DVLA had not fully updated its records when TfL applied for owner details? Might that explain absence of post?
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Trying to get information out of you is like playing charades.
Call TFL in the morning and ask them where they sent the PCN.
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Have you ever used your mother's address as the Registered Keeper address of the car with the DVLA. IE has your mother's address ever been on the car's V5c registration doc?
It is the same address where I live, or lived before I went abroad back in end of April
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Have you ever used your mother's address as the Registered Keeper address of the car with the DVLA. IE has your mother's address ever been on the car's V5c registration doc?
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The logbook was not changed, I bought the vehicle in April and applied for a logbook in my name. I then went abroad with it
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The red flag for me is the export marker 'yes' in the DVLA return which is presumably why the logbook was changed. The car is not currently taxed (ran out end June).
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@stamfordman. Well done.
Let's get the facts before the OP fires off ill-considered and procedurally questionable letters to all and sundry.
For all we know, a little bit of diligent examination of the OP's account and evidence to date might reveal a glaring and procedurally proper solution!
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The logbook was changed on 10 April 2024, just 11 days before the contravention. Why?
(https://i.ibb.co/mHrPf61/Screenshot-2024-10-21-at-08-45-56.png)
(https://i.ibb.co/qyMW47x/Screenshot-2024-10-21-at-08-43-37.png)
(https://i.ibb.co/41qcMbp/Screenshot-2024-10-21-at-08-43-12.png)
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Go with this and see what happens. Email to TFL and copy to CDER Group Limited.
Subject: Stage 1 Formal Complaint Regarding ULEZ Fine and Enforcement Actions
Dear Transport for London,
I am writing to formally complain about CDER Group's enforcement actions regarding a ULEZ fine I received. My circumstances involve several breaches of the enforcement provisions outlined in Schedule 12 of the Tribunals Courts and Enforcement Act 2007 and its underlying regulations.
Background
In April 2024, I travelled to London for the first time in 12 years, avoiding the Congestion Charge Zone, which I believed was the only applicable charge. As a resident of Cheshire, I was unaware of the ULEZ charge due to my non-local status and lack of recent news updates.
I received a letter from CDER Group regarding this fine, but I have not received any correspondence from TfL. This could be due to ongoing issues with Royal Mail, potentially resulting in lost letters.
The first notification I received regarding this fine was from CDER, which indicated a significantly increased amount.
Upon contacting CDER to express my intention to contact TfL, I was informed that they could not halt enforcement actions unless instructed by TfL. CDER visited my residence the following day while I was abroad for 9-12 months.
My mother, who is vulnerable and lives alone, remains at the address, and I wish to avoid causing her any distress from further visits by CDER.
Complaint Details
The following breaches of enforcement provisions have occurred:
Failure to Notify: I did not receive any correspondence from TfL before the involvement of CDER Group. As per the regulations, proper notification should have been issued.
Inadequate Time to Respond: TfL's lack of communication has denied me the opportunity to address the fine promptly, as I would have paid immediately upon receipt of any notification.
Improper Enforcement Actions: CDER's immediate action without a response from TfL breaches the requirement for fair enforcement practices.
A limited company claiming to be an Enforcement Agent charged a £75 compliance stage fee; however, it cannot recover this amount, as the fee schedule applies only to certificated individual Enforcement Agents.
Resolution Advisories
To resolve this complaint, I respectfully request the following:
Reinstatement of Original Fine Amount: I'd like to ask that you consider reinstating the original fine amount based on my lack of prior notification and genuine ignorance of the ULEZ charge.
Review of CDER’s Enforcement Actions: Review CDER's enforcement actions to ensure compliance with the statutory requirements.
Hold on Enforcement Actions: Place any enforcement actions on hold until this matter is resolved, especially to prevent further visits to my vulnerable mother.
Direct Communication: Establish a direct line of communication regarding this issue, allowing me to discuss the matter without further escalation.
Acknowledgement of Complaint: Please acknowledge receipt of this complaint and provide a timeline for when I can expect a response.
Remove the £75 compliance stage fee; CDER Group Limited has no valid certificate to avail itself to the prescribed fee schedule.
I appreciate your attention and look forward to a prompt resolution. Please contact me as soon as possible to discuss how we can move forward.
Yours sincerely,
[Your Name]
Let us know what happens.
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You still haven't answered the question - is the address on the CDER letter identical to the address on the V5C for the car, and is the V5C address the same now as it was when the PCN was issued by TfL ?
Yes, sorry thought I answered it above. The address is the same. It hasn't changed since getting the car to this day
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You still haven't answered the question - is the address on the CDER letter identical to the address on the V5C for the car, and is the V5C address the same now as it was when the PCN was issued by TfL ?
The most common reason we see on here when bailiffs are at the OPs door is failure to keep the V5C for the car up-to-date. All the statutory enforcement documents served by TfL use the address on the V5C at the time the PCN was printed and mailed. You have not received all three of them. The bailiffs are very proactive in seeking out debtors, because their livelihood depends on it. At the moment, the amount you own them is the minimum. If they visit you then another £235 visit fee will be added on to the debt.
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This is the letter
(https://ibb.co/tMzm4c3)
https://ibb.co/tMzm4c3
For some reason it's not letting me attach although it's a very small size file, says the upload folder full
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And this statement is true: -
The address on your V5C is the same as the address on the CDER letter, and that V5C address has been the same as before the date of the ULEZ PCN ?
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Post the bailiff letter obscuring only name and address.
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What address is on the V5C logbook. That's where at least three letters will have been sent to.
I haven't changed address, it's the same as the first CDER letter
So, to confirm....
The address on your V5C is the same as the address on the CDER letter, and that V5C address has been the same as before the date of the ULEZ PCN ?
You have not received THREE statutory documents, all sent to the address on the V5C shortly after the alleged contravention was detected by TfL cameras
- Original PCN
- Charge Certificate
- Order for Recovery
No letters have been received :-[ The first was the CDER letter
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What address is on the V5C logbook. That's where at least three letters will have been sent to.
I haven't changed address, it's the same as the first CDER letter
So, to confirm....
The address on your V5C is the same as the address on the CDER letter, and that V5C address has been the same as before the date of the ULEZ PCN ?
You have not received THREE statutory documents, all sent to the address on the V5C shortly after the alleged contravention was detected by TfL cameras
- Original PCN
- Charge Certificate
- Order for Recovery
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What address is on the V5C logbook. That's where at least three letters will have been sent to.
I haven't changed address, it's the same as the first CDER letter
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What address is on the V5C logbook. That's where at least three letters will have been sent to.
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Hi everyone
After some advice.
I drove to London back in April 2024, and was extremely careful not going into the Congestion Charge Zone, which I believed was the only thing you had to pay for.
I live in Cheshire, and this was my first time going into London in like 12 years so had no idea about the Ulez. Maybe ignorance, I know, but I am not local from London, and do not keep up with the news regarding these charges.
Cutting long story short, I received a letter from CDER Group , however I didn't receive any letter from TfL at all (we did have troubles with Royal Mail, maybe letters getting lost) but point is the first time I heard about this fine was from CDER with obviously a very high amount now.
I emailed CDER to say that I will be contacting TfL, as if I had received any letters previously, I would of paid straight away and not letting this amount to a high now.
CDER replied that they cannot stop any enforcement unless their client (TfL) tells them and proceeded to visit my address the next day after their response. Obviously no one answered the door.
I am currently abroad and will be for the next 9-12 months (and even the car I drove is currently as : exported' due to being more than 1 year I will be abroad - still same car and reg as the fine) but my mother is at the address (who is vulnerable and disabled lives alone) and I obviously want to avoid CDER bothering her!
What would you advise is the best course of action for me ? Can I get in touch with TfL , is there a way to reinstate the original fine amount on the basis that I didn't receive any letter previously and stupidly wasn't even aware of Ulez as not local - I am now and clearly will not be repeating the same mistake in the future :(
Also, how do I stop CDER from visiting again or can they put the case on hold while I sort with TfL ?
Are CDER actually Bailiffs? What would happen should they decide to visit again ?
I just want to get this sorted asap, I would rather pay the original fine - but completely unsure on how to word it
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