Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: LondonTraveller84 on October 16, 2024, 06:50:36 pm
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Hi HC Anderson,
I've had a look at that entire requirement and I see they've met all those points including iii and V? or am I missing something here..
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OP, as a minor correction, the references are not to 4(8)... they should be to 4(8)(a)....
It's better if you see the requirement in full and then you can compare with the PCN, hopefully this would improve your understanding:
[4(8)(a)]
(8)A penalty charge notice under this section must—
(a)state—
(i)the grounds on which the council or, as the case may be, Transport for London believe that the penalty charge is payable with respect to the vehicle;
(ii)the amount of the penalty charge which is payable;
(iii)that the penalty charge must be paid before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of the notice;
(iv)that if the penalty charge is paid before the end of the period of 14 days beginning with the date of the notice, the amount of the penalty charge will be reduced by the specified proportion;
(v)that, if the penalty charge is not paid before the end of the 28 day period, an increased charge may be payable;
(vi)the amount of the increased charge;
(vii)the address to which payment of the penalty charge must be sent; and
(viii)that the person on whom the notice is served may be entitled to make representations under paragraph 1 of Schedule 1 to this Act; and
(b)specify the form in which any such representations are to be made.
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Hi Hippocrates, wondering if you're able to have a quick check on the below, so I can decide if I go forth with the appeal or bite the bullet on this and pay the discounted rate thats still odly showing even though its past the 14 days :O
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Read the sentence. It refers to 28 days from the date of service.
I've read it, possibly im missing something so obvious or my level english is not up to par with that required for this point of the appeal :/
Para. 4 (8 ) (V) doesn't mention anything about using either of the wording 'Service' or 'Notice' or that it has to be combined with Para. 4 (8 ) (iii) which they've stated on Page 1 of the PCN.
"If after the last day of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which this PCN is served no such representations have been made, and the penalty charge has not been paid, we may increase the penalty charge by 50% to £195 an may takes steps to enforce payment of the increased charge."
The 'And' would be correct, as you would have to have not done both of those, otherwise had you done one then they would not increase the fine.
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Read the sentence. It refers to 28 days from the date of service.
"If after the last day of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which this PCN is served no such representations have been made, and the penalty charge has not been paid, we may increase the penalty charge by 50% to £195 an may takes steps to enforce payment of the increased charge."
Is it that clear?
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2. I make this collateral challenge regarding the wording of the sentence "If after...." Since the PCN omits mandatory information that the PCN must be paid by 28 days beginning with the date of the notice, the said statement therefore conflates the two distinct time periods and renders the PCN unclear and invalid. In light of the above, please cancel.
Have read this, slightly confused, as it does have that mandatory information, on the first page of the PCN where it says 'The pentatly charge must be paid not later then the last day of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of this notice.
Am I misunderstanding this point?
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Interesting, never thought of appealing on the grounds of wording, a bit daunting as its a firt for me, and most probably they will reject, at which point the fine will deffinitly stick at £130.
Whats the likelyhood that those 2 ground mentioned would get this overturned at adjudication or is it a 50/50
1. This PCN is missing mandatory information. as provided at 4 (8 ) (v) of https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/2003/3/section/4/enacted
(v) that, if the penalty charge is not paid before the end of the 28 day period, an increased charge may be payable;
Clearly, this refers to Para. 4 (8 ) (iii):
(iii)that the penalty charge must be paid before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of the notice;
This is mentioned on one of the pages, see attached, at the end as part of the 'How to make represenation' it says
"If after the last day of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which this PCN is served no such representations have been made, and the penatly charge has not been paid, we may increase the penalty charge by 50% to £195 an dmay takes steps to enforce payment of the increased charge." - So I assume point 1 cannot be used any longer?
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1. This PCN is missing mandatory information. as provided at 4 (8 ) (v) of https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/2003/3/section/4/enacted
(v) that, if the penalty charge is not paid before the end of the 28 day period, an increased charge may be payable;
Clearly, this refers to Para. 4 (8 ) (iii):
(iii)that the penalty charge must be paid before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of the notice;
2. I make this collateral challenge regarding the wording of the sentence "If after...." Since the PCN omits mandatory information that the PCN must be paid by 28 days beginning with the date of the notice, the said statement therefore conflates the two distinct time periods and renders the PCN unclear and invalid. In light of the above, please cancel.
After thought: why not ask them for the original PCN? It will not be the same!
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Attached is the no right turn signs, which im not sure how I missed!
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All an update,
I've recieved the PCN again, which Im looking to pay, although I nearly forgot about it and its gone into 20 days, Notice (23/07/2025... so I thought I'll have to pay the full whack, however it's still showing £65 discount.. which is odd..
Before I do pay it and avoid the £130 hit, is there a way out of this one or not, it's a well known money earner and PCN hitting spot, where no left turn, there is a sign but I think many miss it and assume you can turn right as its only natural to do so at that location.. rather than going all the way left and around, attached is the PCN.
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See here: https://www.gov.uk/appeal-against-a-penalty-charge-notice/court-order
If you emailed the properly completed form to tec@justice.gov.uk then it's fine.
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Is the above ok? or do I need to post it out, as today i think may be hte last day for the 21 days.
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oops sorry, see attached
[attachment deleted by admin]
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got the below back
Nothing below???
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Great! ive followed the process and sent an email, got the below back assume this is sufficient as my proof and having responded within 21 days, although on the form itself it never mentioned this a method of replying?
a question, I assume they check these fairly soon, because otherwise it could go past the 21 days and they'll send out the next document (whatever that may be), not realising I've submitted this?
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It's on the front page of the OfR: London Borough of Havering, Traffic and Parking Control.........
You remain the Respondent.
+1
You are the Respondent, the council are the Applicant.
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It's on the front page of the OfR: London Borough of Havering, Traffic and Parking Control.........
You remain the Respondent.
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So I've signed it but not sure what to put in teh Applicant field at the top, on the reverse (front page) it has a similar box with the exact same details but says Havering Borough Council, in this respone PE2, would I be putting my name instead as applicant?
See attached
[attachment deleted by admin]
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OP, pl remember that you must sign in the presence of the witness, not in advance.
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You can scan and e-mail the form - see
https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/charge-certificates-london-local-authorities-and-tfl-act-2003-london-local-autho/
for details.
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So i've finally received a Order of Recovery - https://imgur.com/a/XcZJ6wH
Although Ive noticed the amount of charge is £130, fee is £10 but total is £205, I assume they have added the increased cost of penatly of £195?
So I just complete the 2nd page Statutary declration / PE3 and have it signed by a solicitor or at a county court and send it back (assume using some form of a tracked service)?
The charge is made up of (1) the original PCN £130 plus (2) the 50% uplift for the CHarge Certificate, and (3) the £10 TEC registration fee.
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So i've finally received a Order of Recovery - https://imgur.com/a/XcZJ6wH
Although Ive noticed the amount of charge is £130, fee is £10 but total is £205, I assume they have added the increased cost of penatly of £195?
So I just complete the 2nd page Statutary declration / PE3 and have it signed by a solicitor or at a county court and send it back (assume using some form of a tracked service)?
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Meanwhile, screenshot their grounds page. Before they correct it!
You mean Havering councils, ie this following snippets,
Nope: the page with the grounds of appeal.
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Just to let you know that it has taken 6 months for Havering to send me an Order For Recovery.
I called TEC on a weekly basis as couldn't trust that I would receive the paperwork from the council or Royal Mail
It also seems that there are many people in Havering who don't receive their Charge Notices as you may have seen on FB..
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Meanwhile, screenshot their grounds page. Before they correct it!
You mean Havering councils, ie this following snippets,
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Meanwhile, screenshot their grounds page. Before they correct it!
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Patience is a virtue!
You can't hurry love....or enforcement authorities!
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With respect, proactive doesn't mean hyperactive!
hehe I think I'm terrible on both fronts lol... I understand that process but as 'Incandescent' mentioned earlier that the statutory declaration cannot be submitted until the council have registered the debt, this I would know by either seeing an increase in the fine by £10 and/or receive a Order for Recovery letter, neither of which I have recieved... hence I'm in a limbo
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With respect, proactive doesn't mean hyperactive!
I've given the link to the enforcement process and extracted the following:
The completed statutory declaration should be returned to the traffic enforcement centre within 21 days beginning with the date of service of the Order for Recovery, although there are provisions for the court to allow longer.
https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/understanding-enforcement-process/moving-traffic-pcn-enforcement-process
So, every 14 days is fine as in the worst case you'd still have 7 days in which to submit your SD.(actually, the Guidance Notes issued by TEC say 'within 36 days of registration'). You should bear in mind that the signing of the SD must be witnessed either by a solicitor, at a fee no doubt, or FOC at your local court. Therefore time would be well spent finding out the whereabouts of your local court, how best to contact them and the mechanics of getting a SD witnessed.
Once the form [SD] has been completed it must be sworn i.e. signed before a Commissioner for Oaths (e.g. a Solicitor), or an Officer of a County Court appointed by the Judge to take affidavits, or a Justice of the Peace (Magistrates Court). (This service is available at most County Court Hearing
Centre, free but an appointment may be necessary).......If the form has not been properly witnessed, the TEC will not be able to process it.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6037706ee90e070558e4299b/pe3-guidance-eng.pdf
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Hi All,
The PCN is still sitting at £195, looks like they have not registered it at the TEC yet, what options do I have, as i know the letter and their website says I cannot appeal or do anything until I receive the next letter.
Regards
Qamar
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We've seen weeks or even months before councils register PCNs at TEC. There is no time limit on them in the regulations, as far as I know, although there may be a limit in higher legislation.
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No. It simply means they cannot register within the 14-day period not that they will register immediately it's lapsed.
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Nope, pro-active mode on now, I'll call them tomorrow in that case, deffinitly don't want to miss the time window to submit the SD .
As far as I know from Havering letter they would have waited 14 days then started to register it, meaning the start of this month.
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You can only submit the SD to TEC when Havering register the debt. If you submit before they do this, TEC will just reject it as they have no record of the PCN until it is registered. SOme councils can be very slow in registering, I'm afraid. Have you phoned TEC to check ? AS I said, you need to be proactive; you don't want to miss the time window to submit the SD in-time. Once you get out-of-time to submit, it is a whole new ball game.
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Enceladus. Reuploaded asrequested inline with the rules - https://imgur.com/7CPo3EO
Incandescent. I was more procrastianted then pro-active :'( although it has now been way beyond the 14 days and an additional 20 days and I have not recieved the Recovery of Order in the post, nor has the PCN increased by £10.
I assume, I still go ahead and submit the form you've said, which I believe is the PE2: Application to file a statutory declaration out of time? If yes would the following suffice, excuse the CAPs, as the form reque
"A PCN in relation to this contravention was never received by post, the first I came to know about this was when I received a charge certificate. I waited for a order of recovery as per the process to allow me to appeal, but have still not recieved this in the post, hence i have been advised to submit this form."
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Please have a read of the READ THIS FIRST - **BEFORE POSTING YOUR CASE!** (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/) sticky post at the top of page 1 of this forum. And then correct your posted document so that the PCN number and the vehicle reg are visible. It's only necessary to redact your name & address.
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This is an easy job provided you are proactive from this point on.
When the council register the debt at TEC, they MUST send you an Order for Recovery. This adds on £10 to the CC amount, but allows you to submit a Statutory Declaration that the PCN was not received. The form for this is normally included with the OfR, but you can download it from the TEC website: -
https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/traffic-enforcement-centre-forms
If your post is dodgy, (as it seems to be nowadays in London especially), you need to keep checking the status of the PCN at weekly intervals, and when the amount increases by £10, you can expect the OfR but you don't have to receive it to submit the SD. All you do is download the form from TEC, fill it in, get it witnessed, (about £10) and send it off with the box for "I did not receive the PCN" ticked. Nothing else is needed, no reasons etc.
What you are doing by submitting a Statutory Declaration to TEC is telling them that you did not receive the PCN. You are not submitting anything about the contravention itself. Once your SD is accepted, the matter reverts to the PCN stage, at which point you can either cough-up or submit representations against it.
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Hi All,
Just recived a Charge Notice form Havering council for a contravention, that having reviewed the evidence based after receiving this notice, I can say took place, where by I made a right turn where it was not allowed, I clearly had not noticed or seen the sign but as it stands the contravention took place, so no denying that.
Attached Letter - https://imgur.com/a/4H7Aat2
The issue is I had not received the initial PCN, Now the charge is £195 - How can I appeal this, as I genuinely had not received any letter, else I would have paid the discount rate (£65) rather then the miss this, and the full amount (£130) and opt to pay an increased rate (£195) just doesn't make sense.
Looking at the council website (https://www.havering.gov.uk/parking-2/parking-tickets-traffic-fines/2), it actually has a section for 'I have a Charge Certificate but have not had a Penalty Charge Notice' which is quite crazy, nonethless it states the following, sounds a bit duanting the thought of a recovery order.
"If you have not received a PCN but have received a Charge Certificate, please wait for an Order for Recovery to be issued that will enable you to make a Witness Statement or Statutory Declaration against the PCN on the grounds that the PCN was not received."
However their own policy below, sort of contradicts the above by saying ""Not applicable as a Regulation 10 PCN will be issued by post" on Page 19, G1.5 - https://www.havering.gov.uk/downloads/file/96/policy-for-enforcing-or-cancelling-a-pc
Await for some advice, as it'll be a shame to get penalised above and beyond for something that genuinly didn't take place.
P.S a country court order means another £10 is added :O