Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: joshua.rowen.press@googlemail.com on October 13, 2024, 11:18:29 pm
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As a measure of how difficult it is to tell the future Haringey have just cancelled a PCN for another client at the same place despite being satisfied the PCN was correct.
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To bring all readers up to date.
I started the paperwork for an Appeal but then went to look at recent decisions for this location.
I found that adjduicators Harman, Hoare and Houghton had all refused Appeals.
I am in front of two of those adjudicators regularly and would have had to show them why the signage, which they previously found to be adequate, was inadequate.
I felt the chances were less than 50/50 so after some debate with the OP the 50% has been paid.
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Yes, I need to send you an authority letter to sign.
I will be back at my desk tomorrow.
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Did you receive my email on Friday?
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I will email you.
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Go on let’s give it a go. What do I do next ?
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The signage is confusing because of the arrow. The website is pants as it does not list any grounds. So, I am up for it if mrmustard does not wish to pursue.
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The standard 'there is nothing wrong' response.
Decision time. Either pay the 50% or take the risk on an Appeal.
My personal view is that the signage won't stand up to scrutiny by an adjudicator and we are just before Xmas when councils sling the towel in on lots of Appeals.
The problem with the system is that say I am 70/30 on winning, the answer is win or lose, a binary choice.
Not an easy decision as all adjudicators make decisions on signage based upon how they see it.
Also we have to factor in how much an extra £65 means to the motorist; some can laugh it off but other people's finances are nore stretched.
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Mr Mustard, it has arrived…
Rejected appeal as expected.
https://imgur.com/a/rDJ2py5
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Best start a thread in the flame pit
Plus a letter to the relevant authorities. And I reckon we are being watched.
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what’s your fee to represent someone at tribunal ?
I would accept mrmustard's offer. No question.
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Best start a thread in the flame pit
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I am having a bad year and only won 76% of my tribunal cases in 2024.
That was due to 10 cases being the subject of an about turn by adjudicators on what was previously a winning argument; I am usually at 80-90%
I wager some of these arguments were technical. This why we need a higher Tribunal as in Scotland. Or a "man of straw" like me. I am tempted to take several issues to the High Court. No car. No money. No problem. A hired one will suffice. Fee exemption plus a protected costs order. I am thinking of leaving this crazy lottery with a bang. Serious. 8)
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There is a key steps tab which may enlighten you further
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Hi guys just went into check to see whether my appeal had been rejected/accepted as I hadn’t received any correspondence back from Haringey.
I log in and the outstanding ammount is still £65
However the notification says NTO/ENF letter sent.
I logged my appeal around a month ago. Does this mean it’s still processing ?
https://imgur.com/a/NDFRN39
Many Thanks
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see the footer on my posts - zero
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what’s your fee to represent someone at tribunal ?
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Fair enough HCA.
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@ Mr. Mustard, If you are going to pay up if rejected by the council then it was futile to come on here at all (other readers please note).
A tad hard IMO.
OPs come here to have their cases examined by us, not necessarily because they think they have solid cases. Just as we cannot guarantee outcomes - you referenced in a previous post that even adjudicators seem able to adopt contrary positions based upon essentially the same facts- so the ultimate decision in each case as to whether to pay must be with OPs. I would not like to feel that OPs felt obligated to see matters through to tribunal simply because we had spent time considering their cases.
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AI won't show what percentage of formal representations that Haringey Council reject but it will be a high percentage.
It won't show if any cases have been decided by the tribunal as that requires a database search.
I have searched for 2024 decisions and there are none and this is a new restriction and as most of the public wet their knickers at the thought of losing the discount only 1% of PCNs end up at the tribunal.
If you are prepared to forget about the discount and chance your arm at the tribunal then yes I can be your representative.
I am having a bad year and only won 76% of my tribunal cases in 2024.
That was due to 10 cases being the subject of an about turn by adjudicators on what was previously a winning argument; I am usually at 80-90%
If you are going to pay up if rejected by the council then it was futile to come on here at all (other readers please note).
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No, it’s not. I used it to see if there was an appeals won despite the advanced warning signs.
Can you elaborate on the 40m of clear head way rule? Also if rejected will you appeal at tribunal? Do you feel confident that the advanced warning sign isn’t an adequate defence on the councils part. Good luck in any case and thank you for the help.
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Mr Mustard is no artificial ingredient.
Must say I'm not hopeful on this one. There are multiple appeals won at tribunal on similar signage but usually the point is made about a lack of advance traffic signs.
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Is atificial intelligence better than actual intelligence? If not, use my words.
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Any reply yet ? Please keep me updated
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Chat gpt’s attempt, the future is now
Subject: Appeal Against PCN for Frobisher Road
Dear Sir/Madam,
I am writing to formally appeal against the Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) issued to me for allegedly driving in a pedestrian zone at Frobisher Road.
Upon approaching from Wightman Road, I found it very difficult to see any clear signage indicating the restriction, apart from an advance warning sign approximately 40 yards before the turn. As I am not familiar with the area and given that the signage is relatively new, I believe it is easy for drivers to miss.
To further substantiate my appeal, I have obtained dashcam footage from another driver who experienced a similar issue at the same location. This footage clearly demonstrates the challenges in noticing the signage and reinforces my claim regarding its inadequate visibility.
I understand that the pedestrian zone is part of a School Streets initiative aimed at improving safety and air quality during school hours . While I fully support such initiatives, it is crucial that the signage is clear and effective to prevent unwitting violations by drivers, particularly those unfamiliar with the area.
Given these circumstances, I kindly request that you review my case, taking into account the dashcam evidence, and consider cancelling the PCN based on the insufficient visibility of the signage.
Thank you for your understanding.
Yours faithfully,
[Your Name]
[Your Address]
[Your Contact Information]
[PCN Number]
Make sure to mention that you are including the dashcam footage as supporting evidence when you submit your appeal. This addition strengthens your case by providing concrete evidence of the signage issue.
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As post 7, short and simple
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Thanks Mr Mustard, any chance you can email me ?
What was the wording of your appeal ?
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A warning sign isn't adequate on its own if the main signage is found to be wanting.
I have a video of the approach on this narrow winding road which shows it is hard to take your eyes off the road to look up to the left.
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Given that there is an ‘advance sign’ roughly 40 yards on the approach, on what grounds could one appeal?
on the grounds that they don’t include the signage in their photographic evidence, they the camera is incorrectly located ?
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This is in a recent batch of school streets in Haringey and I can't see any tribunal cases but the database is dreadful as the location search often fails unless you get the terms right especially for zones, junctions.
Will be interesting to see if they raise the advance sign, which is a proper sign, as evidence.
(https://i.imgur.com/nSjqL5X.jpeg)
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Also issues with their website.
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I have challenged a PCN at this location and relied on this photo taken from my dashcam
(https://i.ibb.co/vxXdb2q/locale.png) (https://imgbb.com/)
All I wrote was this:
Signage is inadequate to alert a driver of the restriction there not being the necessary 40m of clear head on view to the signs.
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Thank you for looking into this. If anything comes to mind please let me know, I have a few more days of the discounted PCN available.
To me as a layman, a fairly new sign at an angle you only observe having once begun indicating is so easy to miss…it feels as if there should be a grace period for first time offenders.
I think what may have happened is that I drove through this road when the schools were out several weeks before and there was no sign. I can’t be sure of this, and I have no way to prove it. I do my best to be extra vigilant with ‘pedestrian zones’, as I’m sure you all do. I’m always surprised to get caught out.
Driving through London these days is like a gauntlet, I loathe it. If it isn’t traffic and temporary traffic lights, it’s greedy councils devising more schemes to take our money from us.
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I'll have a look on the tribunal register - there may be allowed appeals despite the advance sign.
(https://i.imgur.com/JfAQXhq.gif)
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The photos do seem to be clear enough, I have to say. cp8759, Our adminstrator always says submit reps for any and every traffic contravention, so hopefully he can suggest what to put in them.
There are any number of things that can get a PCN cancelled, e.g. the traffic order may be deficient, the signs were obscured etc. Submitting reps gets the PCN kicked into touch for a while thus allowing detailed checks on the location to be made.
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https://imgur.com/a/LJiu43k
https://imgur.com/a/yhOqAeq
So unfortunately there is a sign around 40 yards before the approach to Frobisher, and I’ve sent the entry to Frobisher too. Not quite sure how I missed it, I think it’s because this is a route I’ve taken in the past to my mechanic and this must be a relatively new signage.
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Yes, I will drive through today or tomorrow to see what I can find. Thank you for the quick and helpful response.
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Thw video shows you entering the street, but the camera is located on the restricted street, so doesn't show you passing any sign. It merely shows you and another car, turning left into the street.
As well as the above, it is either a left or right turn into this street, so the council should have erected advance warning signs to alert you. Trouble is GSV Street View is May 2023, and doesn't show the signs. Is there any possibility you can do some legwork and post photos of the approach ?
I suggest you submit representations on the following lines: =
Dear Sirs
Re PCN <PCN Number> dated <dd/mm/yyyy for location <location name>
I deny responsibility for the above PCN on the grounds that the contravention did not occur.
Your video shows my car turning left into the street concerned, but does not show me passing any signs advising of the restriction. In addition to this, there are no signs advising of any restriction on the approach whilst driving on Wightman Road.
I therefore request that the PCN be cancelled forthwith
Yours faithfully
To win PCNs like this, you must be prepared to take them to London Tribunals, and forget about the discount option. Councils rely for their millions of pounds of PCN cash on people just coughing-up to get closure.
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https://imgur.com/a/synFvN0
https://imgur.com/a/gtEIuSE
https://maps.app.goo.gl/J69YSecTc9aXdDFY8?g_st=ic
Dear forum,
Are there any grounds where I may have a chance to appeal this PCN? I drove through it completely oblivious, this is the second time this has happened to me this Summer.
In my experience the pedestrian zone signage is very easy to miss especially in an area you don’t know well. They seem to be a real money trap, and can hardly imagine how many people get caught driving through them unawares day to day.
Thanks in advance for any advice you can offer me.
Best, JP