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Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: fttboy on August 07, 2023, 12:49:12 pm

Title: Re: Barking 52M Failing to comply with prohibition
Post by: SunSunSuu on November 12, 2025, 07:40:47 pm
Hey guys, i got this same PCN and decided to fight it. They denied my initial appeal and and i'm now formally challenging it. However in doing my research i have found someone has already appeal and won through this location for station parade barking:

https://londontribunals.org.uk/ords/pwslive/f?p=14952:70::INITIALISE::70:P70_CAS_REFNO,P70_PCN_REFNO,P70_RETURN_PAGE,P70_AST_CODE:1560981,2934024,60,APPEAL&cs=3H7-QAGGBgo46pi6iU1kXG-y4f42hNViXVMZPwLIUNyDq6zVCnBeJreOMW8b-JSDVeoVQaXNsgP5T50WZpiuYig

the case reference is 2230142184

"Mr Oliviera attended today.
The CCTV footage shows the appellant’s car drive past signs on each side of the carriageway in Station Parade that indicate that motor vehicles are prohibited. The appellant accepts that he drove past the signs however he argues that there is insufficient warning of the restriction and that by the time a driver sees the signs it is not possible to easily make a U turn. The appellant provides images from google street view in support of his argument. During the hearing I looked at google street view images from March 2022.
The local authority argues that there is sufficient warning of the restriction and that the signs are clear.
The appellant drove from Linton Road and turned right into Cambridge Road. At the junction of Cambridge Road and Station Parade it is not permitted to turn right as there is a pedestrian zone. The no motor vehicles signs are a short distance after a driver turns left. I find that the signs are not visible before a driver turns left.
The local authority provides a photograph of a warning sign in Linton Road. The sign indicates that there is no left turn at the first turning on the left and that all other routes are the second turn on the left. Straight ahead is access to Linton Road only. The road on the right is prohibited to vehicles over 7.5 tonnes except for buses and Vicarage Fields. The sign indicates that the station is to the right. Mr Oliviera was driving to the station.
I find that the warning sign in Linton Road relates only to vehicles over 7.5 tonnes and not to all motor vehicles. I find that the sign does not clearly indicate that all motor vehicles need to take the second turn on the left.
There is an additional yellow warning sign that states no access to Station Parade from Cambridge Road. Mr Oliviera argues that a driver might not know the names of the roads.
Although there is no obligation for any warning sign in this case if a motorist reaches the junction of Cambridge Road and Station Parade they see a sign indicating that there is a pedestrian zone on the right. The no motor vehicles signs are a short distance from the left turn. The road is outside a station and opposite a car park ramp and it does not appear to be a place where it would appropriate to carry out a U turn. I find that the sign in Linton Road does not give adequate warning of the restriction and that in the absence of clear warning I find that the overall signage for the restriction in Station Parade is unclear.
I allow this appeal."

Ill inform on my appeal to but heres what i said is:
"I appeal on the ground that the alleged contravention did not occur because the signage at Station Parade, Barking, fails to adequately convey the restriction to motorists approaching the location and creates an entrapment situation where compliance is impossible once committed.

Under Regulation 18(1) of the Local Authorities’ Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996 and Regulation 10(1) of the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 (TSRGD), the authority must ensure that restrictions are clearly indicated and visible in time for drivers to comply safely. The Traffic Signs Manual (Chapter 3, paras 1.21 & 3.1.2) states that regulatory signs must provide adequate advance warning where immediate compliance would be unsafe or impracticable.

At Station Parade, the “No Motor Vehicles – Except buses, taxis and cycles” sign is positioned only after a driver has already turned, leaving no safe or lawful way to turn around. There is no adequate advance warning, and once the sign becomes visible, the motorist is effectively trapped. This layout has created an ongoing entrapment location that has caught many otherwise law-abiding drivers who cannot reasonably comply.

Furthermore, the enforcement authority failed to properly consider my earlier representation as required by Schedule 1, Paragraph 5(2) of the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003. My challenge specifically raised the inadequate signage, absence of advance warning, and unsafe layout. The council’s rejection addressed only my reference to Google Maps, ignoring the substantive signage issues. This constitutes a failure to consider and therefore a procedural impropriety.

This same restriction and layout have already been ruled inadequate by the Adjudicator in Case 2230142184 (Vitor Da Silva Oliveira v London Borough of Barking and Dagenham, 27 March 2023). In that case, the Adjudicator found that the signs are not visible before a driver turns, that the advance sign on Linton Road does not give adequate warning, and that the overall signage for Station Parade is unclear. The Adjudicator also observed that a driver cannot make a safe U-turn once committed. As the conditions remain unchanged, the same reasoning applies here.

For these reasons, the signage fails to provide adequate advance warning, the layout creates an unavoidable entrapment situation, and the council failed to properly consider my representations."
Title: Re: Barking 52M Failing to comply with prohibition
Post by: cp8759 on January 08, 2024, 12:51:44 am
Outcome (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1bfPO7ehc0_9O1OVpz0s2Jm1f_KKB59H3).
Title: Re: Barking 52M Failing to comply with prohibition
Post by: cp8759 on October 05, 2023, 06:41:03 pm
I've dropped you a PM.
Title: Re: Barking 52M Failing to comply with prohibition
Post by: fttboy on October 03, 2023, 03:49:19 pm
Thanks. I am happy for you to represent me.

What do I have to do now?
Title: Re: Barking 52M Failing to comply with prohibition
Post by: cp8759 on October 03, 2023, 12:57:05 pm
If you want to appeal to the tribunal I'm happy to represent you.

The adjudicator cannot consider mitigating or aggravating factors, either the contravention occurred or it didn't.
Title: Re: Barking 52M Failing to comply with prohibition
Post by: fttboy on October 03, 2023, 02:19:55 am

I have until end of today to pay discounted charge.

An appeal at this stage is going to the tribunal, right?
I will need your guidance for that.

As an aside, and for my edification, would an adjudicator not view appealing after the council has been at first hand conciliatory as abuse of process of resolution? Just curious.
Title: Re: Barking 52M Failing to comply with prohibition
Post by: cp8759 on October 02, 2023, 12:12:27 pm
Yes you're right, for some reason they've structured the letter in an unusual way, normally the discounted amount is mentioned first.

Anyway, I think there is a viable appeal against that PCN based on the position of the bus in the video, I don't think you could have seen the sign. You now need to decide whether you want to pursue an appeal on that point, or whether you want to take the discount offer.
Title: Re: Barking 52M Failing to comply with prohibition
Post by: fttboy on October 01, 2023, 07:32:42 pm
Hi,
agreed, not a bad position at all; 3 out of 4.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I got the impression that they re-offered the 50% discount until the end of the period of 14 days beginning from the date of service of the letter [cf 3rd paragraph on page 2 of PCN: BZ99502628]. That being what we had  invited the council to consider in the representation.

But if I have misunderstood the text I'll  be happy for you to take the case forward.
Thanks
Title: Re: Barking 52M Failing to comply with prohibition
Post by: cp8759 on October 01, 2023, 12:38:39 am
Well that's three out of four, so not a bad start.

At this point if they'd reoffered the 50% discount for PCN BZ99502628 then I would have suggested that, unless someone could identify a fairly solid ground of appeal, you might want to consider paying it.

However as they've not reoffered the discount, there's really no point in paying now: you might as well appeal as the penalty stays the same if you lose, and goes down to £0 if you win.

Fortunately the one they haven't cancelled is the one where the sign would have been obscured by the bus.

Would you like me to represent you at the tribunal?
Title: Re: Barking 52M Failing to comply with prohibition
Post by: fttboy on September 30, 2023, 01:49:02 pm

The other three letters of cancellation on goodwill gesture

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Barking 52M Failing to comply with prohibition
Post by: fttboy on September 30, 2023, 01:45:07 pm

the other part of notice of rejection

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Barking 52M Failing to comply with prohibition
Post by: fttboy on September 30, 2023, 01:42:47 pm

UPDATE ON THIS MATTER

I received reply from Barking & Dagenham. There were four separate letters, the first was Notice of rejection of representation for PCN number BZ99502628. But the following three were letters of cancellation on goodwill gesture only.

They appear to have acceded to the request to pay one of the penalty charges at the discounted rate

I have attached letters.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Barking 52M Failing to comply with prohibition
Post by: cp8759 on August 15, 2023, 09:41:20 pm
Quote from: fttboy on August 15, 2023, 09:38:30 pm
@cp8759
Awesome. Couldn't agree more with absolutely spot on revisions.
I'll type the letter now and prepare all documents for posting with recorded delivery 2mrw, filming every step as you advised.
Will let you know how it goes.
Thanks again for the immense help.
You don't need to send it recorded delivery, 1st class post is fine.
Title: Re: Barking 52M Failing to comply with prohibition
Post by: fttboy on August 15, 2023, 09:38:30 pm
@cp8759
Awesome. Couldn't agree more with absolutely spot on revisions.
I'll type the letter now and prepare all documents for posting with recorded delivery 2mrw, filming every step as you advised.
Will let you know how it goes.
Thanks again for the immense help.
Title: Re: Barking 52M Failing to comply with prohibition
Post by: cp8759 on August 15, 2023, 04:50:36 pm
Slight revision:

Dear London Borough of Barking & Dagenham,

I write in regards to the penalty charge notices (PCNs) Barking & Dagenham 52M Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicles (motor vehicles) on Longbridge Road (Barking) (Prohibition Zone), and Station Parade (Barking), the vehicle haven been seen and recorded by road-side cameras between the hours of 10:17 and 16:26 Hrs on 27/07/2023.

I accept that the council has the right to issue the PCNs for the contraventions. I would however like to ask the borough to be mindful of  proportionality in pursuing its statutory rights in this case. As can be seen from the PCNs the contraventions occurred on the same day and within minutes of each other in the morning around past 10 am and again in the afternoon around past 1600 hrs, also being my first time driving through the stretch of road named Longbridge road/Station parade. The objective of the PCN, which is to enforce moving traffic restrictions, is adequately served by one PCN. I am obviously now aware of the restrictions and will not be making the same mistake again, so it could be said that I have learnt my lesson.

In the circumstances, I invite the council to consider the totality of the circumstances and allow me to pay one of the penalty charges at the discounted rate of £65, and cancelling the remaining three PCNs.

Yours faithfully,
Title: Re: Barking 52M Failing to comply with prohibition
Post by: fttboy on August 15, 2023, 02:42:05 pm
Hi,
@cp8759 please draft letter of appeal to council

Dear London Borough of Barking & Dagenham,

I write in regards to the penalty charge notices (PCNs) Barking & Dagenham 52M Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicles (motor vehicles) on Longbridge Road (Barking) (Prohibition Zone), and Station Parade (Barking), the vehicle haven been seen and recorded by road-side cameras between the hours of 10:17 and 16:26 Hrs on 27/07/2023. And to confirm that I wish to make a representation and invite the Borough to exercise discretion in this case, by cancelling three of the PCNs, and allowing me to pay one at the discounted rate.

Granted that council has the right to issue the PCNs for the contraventions on back of traffic regulations. I will like to ask the borough to be mindful of  proportionality in pursuing its statutory rights in this case. As can be seen from the PCNs the contraventions occurred on the same day and within minutes of each other in the morning around past 10 am and again in the afternoon around past 1600 hrs, also being my first time of driving through the stretch of road named Longbridge road/Station parade. The objective of the PCN, which is to bring to the notice of road users the application of the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 with respect to complying with a prohibition on certain types of motor vehicles on this particular stretch of road in Barking, is adequately serve by one PCN. And I wish to submit that paying one PCN satisfies the exigencies required for contravention 52M.

Thank you for a timely and considerate view of my representation.

Regards
Title: Re: Barking 52M Failing to comply with prohibition
Post by: fttboy on August 15, 2023, 11:00:13 am
@cp8759
Grand plan. Very much appreciated.
I'll post draft shortly.

Title: Re: Barking 52M Failing to comply with prohibition
Post by: cp8759 on August 14, 2023, 05:31:29 pm
@fttboy in the circumstances, I would write a representation inviting the authority to exercise its discretion by cancelling three of the PCNs, and allowing you to pay one at the discounted rate.

In order to force them to take a wholistic view, this should be done in a letter to be sent by post (if you challenge them online, they'll inevitably be dealt with individually, which we don't want).

As the PCN requires you to use pages 3 & 4 of the PCN to make a challenge by post, you'll have to send (all in one envelope):

1) The form on pages 3 & 5 of each PCN, duly completed and signed, and in the "representations" box just write "see attached letter"
2) The letter you are going to write.

There is a possibility that they might accept and cancel a couple of the PCNs.

There is also a possibility that they might ignore the representation for some of the PCNs and just issue a charge certificate, which would then give you grounds to file a statutory declaration and then pursue the case at the tribunal for failure to consider (which would be an open-and-shut win).

If you go down this route, I would recommend going to the postbox with all the paperwork, films the various pages so that the PCN numbers on the form are visible, film the letter, film yourself putting all the pages in the envelope, sealing the envelope and posting it. That way, if the council considers representations for some of the PCNs but not others, they can't dispute that you did in fact make representations.

In the first instance I suggest you write a draft based on the arguments of proportionality and put it on here for review.
Title: Re: Barking 52M Failing to comply with prohibition
Post by: fttboy on August 11, 2023, 11:21:16 am
Hi all,

An update. this must be dark humour from Barking & Dagenham. I received 2 more PCNs for the same date - 27/07/2023, and times, for Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle (52M). This time round relating to Station Parade [previous two were for Longbridge Rd].

So, it appears to be 1 stretch of road that has 2 sections named differently [Longbridge road and Station parade] with signage and camera at both ends. Looking at google map (although dated March 2022; didn't find later versions), there is hardly any way to avoid getting caught out once you miss the poorly placed signs.

Is there any way(s) I can improve chances of a reprieve in an appeal? Every help required now. :'(

Thanks

Links to documents attached;
https://acrobat.adobe.com/id/urn:aaid:sc:EU:ef1a6f25-8a9f-4704-9678-841819467c8e
https://acrobat.adobe.com/id/urn:aaid:sc:EU:2ac8a9c2-1106-4398-b192-df1ef25d2eb3
https://acrobat.adobe.com/id/urn:aaid:sc:EU:d04cc103-6eb2-4af4-8407-2ff3029e0f7f
https://acrobat.adobe.com/id/urn:aaid:sc:EU:3b361481-dc84-4f88-9f5a-5b834eb76f3f

https://acrobat.adobe.com/id/urn:aaid:sc:EU:cc45b5b7-4cdb-4382-b922-7fa674d7e963
https://acrobat.adobe.com/id/urn:aaid:sc:EU:c7443b21-b8fa-45ed-8c6b-0ad68bfc1454
https://acrobat.adobe.com/id/urn:aaid:sc:EU:546d103a-6653-4cd1-9280-2a01bd851b35
https://acrobat.adobe.com/id/urn:aaid:sc:EU:aff38f2d-2cb6-4b35-9cdf-29388c87395b

https://goo.gl/maps/hL7QEiWD79RwYdtg6
Title: Re: Barking 52M Failing to comply with prohibition
Post by: fttboy on August 10, 2023, 11:05:47 am
@cp8759
Thanks for this information.
The way I'm seeing it appears that my appeal will hinge on poor signage and prohibition on U-turn on those roads.

Like you said, perhaps someone might add something to it.

Much appreciated.
Title: Re: Barking 52M Failing to comply with prohibition
Post by: cp8759 on August 09, 2023, 11:16:07 pm
Traffic order here: The London Borough of Barking and Dagenham (Banned Turns and Prohibitions) (Various Roads) Order 2022 (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1_zw1Mjc1LJXQITIn_6yS6wusdVzA5x4q).

Short of trying to trip up the authority, I can't see anything to go on here. See what others say.
Title: Re: Barking 52M Failing to comply with prohibition
Post by: fttboy on August 08, 2023, 10:18:05 am
Reply #4
So you passed these signs?
https://goo.gl/maps/oMBLgtQiCZyv5QwE.

I must have passed them. But I never saw them..[no excuses] but coming round the roundabout on lane 2/3 and then heading for that restriction zone it is near impossible to notice them b4 you have gone through, particularly if you are driving on that road for the first time.

@cp8759
the other pages relate to representations. Sorry that I did not attach earlier.



[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Barking 52M Failing to comply with prohibition
Post by: John U.K. on August 07, 2023, 09:18:45 pm
Quote
Maybe for the first one you could argue that the sign was obscured by the bus. I can't see an offside sign on GSV.

The nearside sign is an oddity - perhaps there for the camera's benefit?
As far as I could see, the OP had to have passed these
https://goo.gl/maps/oMBLgtQiCZyv5QwE8

which is why I asked him to confirm. Reply#4
Title: Re: Barking 52M Failing to comply with prohibition
Post by: cp8759 on August 07, 2023, 08:26:27 pm
BZ99502628:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcGO2365mig

BZ9950280A:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s57FlF3zvM8

Maybe for the first one you could argue that the sign was obscured by the bus. I can't see an offside sign on GSV.

Also, there should be more pages?
Title: Re: Barking 52M Failing to comply with prohibition
Post by: John U.K. on August 07, 2023, 04:31:18 pm
So you passed these signs?
https://goo.gl/maps/oMBLgtQiCZyv5QwE8
Title: Re: Barking 52M Failing to comply with prohibition
Post by: fttboy on August 07, 2023, 04:16:15 pm

Hello,

thanks @cp8759 and @John U.K.   I have attached google street map link below

https://goo.gl/maps/Bk7rK6kKtMkAFVwe8
Title: Re: Barking 52M Failing to comply with prohibition
Post by: cp8759 on August 07, 2023, 01:08:37 pm
@fttboy read the instructions here (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/) for how to share the google street view location (you need to do this on a computer, not a phone / ipad).
Title: Re: Barking 52M Failing to comply with prohibition
Post by: John U.K. on August 07, 2023, 12:56:02 pm
Please post a GSV link to the location - there's a lot of Longbridge Road(s) in Barking!
Title: Barking 52M Failing to comply with prohibition
Post by: fttboy on August 07, 2023, 12:49:12 pm
Hi,
I read some posts about successful appeal against failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicles (52M) but there seemed to have been mitigating circumstances on that occasion.
I received penalty charge notice (PCN) from Barking & Dagenham for driving on prohibited section of Longbridge Road, Barking dated 03/08/2023.
I hadn't been aware of prohibition on a section of that road, and certainly didn't notice any sign. I drove through in the morning and again later in the afternoon so I have received two PCNs dated same day but different times. If paid b4 end of 14 day period I can pay a discounted charge of £65 for each otherwise I am looking at £260 total.
Is there any ground for appeal? Links to PCNs are attached below. Thanks for the anticipated feedback.

(https://i.imgur.com/tYM1G7B.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/742K35y.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/Z0VUG1u.png)

[attachment deleted by admin]