Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Speeding and other criminal offences => Topic started by: gm1985 on October 10, 2024, 01:52:01 pm

Title: Re: NOIP 24 in 20 zone
Post by: Dave Green on October 11, 2024, 02:40:40 pm
Sorry might be a dumb question but who is the victim to warrant a victim surcharge. The road was empty of cars and pedestrians where I was driving.

https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/sentencing-and-the-council/types-of-sentence/other-orders-made-on-sentencing/what-is-the-victim-surcharge/
Title: Re: NOIP 24 in 20 zone
Post by: Southpaw82 on October 11, 2024, 12:02:00 pm
Sorry might be a dumb question but who is the victim to warrant a victim surcharge. The road was empty of cars and pedestrians where I was driving.

Victims in general, not a specific victim. It’s levelled on all fines.
Title: Re: NOIP 24 in 20 zone
Post by: Logician on October 11, 2024, 12:01:31 pm
It is not related to your specific case, it is a general fund for all crime victims, or a surcharge on all fines, depending on how you look at it.


You would be very ill-advised to contest this case on the basis of inadequate signage in my view, looking at Google Streetview, that is a very flimsy argument.
Title: Re: NOIP 24 in 20 zone
Post by: 666 on October 11, 2024, 11:56:30 am
Sorry might be a dumb question but who is the victim to warrant a victim surcharge. The road was empty of cars and pedestrians where I was driving.

The Criminal Injuries Compensation Scheme exists to help victims. It is (partly) funded by the surcharge, which applies to all fines in criminal courts.
Title: Re: NOIP 24 in 20 zone
Post by: DrSatan on October 11, 2024, 11:52:57 am
Sorry might be a dumb question but who is the victim to warrant a victim surcharge. The road was empty of cars and pedestrians where I was driving.
The money from victim surcharges effectively dumped in one big pot and is used to fund general victim services, and you don't escape it by arguing that there was no specific victim in your case.
Title: Re: NOIP 24 in 20 zone
Post by: BertB on October 11, 2024, 11:52:38 am
Its a collective fund. Basically a tax added to all guilty verdicts, there doesn't need to be a victim in each individual case.
Title: Re: NOIP 24 in 20 zone
Post by: gm1985 on October 11, 2024, 11:11:32 am
Sorry might be a dumb question but who is the victim to warrant a victim surcharge. The road was empty of cars and pedestrians where I was driving.
Title: Re: NOIP 24 in 20 zone
Post by: 666 on October 11, 2024, 10:31:56 am
If I was to challenge the fine and went to court, would the most likely outcome if I lost 25%-75% of my weekly wage.
50%, in the absence of any mitigating or aggravating factors you haven't disclosed.

Plus the victim surcharge: 40% of the fine.

Plus prosecution costs: c.£600.

And three points.
Title: Re: NOIP 24 in 20 zone
Post by: BertB on October 11, 2024, 10:27:03 am
The street view I’m looking at was June 2024, but I will go in person and check

The streetview for the location you have attempted to link to is dated 2022 as NJ says.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/53°49'35.7%22N+1°34'32.0%22W/@53.826571,-1.575546,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m4!3m3!8m2!3d53.826571!4d-1.575546?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTAwNy4xIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

Streetview

https://tinyurl.com/a9w2fnw8

So long as repeaters meet the requirements there does not need to be one specifically before the camera van. 
Title: Re: NOIP 24 in 20 zone
Post by: gm1985 on October 11, 2024, 09:07:23 am
If I was to challenge the fine and went to court, would the most likely outcome if I lost 25%-75% of my weekly wage.
Title: Re: NOIP 24 in 20 zone
Post by: NewJudge on October 10, 2024, 05:35:13 pm
Quote
"...you'd need to know what signs were in place and the distance between them on the date of the offence in order to even start to run that as a defence.

By which time the out-of-court disposals will be off the table and you will be gambling a possible acquittal against something in the order of £1,000 by way of a fine, surcharge and costs. A course (the most likely outcome) or a fixed penalty will come in at £100. 

Also bear in mind there are differences in the guidance between 20mph limits and 20mph zones. Finally, there is no specific requirement to provide repeater signs, only recommendations. It is for the traffic authority to determine how many are required and where they are placed. If you defend the charge on the basis of inadequate signage, the court will be asked to consider whether the limit was "adequately conveyed." Can you confidently argue that it was not?
Title: Re: NOIP 24 in 20 zone
Post by: gm1985 on October 10, 2024, 04:27:05 pm
The street view I’m looking at was June 2024, but I will go in person and check
Title: Re: NOIP 24 in 20 zone
Post by: Rallyman72 on October 10, 2024, 04:22:22 pm
Google Streetview is dated 2022, as such it is prior to the date of the offence by quite a while and cannot be relied upon, you'd need to know what signs were in place and the distance between them on the date of the offence in order to even start to run that as a defence. Additionally the repeaters do not have to be on every lamppost but at least once every 200yds (183m according to TSRGD guidance which is something like every 6th or 7th lamppost).
Title: Re: NOIP 24 in 20 zone
Post by: gm1985 on October 10, 2024, 03:01:23 pm
Having looked at google maps, the repeater 20mph sign on the lamp post is missing prior to where the camera van was parked, could this help my case.
Title: Re: NOIP 24 in 20 zone
Post by: gm1985 on October 10, 2024, 02:49:01 pm
Thank you NewJudge

I suspect the TRO will be up to date but it might be worth having a look
Title: Re: NOIP 24 in 20 zone
Post by: NewJudge on October 10, 2024, 02:45:01 pm
Quote
I have also emailed the West Yorkshire Police asking for a TRO for this section of road.

It is usually the relevant local authority which issues and keeps the TRO. In this case, Leeds City Council I should think.
Title: Re: NOIP 24 in 20 zone
Post by: gm1985 on October 10, 2024, 02:15:59 pm
Thank you Logician.

I have also emailed the West Yorkshire Police asking for a TRO for this section of road.
Title: Re: NOIP 24 in 20 zone
Post by: Logician on October 10, 2024, 02:08:25 pm
I doubt very much whether any court would consider that distance too great to specify. I see no reason why you should not get the offer of another course, that will not be affected by the other offence.
Incidentally, SP30 does not refer to a 30mph limit it simply means SP30 Exceeding the statutory speed limit on a public road
Title: Re: NOIP 24 in 20 zone
Post by: gm1985 on October 10, 2024, 01:55:09 pm
This is the area in question: https://www.google.com/maps/place/53°49'35.7%22N+1°34'32.0%22W/@53.826571,-1.575546,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m4!3m3!8m2!3d53.826571!4d-1.575546?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTAwNy4xIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
Title: NOIP 24 in 20 zone
Post by: gm1985 on October 10, 2024, 01:52:01 pm
I have received a notice of intended prosecution for – Speeding – exceed 20 mph – Local Order – manned equipment at 15:34 on 04/10/2024
At MOOR ROAD, HEADINGLEY, between Weetwood Lane and B6157 Shaw Lane, Leeds

The speed of the vehicle on this occasion was recorded at 24 mph (not recorded for red light offences)

For variable speed limit offences only, the speed limit at the time was mph.


Extra information:

The section of road in question was 0.4 miles, is this a too large an area, do they need to be more specific?

I did a Speed Awareness Course more than 3 years ago

Conditional offer of fixed penalty notice received 16/11/22 which was accepted and paid on 23/12/22 – this was an SP30 fine – 37 in a 30 area.

Please can you advise on the best course of action and am I likely to receive another speed awareness course.

Thank you in advance.