Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: M456 on October 10, 2024, 11:21:13 am
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You've redacted the vehicle reg. Please follow the instructions in the READ THIS FIRST - **BEFORE POSTING YOUR CASE!** (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/) sticky post at the top of the forum.
I don't believe TFL could serve a new PCN on the lease company without first serving a Notice of Acceptance (of representation) on you.
If TFL ever do choose to issue a Notice of Rejection then you could appeal to the Adjudicator where you would almost certainly win as it's now over six months since you submitted your representation. That's an unreasonable delay and TFL have a duty to act fairly.
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Hi all,
Is there anything I can do at this stage to close the matter so the PCN is still on hold?
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Hi all,
Is there anything I can do at this stage to close the matter so the PCN is still on hold?
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Hi all,
I recently checked the TfL website regarding the PCN, and it appears that the £80 charge is still outstanding. The most recent update listed is:
22 November 2024 – On Hold: SUS26 - Representation Received
N/A
Is there anything I can do at this stage to close the matter?
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Dear Sir,
I am afraid you misunderstand the law in this matter.
The 'owner' is presumed to be the registered keeper which is *******.
They may, subject to conditions, seek to relieve themselves of liability by providing the enforcement authority with prescribed documents. You would then have the choice as to whether to accept those representations or not and, if so, whether to issue a new PCN to the named person who you would hold to be the owner.
You may not, as a matter of law, presume to make the owner's choice on their behalf as to whether to make representations or not. Therefore, contrary to your request for evidence from me, the opposite applies i.e. as I am not the owner of first resort you must prove that you have the power to treat me as the owner of second resort by providing copies of their PCN and representations and your Notice of Acceptance. As I have established with the owner that they did not receive a PCN, I fear you would have a problem in this regard as you may no longer issue a PCN to the owner because you are time barred i.e. beyond the 28-day period permitted for a contravention occurring on 27 Sept.
But please send me all the evidence you have if you wish to pursue this matter.
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Does anyone else have a view on this?
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I don't know if authorities are allowed to keep hire agreements on record and not start afresh with each contravention. I would have thought not as it assumes ownership is still the same.
Someone else will know.
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Hi All,
The grounds used for representation were 'not the owner of the vehicle at the time....'
TFL have now responding requesting evidence to prove the hire agreement was terminated before the date of the contravention. Seemingly relying on previous documents.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bmGZVWhDjyLIoNQgMUWkTQtsNNHxFG6J/view?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bmGZVWhDjyLIoNQgMUWkTQtsNNHxFG6J/view?usp=sharing)
What should the next step of action be? The boxed ticked was not being the owner, which the company never has been.
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TFL still only sends videos on DVD, which is a pain.
This junction is near me and you won't get out of the contravention as it's clearly signed no left and no right.
A procedural mishap in issuing the PCN may be the only avenue.
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There isn't a video on the TFL website, just three images. One showing the vehicle at the junction, the other with it having turned left and one with a close up of the registration
Pic 1: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1CSifwgkOReoKmanl18J1wDTdG5aKAD7W/view?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1CSifwgkOReoKmanl18J1wDTdG5aKAD7W/view?usp=sharing)
Pic 2: https://drive.google.com/file/d/19iogdwvR1oKwJYBNKxam93FfG_C0MMsB/view?usp=sharing
The location on Google is: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5460982,-0.0759859,3a,75y,37.27h,73.97t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sSTDvsV9P_DeH9OaO8prVKA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D16.028676135176283%26panoid%3DSTDvsV9P_DeH9OaO8prVKA%26yaw%3D37.26971950641366!7i16384!8i8192?coh=205410&entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTAwOS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
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Of course, to avoid the lease company admin fee, you could just proceed from receipt of the PCN as a normal recipient would.
As for grounds to appeal, you need to tell us much more. The video is the sole evidence of the contravention so we need to see it. You can either download it yourself and post it here, or give us the PCN Number and car reg for us to look at it ourselves.
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The leasing company has not received the PCN. I will confirm that we are not the registered owners of the vehicle.
Is it possible for the PCN to be reissued to the leasing company? As I know that once they receive it, they will charge us an administration fee when transferring liability.
Aside from the liability aspect, are there any grounds on which we could appeal the PCN?
Thank you
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Presumably you have contacted the lease company to find out whether they have received a PCN ?
The obvious representation is to say that the firm are not, and never were the owner of the vehicle. That should kick it into touch for a bit.
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I can't see how they can do this as the car could have been sold, reallocated etc.
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Hi All,
Do I have any grounds to appeal this PCN?
The vehicle, which made a prohibited turn, is a company lease. TFL issued the PCN directly to the company without contacting the lease provider. I believe TFL has relied on documents they received from the lease provider over a year ago.
PCN: https://drive.google.com/file/d/10K7GwLFlsJdJ45rKVdRFGRMRdblY1eIM/view?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/10K7GwLFlsJdJ45rKVdRFGRMRdblY1eIM/view?usp=sharing)