Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Private parking tickets => Topic started by: alma on October 10, 2024, 07:22:23 am
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thank you all.
PCN cancelled.
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You can try and appeal and see what they say. Use the following as your appeal. No need to embellish or remove anything from it:
I am the keeper of the vehicle and I dispute your 'parking charge'. I deny any liability or contractual agreement and I will be making a complaint about your predatory conduct to your client landowner.
As your Notice to Keeper (NtK) does not fully comply with ALL the requirements of PoFA 2012, you are unable to hold the keeper of the vehicle liable for the charge. Partial or even substantial compliance is not sufficient. There will be no admission as to who was driving and no inference or assumptions can be drawn. Smart Parking has relied on contract law allegations of breach against the driver only.
The registered keeper cannot be presumed or inferred to have been the driver, nor pursued under some twisted interpretation of the law of agency. Your NtK can only hold the driver liable. Smart Parking have no hope at POPLA, so you are urged to save us both a complete waste of time and cancel the PCN.
thank you,that is very kind.
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You can try and appeal and see what they say. Use the following as your appeal. No need to embellish or remove anything from it:
I am the keeper of the vehicle and I dispute your 'parking charge'. I deny any liability or contractual agreement and I will be making a complaint about your predatory conduct to your client landowner.
As your Notice to Keeper (NtK) does not fully comply with ALL the requirements of PoFA 2012, you are unable to hold the keeper of the vehicle liable for the charge. Partial or even substantial compliance is not sufficient. There will be no admission as to who was driving and no inference or assumptions can be drawn. Smart Parking has relied on contract law allegations of breach against the driver only.
The registered keeper cannot be presumed or inferred to have been the driver, nor pursued under some twisted interpretation of the law of agency. Your NtK can only hold the driver liable. Smart Parking have no hope at POPLA, so you are urged to save us both a complete waste of time and cancel the PCN.
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So, which bit of this in their response to you makes you think they did not take your request as an appeal?
Thank you for your Appeal/Enquiry. Please be advised your Appeal/Enquiry will be reviewed and responded to within 28 days.
Whilst you claim it was an "enquiry", they seem to lump an appeal and an enquiry together.
Have 28 days passed since you made your "enquiry"? If not, why did you think that appealing before a response would serve any purpose?
In my mind it was an enquiry.
When i asked for footage would it be regarded an appeal?
If so, I want to rectify it and appeal.
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So, which bit of this in their response to you makes you think they did not take your request as an appeal?
Thank you for your Appeal/Enquiry. Please be advised your Appeal/Enquiry will be reviewed and responded to within 28 days.
Whilst you claim it was an "enquiry", they seem to lump an appeal and an enquiry together.
Have 28 days passed since you made your "enquiry"? If not, why did you think that appealing before a response would serve any purpose?
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By appeal I mean initial appeal to Smart Parking itself.
So, what did you mean when you posted this?:
Unortuantely I have acepted that it was me, thedriver.
emails:
from me:
I have received a "Parking Charge Notice" Ref: 3193920.
I would like to obtain footage of the claimed events.
I had a disabled person and 2 elderly in my car, who were out of the car to get rest ,after a long trip from London.
The rest for them was needed while I inquired directions from, I suppose, a dry cleaner/laundrette.
I moved my car to a parking space in order not to block your narrow driveway for other cars, while walking into the dry cleaner for an assistance with the orientation to the place.
Please provide me with the video record and thank you for your help.
from them:
Local Parking Security via smartparkingltd.onmicrosoft.com
Mon, Oct 7, 6:07 AM (3 days ago)
to me
Thank you for your Appeal/Enquiry. Please be advised your Appeal/Enquiry will be reviewed and responded to within 28 days. Please note if you are appealing against a Parking Charge Notice which has already been passed onto Debt Recovery Plus/Gladstones Solicitors, you will need to contact them directly. Kind Regards, Local Parking Security Ltd Local Parking Security Ltd • PO Box 6321 • Warwick • Warwickshire • CV34 9QB • - www.localparkingsecurity.co.uk http://www.localparkingsecurity.co.uk •
Confused, I am.
I asked for footage.
sorry for confusing you.
Since I did not mention that I have appealed but that i asked for footage I hoped it was clear that i did not appeal.
Could you advice on what basis i could appeal .I'll do it (bearing in my mind my grammar).
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By appeal I mean initial appeal to Smart Parking itself.
So, what did you mean when you posted this?:
Unortuantely I have acepted that it was me, thedriver.
emails:
from me:
I have received a "Parking Charge Notice" Ref: 3193920.
I would like to obtain footage of the claimed events.
I had a disabled person and 2 elderly in my car, who were out of the car to get rest ,after a long trip from London.
The rest for them was needed while I inquired directions from, I suppose, a dry cleaner/laundrette.
I moved my car to a parking space in order not to block your narrow driveway for other cars, while walking into the dry cleaner for an assistance with the orientation to the place.
Please provide me with the video record and thank you for your help.
from them:
Local Parking Security via smartparkingltd.onmicrosoft.com
Mon, Oct 7, 6:07 AM (3 days ago)
to me
Thank you for your Appeal/Enquiry. Please be advised your Appeal/Enquiry will be reviewed and responded to within 28 days. Please note if you are appealing against a Parking Charge Notice which has already been passed onto Debt Recovery Plus/Gladstones Solicitors, you will need to contact them directly. Kind Regards, Local Parking Security Ltd Local Parking Security Ltd • PO Box 6321 • Warwick • Warwickshire • CV34 9QB • 💻- www.localparkingsecurity.co.uk http://www.localparkingsecurity.co.uk •
Confused, I am.
I asked for footage.
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By appeal I mean initial appeal to Smart Parking itself.
So, what did you mean when you posted this?:
Unortuantely I have acepted that it was me, thedriver.
emails:
from me:
I have received a "Parking Charge Notice" Ref: 3193920.
I would like to obtain footage of the claimed events.
I had a disabled person and 2 elderly in my car, who were out of the car to get rest ,after a long trip from London.
The rest for them was needed while I inquired directions from, I suppose, a dry cleaner/laundrette.
I moved my car to a parking space in order not to block your narrow driveway for other cars, while walking into the dry cleaner for an assistance with the orientation to the place.
Please provide me with the video record and thank you for your help.
from them:
Local Parking Security via smartparkingltd.onmicrosoft.com
Mon, Oct 7, 6:07 AM (3 days ago)
to me
Thank you for your Appeal/Enquiry. Please be advised your Appeal/Enquiry will be reviewed and responded to within 28 days. Please note if you are appealing against a Parking Charge Notice which has already been passed onto Debt Recovery Plus/Gladstones Solicitors, you will need to contact them directly. Kind Regards, Local Parking Security Ltd Local Parking Security Ltd • PO Box 6321 • Warwick • Warwickshire • CV34 9QB • 💻- www.localparkingsecurity.co.uk http://www.localparkingsecurity.co.uk •
Confused, I am.
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OK. So you've shown us the NtK and it is not PoFA compliant although it pretends to be. That is only useful if the driver has not been identified.
At this point, I'm assuming you are the registered keeper of the vehicle and the NtK is addressed to you, the keeper. If not, please clarify your relationship to this situation.
You need to understand a couple of things first... assuming you are the keeper of the vehicle and the NtK is addressed to you, then you are the "Keeper", which is a legal entity. There is another separate legal entity... the "Driver".
So, for the time being, Smart Parking have no idea who the "driver" is so they have sent out an NtK to the "keeper", who they know is you because they got your data from the DVLA because the car is registered to you, the "Keeper".
So, a person can be either the "keeper" the "driver" or "both". Smart Parking only know the identity of the "keeper". However, it is the "driver" who is liable for the alleged breach of contract with Smart. The only way they can recover the charge if they do not know the identity of the "drive", is if they fully comply with all the requirements of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA).
As their NtK is not fully compliant with PoFA, they cannot hold the "keeper" liable if they don't know the identity of the "driver". However, if the "keeper" has blabbed, inadvertently or otherwise, that they were also the "driver", then the fact that their NtK I not PoFA compliant goes out the window.
If the "keeper" has not identified the "driver" and there is no legal obligation for the "keeper" to do so, then Smart have no wriggle room and can only pursue the "driver", who, if they have not been told, they have no idea who that is. Catch-22 for Smart (not so).
So, from what we can glean from what you have told us so far and looking at what appears to be an appeal where you said (as the "keeper") "I moved my car to a parking space in order not to block your narrow driveway for other cars...", you have inadvertently admitted to also being the "driver". If you'd said "The driver moved the car to a parking space...", the drivers identity would not have been revealed.
So, when you talk about an "appeal", are you referring to the POPLA appeal? If so, what is the date on the rejection letter from the initial appeal you appear to have made and included a POPLA code?
By appeal I mean initial appeal to Smart Parking itself.
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answers to questions:
1.I parked on a bay in order not to block other cars, while i inquired directions. I wanted to read and understand parking rules on that park, asked questions about parking places closer to our destination. I did not want to park on that park.
I have mentioned parking on a bay to avoid any accusation that i intended to park there.
2. After speaking to the cleaner’s assistance we left the parking, in the car, and never returned back.
3.About the image, I had struggled to post the image of the letter initially (sorry that I stated it before time).I have attached NTK late ron.
4.Reply from car parking office was on my email asking for a footage (questions 8.11).
5.About disability parking bay: can I appeal based on that car parking not having a disability bay?
6. on 5 oct I received the NTK letter, 10 days after the alleged contravenes. So, I have couple of days to appeal, until 14 days of discount runs out.
7.Thank you for grammar lesson, I’ll try to improve.
8.I am both:keeper and driver.
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OK. So you've shown us the NtK and it is not PoFA compliant although it pretends to be. That is only useful if the driver has not been identified.
At this point, I'm assuming you are the registered keeper of the vehicle and the NtK is addressed to you, the keeper. If not, please clarify your relationship to this situation.
You need to understand a couple of things first... assuming you are the keeper of the vehicle and the NtK is addressed to you, then you are the "Keeper", which is a legal entity. There is another separate legal entity... the "Driver".
So, for the time being, Smart Parking have no idea who the "driver" is so they have sent out an NtK to the "keeper", who they know is you because they got your data from the DVLA because the car is registered to you, the "Keeper".
So, a person can be either the "keeper" the "driver" or "both". Smart Parking only know the identity of the "keeper". However, it is the "driver" who is liable for the alleged breach of contract with Smart. The only way they can recover the charge if they do not know the identity of the "drive", is if they fully comply with all the requirements of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA).
As their NtK is not fully compliant with PoFA, they cannot hold the "keeper" liable if they don't know the identity of the "driver". However, if the "keeper" has blabbed, inadvertently or otherwise, that they were also the "driver", then the fact that their NtK I not PoFA compliant goes out the window.
If the "keeper" has not identified the "driver" and there is no legal obligation for the "keeper" to do so, then Smart have no wriggle room and can only pursue the "driver", who, if they have not been told, they have no idea who that is. Catch-22 for Smart (not so).
So, from what we can glean from what you have told us so far and looking at what appears to be an appeal where you said (as the "keeper") "I moved my car to a parking space in order not to block your narrow driveway for other cars...", you have inadvertently admitted to also being the "driver". If you'd said "The driver moved the car to a parking space...", the drivers identity would not have been revealed.
So, when you talk about an "appeal", are you referring to the POPLA appeal? If so, what is the date on the rejection letter from the initial appeal you appear to have made and included a POPLA code?
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Based on what we know from your opening post, and this is purely an attempt to get a full understanding of the actual event and what the allegation that has been made against the driver or the keeper, in order to try and assist you:
Events:
1.Travelled from London to Stratford upon Avon with x2 elderly and x1 who had mild disability. (irrelevant at this time)
2.Stopped at the Smart Parking, had to park in a bay, because the drive was narrow, so I did not want to block other cars.(relevant)
3.passengers got out, to stretch legs, while I wanted to ask for directions.(irrelevant at this time)
4. Went to cleaners, that was at the car park, then with passengers drove out.(irrelevant at this time)
5.Had to wait to get out of car park because of traffic.(relevant)
6.You can see that I was at the exit at 11 min after entering the parking.(no we can't because you haven't shown us the NtK so we can't "see" anything)
7.All of it was due to not knowing the area.(irrelevant)
8.I asked for footage to show that i did not use cleaners, went in and out of the cleaners in couple of minutes.(irrelevant and any "footage" would not prove anything that has any relevance either)
9.There was not any disability bay anyway, car park was busy, and I also read the parking rules, that was inconvenient for us, as I had to return around 1 or 2 pm to pay again. Different rules after lunch. (Shocking grammar and makes no sense so no idea if relevant or not)
10.With x2 elderly, slow walkers and 1 mild disability person I could not do that.(Could not do what? "that" means nothing to us)
11.The email reply says that it would take 28 day for them to reply, but it would mean that 14 days of discount would be up.(what "email"? Do you mean your appeal? If so, then say exactly that.)
12.Received the letter on 5th Oct, has been waiting for the footage.77(What "letter". Makes no sense to anyone reading this. Has the "letter" been waiting for "the footage"? Sounds like it based on the way you've explained it)
13.I have attached images, but they are not clear. It is on google map.(you didn't attach any images (of what?))
14,So,shall I appeal now, I have couple of day of 14 days left.(You have 14 days let to do what? You have already appealed by the sound of it)
thank you
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What time was the alleged breach of contract by the driver? It will say on the NtK which you still haven't shown us.
i have posted a link to the letter at 10:42.
shall I re-post it ?
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Sorry I might appear not paying attention, probably because I know what happenend and assume others would undertand my explanation. Or probably i could not describe it clear for others.
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What time was the alleged breach of contract by the driver? It will say on the NtK which you still haven't shown us.
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I do read questions, but what i said in my 1st post: it happenend within those 11 min (the only entrance I had to that parking)and we left,after reading the display and taking directions from the cleaners assistance. As i epxlained I was not familiar with the town and needed some advice.
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no, i have not returned back, it was on the display: Saturday it had different tariff, before lunch and after lunch.
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The question was:
-I went to cleaner, it is at the car park, to ask directions.
-I did not come back, everything happenedwithin thoes 11 min.I was in that car park fro 11 min,
so when you said you had to return at 1 or 2 and pay again. what you meant was. because of that you decided not to Park??
We are trying to help but you don't appear to be reading or understanding the questions.
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It was confusing and any way because of the passengers I decided to go elswhere,after speaking with the Laundrette assitance,who advised about other places. Also, I did not see any disabeled parking.
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-I went to cleaner, it is at the car park, to ask directions.
-I did not come back, everything happenedwithin thoes 11 min.I was in that car park fro 11 min,
so when you said you had to return at 1 or 2 and pay again. what you meant was. because of that you decided not to Park??
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it i snotfor cleaners customers only, it was just a car park, I think.
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https://imgur.com/a/o8qTNUE.
it's poor image. but could not find better one.
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looks like a pay to park car park for the cleaners (biggest dry cleaners I've ever seen)
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In June this year, they certainly didn't have any compliant signage. Which part of the car park did you park in? The bit right in front of the cleaners or the bit to the left?
(https://i.imgur.com/zhXPIqx.jpeg) (https://www.google.com/maps/@52.1938403,-1.7062513,3a,75y,216.1h,83.05t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1slW49v8Z1MSC5RSMvRf4S9A!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DlW49v8Z1MSC5RSMvRf4S9A%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D72.703926%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?coh=205409&entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTAwNy4xIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D)
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I only mentioned "little hope" at POPLA. No one pays Smart Parking. When you receive the appeal rejection, we will help putting a suitable POPLA appeal together and throw the kitchen sink at them and see if they can rebut all the points.
If you can get ay pictures of the signs at the location, that would help.
Haver you tried contacting the "cleaners" to see if they can get the PCN cancelled?
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so was this a car parking area for the dry cleaner/launderette??
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so, there is a little hope that it would be cancelled.
It was an honest mistake, asked for directions, with the elderly being slow it has taken time to drive out of the car park.
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you have little hope at POPLA
Have they sorted out their landowner contract issues?
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Their NtK contains a feeble attempt to comply with PoFA but fails miserably. Unfortunately, you threw away the "no keeper liability" defence away when you revealed the identity of the driver... you.
Fortunately, you have the "consideration period" defence as time on site is not time parked plus the usual signage issues and no contract formed etc. As it is Smart, it also highly unlikely that they have a valid contract with the landowner.
Never mind, nobody pays (not so) Smart Parking. Your appeal will be rejected by Smart and you have little hope at POPLA. I suspect that this will go all the way to a court claim where this will be defeated, once and for all.
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Unortuantely I have acepted that it was me, thedriver.
emails:
from me:
I have received a "Parking Charge Notice" Ref: 3193920.
I would like to obtain footage of the claimed events.
I had a disabled person and 2 elderly in my car, who were out of the car to get rest ,after a long trip from London.
The rest for them was needed while I inquired directions from, I suppose, a dry cleaner/laundrette.
I moved my car to a parking space in order not to block your narrow driveway for other cars, while walking into the dry cleaner for an assistance with the orientation to the place.
Please provide me with the video record and thank you for your help.
from them:
Local Parking Security via smartparkingltd.onmicrosoft.com
Mon, Oct 7, 6:07 AM (3 days ago)
to me
Thank you for your Appeal/Enquiry. Please be advised your Appeal/Enquiry will be reviewed and responded to within 28 days. Please note if you are appealing against a Parking Charge Notice which has already been passed onto Debt Recovery Plus/Gladstones Solicitors, you will need to contact them directly. Kind Regards, Local Parking Security Ltd Local Parking Security Ltd • PO Box 6321 • Warwick • Warwickshire • CV34 9QB • 💻- www.localparkingsecurity.co.uk http://www.localparkingsecurity.co.uk •
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I think i have managed to share a link to imgur.
thank you and sorry for being slow. works intranet is blocking that site.
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https://imgur.com/a/5jPtgRN
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Please bare in mind not to use phrases such as "I" "We" "He" etc.
Use the "the driver" did this or that, some PPC`s read these forums and the driver ID should not be indicated.
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I struggle to attach, it keeps saying the upload folderis full.I cropped it etc,still did not work
Have you read the thread b789 directed you to? It includes instructions on adding images.
As you've not provided any documents, please have a read of this thread and then show us the NtK, only redacting your personal details, the PCN number and the vehicle VRM. Leave ALL dates and times showing.
READ THIS FIRST - Private Parking Charges Forum guide (https://www.ftla.uk/private-parking-tickets/read-this-first-private-parking-charges-forum-guide/)
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Morning
thank you all for the reply.
-I went to cleaner, it is at the car park, to ask directions.
-I did not come back, everything happenedwithin thoes 11 min.I was in that car park fro 11 min, it has tken that much time because of the things with passengers,as I epxlianed in the previous messsage.
thank you
I struggle to attach, it keeps saying the upload folderis full.I cropped it etc,still did not work
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stopped at "smart parking"
that is the parking operator. where EXACTLY was the car park?
why did you stop there??
went to "cleaners" ???
do you mean car wash? why?
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In addition to the above, as you have communicated with the parking company it would also be useful to see copies of exactly what you sent them.
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Not absolutely clear but from what I can gather, you were in the car park for 11 minutes but returned again some time later but you then say you had to return again around 1pm-2pm and paid again.
I'm sorry, but your timeline makes absolutely no sense. As the back-story is not really relevant at this point, all we need to see is the original Notice to Keeper (NtK) you received from Smart Parking. If you have already appealed, and it sounds as though you have, what exactly you put in your appeal.
Hopefully, you didn't give away the identity of who was driving. Smart Parking are one of the easiest to beat, as long as the drivers identity is not revealed.
As you've not provided any documents, please have a read of this thread and then show us the NtK, only redacting your personal details, the PCN number and the vehicle VRM. Leave ALL dates and times showing.
READ THIS FIRST - Private Parking Charges Forum guide (https://www.ftla.uk/private-parking-tickets/read-this-first-private-parking-charges-forum-guide/)
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Events:
1.Travelled from London to Stratford upon Avon with x2 elderly and x1 who had mild disability.
2.Stopped at the Smart Parking, had to park in a bay, because the drive was narrow, so I did not want to block other cars.
3.passengers got out, to stretch legs, while I wanted to ask for directions.
4. Went to cleaners, that was at the car park, then with passengers drove out.
5.Had to wait to get out of car park because of traffic.
6.You can see that I was at the exit at 11 min after entering the parking.
7.All of it was due to not knowing the area.
8.I asked for footage to show that i did not use cleaners, went in and out of the cleaners in couple of minutes.
9.There was not any disability bay anyway, car park was busy, and I also read the parking rules, that was inconvenient for us, as I had to return around 1 or 2 pm to pay again. Different rules after lunch.
10.With x2 elderly, slow walkers and 1 mild disability person I could not do that.
11.The email reply says that it would take 28 day for them to reply, but it would mean that 14 days of discount would be up.
12.Received the letter on 5th Oct, has been waiting for the footage.77
13.I have attached images, but they are not clear. It is on google map.
14,So,shall I appeal now, I have couple of day of 14 days left.
thank you