Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Shaysaf on October 09, 2024, 06:20:33 pm
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Overthinking.
Letter says car was in bay when sign went up on 5th. PCN 9th so not long before and well within being reasonably away.
Letter says give us evidence. They want to tick a box.
OP - something about father's health would fit the bill but you'd probably win this at the tribunal given the short timescale.
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I am trying to elicit info which so far has remained unsaid.
IMO, your defence goes to mitigation so make this as strong as possible.
'Urgent and unforeseen' is vague, sorry.
To illustrate my point, in your reps you said: This was beyond my control, and I was unable to move my vehicle during this time.
You did not state in your reps that no-one else could move the car, simply that you couldn't.
So, others are in the house but not licensed to drive or no-one in the house?
You have still not said at what time you returned. If, say, you knew the suspension came into effect and tried to return to move it in time but were prevented through circumstances beyond your control (it is self-evident that you weren't driving, therefore public transport comes into play) then this is a defence- I've succeeded at tribunal on this point when due to train cancellations I wasn't able to move my car out of contravention.
Hence why your details are important.
And if this isn't being critical of the council, then what is?
Improper Placement of Suspension Sign: It is my understanding that the suspension notice was only placed on the tree. As per regulations, the suspension sign should also be displayed on nearby parking signs to ensure visibility to all drivers. The lack of proper signage meant I was not aware of the bay suspension.
4. Inadequate Communication: I would also like to bring to your attention that, to properly inform residents of the suspension, leaflets should not only be placed under windscreen wipers but also dropped at nearby houses. This ensures that residents are fully aware of the suspension, even when they are not near their vehicle. In this case, I did not receive any such notice at my residence, further contributing to my unawareness of the situation.
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When did you get back to your home?
Unforeseen Circumstances: At the time the PCN was issued, I was away due to unforeseen and urgent personal circumstances as my father is severely unwell. This was beyond my control, and I was unable to move my vehicle during this time.
2. No Prior Suspension Notice: When I parked my car, there was no visible suspension notice on the bay. Upon my return, I found a leaflet placed on my car, along with the PCN. This indicates that the suspension notice was issued after I had parked.
unforeseen and urgent personal circumstances as my father is severely unwell. This was beyond my control, and I was unable to move my vehicle during this time.
Devil's advocate - then why didn't somebody else in your house move the car?
As regards placing leaflets, what would you think was fair: a leaflet for everyone in the street? If not, how far either side and do you actually live within this area? Placing on cars means they capture everyone who actually parked there over a 72-hour period.
Whether 72 hours or 144, you still wouldn't have received a leaflet, you weren't at home.
IMO, if you intend to carry on then I think you'll need to develop your circumstances - and therefore present as strong a case for mitigation(which is personal) before you launch into criticising the council.
But we know so few details e.g. what time you returned, who else could have moved the car, where you live relative to the suspended area etc.
No body else moved the car because no one else drives and no one else was home . I returned on 9th October ie. the day they said the suspension started.
To further add to this, there is no possible way for anyone to move the car when they are away. I am not looking to criticise the council here , I am simply stating the fact that no one could have moved the car . I believe someone has added a link in this thread where you can see how various councils seem to scam people who are away and simply cannot move the car . I would like to know what steps I could follow and where do I stand with this rather then list out everything I could/ could not have done seeing I am not at that stage anymore
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When did you get back to your home?
Unforeseen Circumstances: At the time the PCN was issued, I was away due to unforeseen and urgent personal circumstances as my father is severely unwell. This was beyond my control, and I was unable to move my vehicle during this time.
2. No Prior Suspension Notice: When I parked my car, there was no visible suspension notice on the bay. Upon my return, I found a leaflet placed on my car, along with the PCN. This indicates that the suspension notice was issued after I had parked.
unforeseen and urgent personal circumstances as my father is severely unwell. This was beyond my control, and I was unable to move my vehicle during this time.
Devil's advocate - then why didn't somebody else in your house move the car?
As regards placing leaflets, what would you think was fair: a leaflet for everyone in the street? If not, how far either side and do you actually live within this area? Placing on cars means they capture everyone who actually parked there over a 72-hour period.
Whether 72 hours or 144, you still wouldn't have received a leaflet, you weren't at home.
IMO, if you intend to carry on then I think you'll need to develop your circumstances - and therefore present as strong a case for mitigation(which is personal) before you launch into criticising the council.
But we know so few details e.g. what time you returned, who else could have moved the car, where you live relative to the suspended area etc.
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Here was my response to the council
"I am writing to formally challenge PCN WA91121597, issued on 09/10/24. I respectfully request that you consider cancelling this penalty notice based on the following grounds:
1. Unforeseen Circumstances: At the time the PCN was issued, I was away due to unforeseen and urgent personal circumstances as my father is severely unwell. This was beyond my control, and I was unable to move my vehicle during this time.
2. No Prior Suspension Notice: When I parked my car, there was no visible suspension notice on the bay. Upon my return, I found a leaflet placed on my car, along with the PCN. This indicates that the suspension notice was issued after I had parked.
3. Improper Placement of Suspension Sign: It is my understanding that the suspension notice was only placed on the tree. As per regulations, the suspension sign should also be displayed on nearby parking signs to ensure visibility to all drivers. The lack of proper signage meant I was not aware of the bay suspension.
4. Inadequate Communication: I would also like to bring to your attention that, to properly inform residents of the suspension, leaflets should not only be placed under windscreen wipers but also dropped at nearby houses. This ensures that residents are fully aware of the suspension, even when they are not near their vehicle. In this case, I did not receive any such notice at my residence, further contributing to my unawareness of the situation.
5. Request for Review of Records: I kindly request that you review your records to determine when the suspension notice was installed and confirm whether vehicles, including mine, were already parked in the bay when the notice was posted.
In light of these circumstances, I believe the issuance of this PCN was unjust, and I respectfully request that it be cancelled.
Thank you for your time and consideration. I look forward to your favourable response."
I replied to the response on Thursday 10th October 2024 at 7:08pm
Their response is dated the 5th of December 2024 at 12:14pm
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At what time did you return and find the PCN?
Pl post a copy of your challenge, not a summary.
Their response is dated ??
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My challenge was that I was away due to some family relate circumstances and there was no way possible for me to move the car when this suspension was placed . The day I returned , I found the PCN on the car.
I don't fully understand what they need in terms of evidence , would that be my travel plans or ?
Thanks
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You're knocking at an open door at formal stage provided you can supply evidence.
But what was your challenge?
(https://i.imgur.com/W0fcQVz.jpeg)
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The next step in the enforcement process if no payment is received by the council, is they serve a Notice to Owner to the keeper of the vehicle as recorded on the V5C Registration Certificate for the car. Are you the keeper and hold the V5C, and is the address correct in all detail, and the same as when the contravention allegedly occurred ?
You can only register an appeal at London Tribunals after they have rejected formal representations against a Notice to Owner.
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I have just received councils response where they have not even read all the grounds I established specifically ignoring to acknowledge that I was away so there is no way I could have moved the car.
I would like to know where do I stand with this and what should be my next steps? Should it be tribunal or ?
https://imgur.com/a/vSVy5eH
https://imgur.com/a/bFUTrMB
Thanks
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Is there any precedent of Wandsworth's 72 hour notice deemed unreasonable?
Are there explicit laws on what a minimum reasonable notice should be, or is it all left to the discretion of the adjudicator?
There is no law. An authority has a duty to act fairly concerning vehicles in a bay when it puts up signage and they may relocate resident cars without penalty.
The tribunal can't use discretion but can determine if a contravention is fair on the basis of whether it is reasonable to penalise someone who could not have known.
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Is there any precedent of Wandsworth's 72 hour notice deemed unreasonable?
Are there explicit laws on what a minimum reasonable notice should be, or is it all left to the discretion of the adjudicator?
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...A quick search shows the minimum required notice there is 72 hours https://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/parking/parking-bays/parking-bay-suspensions/how-we-suspend-parking-bays/
So, if they can prove they respected that, I fear there is nothing you can do.
Not true. Councils can't just pick any arbitrary time time limit they feel like and make it stick just because it's on their website. If councils could do this, you an bet a few of them would set a 5 minute limit and cash in on every suspension!
Once an adjudicator sees this case, they will decide if the council are being reasonable or not. I think they would be highly unlikely to rule that it's reasonable to expect car drivers to return to their vehicles every 71 hours just in case the council has followed a policy almost nobody will have read, because it means nobody in the borough could safely go on a week's holiday!
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You said this was in Wandsworth. A quick search shows the minimum required notice there is 72 hours https://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/parking/parking-bays/parking-bay-suspensions/how-we-suspend-parking-bays/
So, if they can prove they respected that, I fear there is nothing you can do.
Each case turns on its facts. While there is a duty to keep a look out for suspensions you can hardly do so if on holiday or in this case called away urgently. If you were parked legally 72 hours is not long enough to accommodate reasonable situations.
See this where there is a list of cases:
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/wandsworth-code-21-parked-in-suspended-bay-parking-bay-on-buttermere-drive-sw15/
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I had a similar PCN cancelled because there was no sign when I left the car, so I asked the council when they put the sign up, they recognised they hadn't provided the required notice, and cancelled the PCN. I had made a post on pepipoo, which is now down, so I can't retrieve the details. I don't remember what the minimum notice was.
You said this was in Wandsworth. A quick search shows the minimum required notice there is 72 hours https://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/parking/parking-bays/parking-bay-suspensions/how-we-suspend-parking-bays/
So, if they can prove they respected that, I fear there is nothing you can do.
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The suspension sign is on a tree right by your car and the space outside nos 15-17 so OK although we'd also expect a sign on a nearby parking sign.
I would challenge saying you parked in the bay on X October before leaving for urgent reason (say what and where) and returning on x October and that no suspension was in evidence and would they check their records on cars parked there before the sign was put up and kindly cancel the PCN.
(https://i.ibb.co/Y0yhLgL/wand3.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/1MtnYD8/wand2.jpg)
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I found the leaflet today under the wind screen wiper . It can be seen in the council PCN pics as well .
The vehicle VRM is : FV15YZA
I was away due to my father being severely unwell as no was there to look after him .
It was a short stay and I will have to go back again soon as a surgery is planned.
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You don't have to say what but do you have a good reason for being away - but 2-9 Oct is only a week and well within a holiday time and if the car was in the bay when they put up the advance suspension notice they should cancel this.
It's also fortunate you came back today.
What is the car VRM - no need to hide this or post the council's pics yourself.
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When did you find the leaflet under the windscreen wiper ?
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Yes , My car was indeed parked legally when the suspension started . I departed from the address on 2nd october 2024 and I checked , there was no suspension or any leaflet . Only think I found is a leaflet under the windscreen wiper. I would expect the council to drop the leaflet in nearby houses so it would raise more awareness .
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If (a big 'if'), they're doing their job correctly, they will have recorded the date and time the suspension sign was erected, and also a list of all cars parked when the suspension commenced. Your car was legally parked at the time the suspension started.
When did you depart from your address ? Did you check the car just before you left ?
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I had to leave unexpectedly due to unforeseen family circumstances. Upon my return today I found a penalty charge notice on my car, which was parked on the street where I live. It was surprising because I have a permit to park there.
After looking into it, I realized that certain parking spots on the street had been temporarily suspended, but I wasn’t aware of this at all. I’m left with this PCN, and I feel I had no way of knowing the restrictions had changed while I was gone. I've also attached a copy of the PCN and photos showing where the signs were posted.
https://imgur.com/a/JpdfaFu (https://imgur.com/a/JpdfaFu)
https://imgur.com/a/6SViLtn (https://imgur.com/a/6SViLtn)
https://imgur.com/a/X1mkA0b (https://imgur.com/a/X1mkA0b)
https://imgur.com/a/28S2SW4 (https://imgur.com/a/28S2SW4)https://imgur.com/a/YDkbGKn (https://imgur.com/a/YDkbGKn)
https://maps.app.goo.gl/BUkohUehBHDHrADq8 (https://maps.app.goo.gl/BUkohUehBHDHrADq8)