Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Sheppy100 on October 08, 2024, 09:29:47 pm
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As I mentioned earlier, his mother can make a statutory declaration—just to clarify, I didn’t mean the PE2 variety.
For what purpose?
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As I mentioned earlier, his mother can make a statutory declaration—just to clarify, I didn’t mean the PE2 variety.
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@Pressman, it's not his mother who's being pursued, it's the OP who remains
the registered keeper of CX10YYG despite, apparently, the vehicle having been permanently exported, re-registered and then sold.
Their mother's in the frame because 'The letter arrived at my mothers address in Bournemouth where our driving licenses our registered.'
The OP's priority must surely be to cut these umbilical cords by sorting out DVLA, not trying to get their mother sitting outside a legitimate enforcement process.
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Sometimes a simple phone call is the easy answer.
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It's important to note that your current residence in France places you outside the jurisdiction for enforcing traffic penalties.
CDER Group Limited likely obtained your address through investigative methods. They are known to track down debtors when creditors claim they have relocated.
In this context, Highways England may have made a speculative application for a warrant based on the address CDER identifies as your last known residence.
To alleviate her concerns about unwelcome visitors, your mother can make a statutory declaration to remove her address from the enforcement process.
She must refrain from engaging with unexpected callers, particularly those appearing overly authoritative or resembling law enforcement.
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it would appear that the person processing the photo just took a best guess…
An absolute disgrace and they should be hanging their heads is shame. Best guess, indeed ! Just serve a PCN and see what happens !! Clearly the Horizon affair is just the tip of the iceberg.
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A helpful chap at Dart has looked at the photo… the photo is apparently of poor quality and the type of car or colour is not clear let alone the no. Plate, it would appear that the person processing the photo just took a best guess… the chap we spoke to spoke to his manager and they’re going to cancel the pcn… he found it very odd that DVLA had no PCN marker when he was looking at a PCN on his screen.
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OP, [crossed with the previous post] I agree with what's being discussed but this doesn't change the fact that DART's cameras claim to have clocked CX10YYG using the crossing and that this was attached to a car of the same make and model and you remain the registered keeper.
Start with DART's evidence and take up whatever help if offered.
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Hi Incandescent,
No it’s not ALL we did we declared as sorn while we was awaiting for the new French registration to come through…. Write or wrong that’s not really the point… the vehicle was in France on the date of contravention.. that’s the point. However we have a made some progress in the last hour… will update later
Yes, I accept that, but if DVLA had your details still on their database as SORN in the UK, then when an on-line message came in from DART, they obviously have responded to it with the details, hence the pot mess you're now in, which you must exit from. Your case may have exposed a defect in the system, so keep us informed so others may benefit.
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Hi Incandescent,
No it’s not ALL we did we declared as sorn while we was awaiting for the new French registration to come through…. Write or wrong that’s not really the point… the vehicle was in France on the date of contravention.. that’s the point. However we have a made some progress in the last hour… will update later
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Thanks Stamford man but I think we’ve made some progress…
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I wouldn't be paying bailiffs.
If you get stuck I'm happy call Dart on your authority but you'll need to message me with details.
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Airbed… sorry should have been “sorned” auto correct 🙄
So all that you did when you arrived in France was declare SORN. And that is confirmed by the DVLA data.
This means that the car record is still live on their data base, and when DART requested name and address details from the DVLA they supplied the information. Looking at the V5C for my car, there is Section 5 "Permanently exporting this vehicle for more than 12 months". So did you fill this section in and send it off to the DVLA ?
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The v5 was taken off of us by the préfecture they said they would notify DVLA uk… the vehicle had never been over the dart crossing as far as I’m aware… yes it is on French plates since 2017
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VRM gives a silver Vauxhall - status SORN. MOT expired 12 Jan 2018. Last logbook issued 15 August 2017 - that address will be where they initially sent a PCN.
But no such PCN on Dart system - in fact no outstanding PCNs. Suggest you call Dart as this looks like a plate misread or maybe clone but no PCN outstanding is odd unless their system closes them when moved to enforcement.
I found out very recently the Dart charge and Dart PCNs are run by different companies. I recently changed car and added it to my online account the following day. I phoned Dart charge to make sure there wasn't any outstanding charges on that car, the chap assured me there wasn't and nothing for the previous day's journey. A week later I get a PCN for that day. It turned out that a crossing made prior to being on the account has to be paid for separately. The two don't talk to each other. Both lots were very helpful on the phone and the penalty charge was dropped on payment of the norml crossing charge. You can't get fairer than that. This info posted for future reference. :)
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That may be the case, they can't take what isn't there. The Dart Charge people are usually quick at answering, the cost of an international phone call will be less stressful than dealing with bailiffs from afar. You should have notified DVLA that the car was permanently exported. There is a slip on the V5 for that. Presumably the car now has a French registration? If so, how come the Dart cameras read a UK plate on your car? Has it ever been on the Dartford crossing?
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the enforcement agents, in theory can’t take any possessions from my mums as we do not have anything of ours there.
And they'll take your mum's word for this?
I think we’ll just have to wait it out and see what happens
Really? For the sake of a few pounds of tel. calls you're prepared to potentially have her subjected to bailiff action. Oh well.
IMO, pay the bailiffs. If they'll accept the pre-£235 sum good.
This gets your mother off the hook.
Then in a slow, measured fashion you can set about finding out what's what. And after you've submitted a Subject Access Request(SAR) to DART you'll have all the documents and can submit your OOT to TEC.
Paying the bailiffs has NO effect on TEC's final decision and essentially if they accept your reasons for submitting your SD late and revoke the Order for Recovery you get your money back.
SAR - is a data protection issue, nothing to do with traffic contraventions as such. They're required to provide you with the personal info you request which in this case would be all their correspondence, including the initial PCN.
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We have emailed them, tried to phone also but it’s difficult from France and potentially very expensive as we only have French mobiles.
I think we’ll just have to wait it out and see what happens… the enforcement agents, in theory can’t take any possessions from my mums as we do not have anything of ours there.
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Dart Charge contact centre is usually very helpful - call 0300 300 0120. Among authorities that issue PCNs they are about the most benign.
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Airbed… sorry should have been “sorned” auto correct 🙄
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"airbed"
??
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We airbed the vehicle as soon as we got into France… the v5 went to the local prefecture so it could be exported into their system we have a copy of the log book (carté gris) for France…. We are trying to contact all the relevant bodies but it’s very difficult especially calling them from France
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A quick look at "Check VED" shows your vehicle status as SORN, and last V5C issued on 15th August 2017. So you should, in theory, still have that paper V5C in your possession.
I think you need to contact DART as a matter of urgency to get details of the vehicle, photos etc. At the moment, the bailiffs have only added on their £75, but if they visit, will add on £235.
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VRM gives a silver Vauxhall - status SORN. MOT expired 12 Jan 2018. Last logbook issued 15 August 2017 - that address will be where they initially sent a PCN.
But no such PCN on Dart system - in fact no outstanding PCNs. Suggest you call Dart as this looks like a plate misread or maybe clone but no PCN outstanding is odd unless their system closes them when moved to enforcement.
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The VRM on the NoE is CX10YYG - not a French plate but a SORN'd Vauxhall: https://vehicleenquiry.service.gov.uk/VehicleFound?locale=en
Others would know, but this car has not been exported, it's supposed to be sitting off the road somewhere in the UK
Driving licences aren't linked to car VRMs also how could a vehicle be registered both in the UK and France?
But OP you are correct in that your focus should be on how to prevent your mother being hassled. I fear that telling her 'not to let anyone in' won't put her at ease.
IMO, take France out of the equation and look at what remains:
The VRM is still registered with DVLA;
Therefore they will have a registered keeper;
This is you - forget selling a French-registered car in 2023, this is irrelevant. You are still on record as the RK of CX etc.. in the UK;
This VRM used the Dartford crossing..
Hence why you're being pursued...
However, you say that 'the vehicle was never registered there[your mother's house]', but this isn't the point: the car is registered to you in the UK. If all procedural notices have been sent to this address (and unanswered) then they would pursue you, initially at this address but afterwards anywhere provided by the law. You're linking your mother's with driving licence, but we don't know. They might have searched other databases to find out an address.
If you're claiming that DVLA's records are incorrect, then IMO you'll need proof.
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Picture host site,
I didn’t even know that was a thing
(https://i.postimg.cc/CBCzwDZt/IMG-2066.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/CBCzwDZt)
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Put the notice on an image hosting site. Just hide name and address.
Bailiffs make their money out of tracing people but this is an odd one.
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To be honest I assumed Dart contacted DVLA and they gave out license address details. The vehicle was never registered there so I can’t see any other way they could have got the address.
Im not too bothered about bailiffs for me, just them turning up at my mums house.
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Speak to the Dart Charge penalty notice department, they are usually quite helpful. I have a vintage vehicle which was "cloned" by an east European lorry. they used the same LLLNNN system we used until 1963.A quick check of their photos cleared the matter.
If you liv in France there's nothing bailiffs can do to collect from there. Quite how Dart Charge got your driving licence details is a mystery as there's no link between driving licence address and registered keeper addresses at the DVLA.
See the sticky at the top of the page on how to post photos.
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
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Tried to fill in an online form but it comes up with a message saying no outstanding PCNs for this vehicle.
I can’t up load letter, the file is to big, it’s a photo from my mum.
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Best if you post up the letter from the bailiffs.
This may be a mis-read of a number plate, but you really MUST persist with both the DVLA and TEC. YOu need to get proof of export from the DVLA.
However, have you contacted DART yet, as you don't mention them at all ? You need to tell them the situation. If DVLA shows the vehicle as exported, they should have a date for this, and this date should be before the contravention date. With bailiffs at your door, the only avenue to get them off your back is to submit an Out-of-Time Witness Statement. For this you need to submit Forms TE7 and TE9. The TE7 is to ask for permission to submit the WS out-of-time.
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Hi
Have received an enforcement notice from CDER Group saying we have to pay £192.50 and if it’s not paid by 06:00 am on 09/10;24 they will send enforcement agents to our property.
The contravention occurred on 23/12/23 and a warrant was issued on 24/07/24.
We live in France, in 2017 the vehicle was exported to France and has a French number plate. We sold the car in France in May 2023. The car is still in France.
At DVLA it has an export marker and no PCN’s outstanding.
The letter arrived at my mothers address in Bournemouth where our driving licenses our registered.
Called CDER they advised to call TEC (transport enforcement) in Northampton, DVLA and Dartford police, (he then back tracked and said he didn’t say to call the police) no answer from TEC OR DVLA.
Phoned CDER back and they were just rude and unhelpful a said “ I told you what to do” I said they don’t answer he said “of course they do”.
The vehicle has obviously been cloned.
I have told my mum not to let anyone in, we don’t have any possessions there anyway. But she is in her 80’s and I have a feeling any enforcement agents will try to be intimidating.
Many thanks