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Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: persistence! on August 06, 2023, 06:29:59 pm

Title: Re: Bus Lane Contravention Lancelot Road, Brent > PCN non-compliant
Post by: cp8759 on November 11, 2023, 09:45:25 am
This is a first:

The Authority seeks a further review.

The issue at the review was whether an Appellant serving a Notice under Paragraph 7(3) of the London Local Authorities Act 1996 (as amended) can only do so by lodging the Notice via the Tribunals’ portal.

One would expect the Authority to check the legislation before applying for a review. It would appear that it has not done so because it has not at any stage offered any submissions as to why the legislation requires it. Despite me pointing this out in the review decision, the Authority seeks a further review. Its reason is that it had not attended the hearing because it had not been asked to attend.

When parties receive notification that there will be a personal hearing, they decide whether to appear.
The Tribunal will not offer specific invitations.

I have already commented in my decision that the application was ill-conceived because the Authority has not identified any error on the adjudicator’s part. The application had not been dismissed summarily without a hearing simply because the Authority suggested that it would attend. I have therefore set the application down for a personal hearing, but the Authority’s case is that this is not good enough because it needed to be asked to attend. The second application is also baseless as a matter of law.
The application is refused.

I am asking the head of enforcement of the authority to confirm that its officers are adequately trained to conduct proceedings before this Tribunal.

Anthony Chan
Chief Adjudicator Environment and Traffic

Copy here (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1Hg3Xe_c_ypyZTZec6XpU-n9nSp3vIdTS).
Title: Re: Bus Lane Contravention Lancelot Road, Brent > PCN non-compliant
Post by: cp8759 on November 09, 2023, 09:20:26 am
Brilliant.  Maybe the officials will now start to read the laws and regulations they purport to enforce.
No chance, just look at the review outcome (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1dIiiVSZSpWjtVGgaBP07DnUlG-MKth5B).
Title: Re: Bus Lane Contravention Lancelot Road, Brent > PCN non-compliant
Post by: Incandescent on October 19, 2023, 09:44:17 am
Brilliant.  Maybe the officials will now start to read the laws and regulations they purport to enforce.
Title: Re: Bus Lane Contravention Lancelot Road, Brent > PCN non-compliant
Post by: cp8759 on October 19, 2023, 09:12:23 am
Outcome (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1f_grDvm09USFmJnOKIgMBtoPFbdWbHa4).
Title: Re: Bus Lane Contravention Lancelot Road, Brent > PCN non-compliant
Post by: brazilianx on October 15, 2023, 11:23:57 am
Yes, CP has provided excellent support and we are looking forward to a positive outcome this coming Wed. Will keep you posted on developments.
Title: Re: Bus Lane Contravention Lancelot Road, Brent > PCN non-compliant
Post by: Hippocrates on September 27, 2023, 07:38:08 pm
https://www.ftla.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=338.0;attach=1678

Mr A Morris is also legislationally challenged.  I assume cp is doing this one so he will be along shortly.
Title: Re: Bus Lane Contravention Lancelot Road, Brent > PCN non-compliant
Post by: cp8759 on September 27, 2023, 05:51:45 pm
The CCTV camera has been confirmed as a ZenGrab LaneWatch Mk2, which does have a certificate in place.
Title: Re: Bus Lane Contravention Lancelot Road, Brent > PCN non-compliant
Post by: brazilianx on September 19, 2023, 01:06:25 pm
Thanks

Can you clarify what you mean by

Quote
You didn't even mention an exemption!
Title: Re: Bus Lane Contravention Lancelot Road, Brent > PCN non-compliant
Post by: John U.K. on September 19, 2023, 01:03:26 pm

You didn't even mention an exemption!

As for "Brent Council is satisfied   ..... that the date of notice is the same as the Date of Service of Notice"

shows he may have considered your rep[ but has failed to understand it.
Title: Re: Bus Lane Contravention Lancelot Road, Brent > PCN non-compliant
Post by: brazilianx on September 19, 2023, 12:44:59 pm
Hello again

Picking up where we left off back in August.

As last discussed, I lodged the informal appeal and today I received a formal Notice of Rejection.

I have attached both these documents.

As per our last conversation on this PCN, I look forward to taking this to the tribunal with your assistance.

Keen to understand what grounds of appeal we will use:
https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/grounds-appeal/grounds-appeal-bus-lanes (https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/grounds-appeal/grounds-appeal-bus-lanes)

Let's win this! ;D

Thanks

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Title: Re: Bus Lane Contravention Lancelot Road, Brent > PCN non-compliant
Post by: Hippocrates on August 10, 2023, 08:26:08 pm
So, that's the spirit. cp and a few others are, indeed, rare human beings.  You are in good hands.
Title: Re: Bus Lane Contravention Lancelot Road, Brent > PCN non-compliant
Post by: brazilianx on August 10, 2023, 06:42:32 pm
Thanks everyone, on balance, it feels risky. And while I appreciate the kind offer to represent at the tribunal - I hate to say this, but I think I'm going to put an end to this now.
I'm so sure that this will win, that if we go to appeal and lose, I'll pay the other £65. Unless you've already thrown £65 down the drain?

Well no I haven't paid up - was procrastinating and now rethinking. Again, an extremely generous offer and your confidence underscores your conviction in the argument, which is encouraging.

Let me DM you
Title: Re: Bus Lane Contravention Lancelot Road, Brent > PCN non-compliant
Post by: Circle87 on August 10, 2023, 09:38:47 am
Personally, I would also take up CP's offer. Have faith.
Title: Re: Bus Lane Contravention Lancelot Road, Brent > PCN non-compliant
Post by: Hippocrates on August 10, 2023, 08:15:27 am
I would certainly accept cp's offer.  If anyone can win on this argument, he is the man to do so.
Title: Re: Bus Lane Contravention Lancelot Road, Brent > PCN non-compliant
Post by: cp8759 on August 10, 2023, 12:22:06 am
Thanks everyone, on balance it feels risky. And while I appreciate the kind offer to repesent at the tribunal - I hate to say this but I think I'm going to put an end to this now.
I'm so sure that this will win, that if we go to appeal and lose, I'll pay the other £65. Unless you've already thrown £65 down the drain?
Title: Re: Bus Lane Contravention Lancelot Road, Brent > PCN non-compliant
Post by: brazilianx on August 09, 2023, 08:44:35 pm
Thanks everyone, on balance it feels risky. And while I appreciate the kind offer to repesent at the tribunal - I hate to say this but I think I'm going to put an end to this now.
Title: Re: Bus Lane Contravention Lancelot Road, Brent > PCN non-compliant
Post by: Hippocrates on August 07, 2023, 09:41:33 am
Not wishing to disagree or play Devil's Advocate, one might meet another adjudicator who may decide that the PCN gives you an extra time period!  We all know whom.  ;)  Similarly, Kingston have the same problem which I hope will be won in the next couple of months.
Title: Re: Bus Lane Contravention Lancelot Road, Brent > PCN non-compliant
Post by: cp8759 on August 06, 2023, 09:55:07 pm
I'm not aware of this particular technicality ever failing, indeed the adjudicators have started using sterner wording if you look for example at what Carl Teper said in Ian O'Flynn v London Borough of Lambeth (2230309483, 26 July 2023) (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1KU5k-MmvJrj28ERY3tvQ2mbaFmVT0jGT&export=inline) just last week.

I'm happy to represent you at the tribunal if you wish.

For now all you need to do is send a formal representation using exactly the same text as last time:

Dear London Borough of Brent,

The London Local Authorities Act 1996 provides that a PCN must state that the full penalty of £130 must be paid before the end of the period of 28 days commencing with the date of the notice, however the PCN served in this instance wrongly states that the 28 day period commences with the date of service of the notice.

This is a material departure from the requirements of the statutory scheme, as a result of which no penalty may be demanded.

Yours faithfully,

Once you get the formal Notice of Rejection, I can do the rest for you.
Title: Re: Bus Lane Contravention Lancelot Road, Brent > PCN non-compliant
Post by: Incandescent on August 06, 2023, 08:57:37 pm
It really is up to you. cp8759 gave you what is normally a winning argument. Many appeals are won on technicalities, so don't think it will be ignored by the adjudicator. If you take them to London Tribunals, you'll have enough time to save up the extra £65.
Title: Bus Lane Contravention Lancelot Road, Brent > PCN non-compliant
Post by: persistence! on August 06, 2023, 06:29:59 pm
Hello

This continues the original thread (http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=149966) from the PePiPoo forum.


Please find attached the PCN, my representation (informal challenge), Brent's rejection, and most recently their 'kind' offer to let me have an extension to pay the discounted amount.

4 documents in total.

I have a dilemma now, as there is a window for me to pay the discounted amount or I risk it doubling.

What do you think? It's more risky to roll the dice now that they have given me the option to pay the lesser amount, and as much as I want to fight this, I can barely afford the 65 quid, let alone the 135!

Thanks


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