Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: T1help on October 08, 2024, 08:26:22 am
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That’s what I’ve mentioned on one of my previous posts; the letter/receipt that was included in the yellow envelope, I can’t find it. May have lost it
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OP, pl read that letter.
In essence, thank you for writing to us about your Penalty Charge Notice.
You MUST have found this on your car in a yellow envelope otherwise why would you write to the council in the first place?
The PCN contains among other matters:
The contravention;
Date;
VRM;
Location;
and lots of small print about appealing and paying.
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Hi,
Thanks for your response (and patience!).
I had attached the link previously with the council’s response - https://imgur.com/a/ALVvmsv
This has my address on it and name. This is the only thing I’ve received from the council thus far. Haven’t received a NtO in the post as of yet. I haven’t started drafting a formal response up as I wanted to see if I had a chance of being successful and making sure I include the right info before drafting it.
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OP, you haven't posted their letter of refusal of informal reps, just an extract. Please post this if possible. They will have re-offered the discount, so now you have to make a decision on whether to wait for the Notice to Owner, and submit a formal representation, or pay the discount. If you wait for the NtO, you lose the discount option, but most London councils re-offer it when rejecting formal reps. On the other hand, you could well succeed and they accept your reps and cancel the PCN.
We have yet to see your reps, but I suspect they will need to be beefed-up if you decide to wait for the NtO.
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Apologies I don’t have the physical notice served on the car. Tried to locate it but can’t find it unfortunately :'(
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OP, sorry to keep on about this but your link is not to the PCN - which is a physical notice to be served on the car (which the photos show was served)- but to their website which summarises the current position.
You must have found the PCN otherwise you wouldn't have known about the contravention or had any reason to make representations.
Where is it? If it's lost, so be it.
If not then post both sides so that we can check for procedural compliance.
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See attached PCN - had to get it from the Hackney website
https://imgur.com/a/c94boFL
Yes, I am the registered keeper and owner of the car. I have the V5c and the address is also up to date.
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As far as I can determine, the link goes to their response to your unseen challenge, not the PCN itself.
On this basis, do I have a fair chance of escalating this?
You have the right in law to take them to the adjudicators, but under the process, you must first wait for a Notice to Owner, and submit formal representations. Only when these are refused can you appeal to the adjudicators. Note that appeals to adjudicators mean the full PCN penalty is in play.
so far, what you have submitted and been refused on, is an informal challenge to the PCN. So the next question is, are you the owner and hold the V5C Registration Certificate for the car, and is the address on that up-to-date ? The Notice to Owner is sent to the keeper as recorded on the V5C.
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Not repost - I don't think you've posted the PCN served on the car?
It's disappointing that Hackney didn't cancel this but to get them to do so at the next stage will need marshalling all the facts and it may be they'll cancel second time owing to persistence but not guaranteed but they will probably reoffer the discount.
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Sorry what do you mean by pl repost?
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We should see the PCN, pl repost.
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As far as I can determine, the link goes to their response to your unseen challenge, not the PCN itself.
On this basis, do I have a fair chance of escalating this?
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As far as I can determine, the link goes to their response to your unseen challenge, not the PCN itself.
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PCN link has been attached in original post. The comment above doesn’t appear to be negative. If have to forfeit and pay the fine, then fair enough. Just a lesson learnt for me next time to not do that again and to park in the right space.
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We should see the PCN pl.
And are you the registered keeper with current DVLA details?
Sorry if this appears negative, but if it took 4-5 minutes to walk to Sainsbury's then you could have returned before the CEO clocked the car for the second time - after all they didn't clock the car while it was still in your sight or you'd have seen them.
The car was observed for 15 minutes and it's likely that even accepting everything else an adjudicator would consider this gave you adequate time to walk to Sainsbury's and return. There was no imperative for you to consume anything while at Sainsbury's or if your condition was so acute then IMO you should have parked closer.
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IMO, most adjudicators would take the view that given the OP's knowledge of their condition they should have these items to hand - the substantive point being beyond the driver's control. I can remember several years ago sitting in on a hearing on exactly these issues, the driver/appellant even brought their hessian bag with them and produced a bottle of what looked like Lucozade. In the end the adjudicator found a flaw in an unrelated element of the council's evidence.
OP, do you hold a BB?
No I don’t hold a BB. Having Type 1 diabetes doesn’t qualify me to have a BB.
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IMO, most adjudicators would take the view that given the OP's knowledge of their condition they should have these items to hand - the substantive point being beyond the driver's control. I can remember several years ago sitting in on a hearing on exactly these issues, the driver/appellant even brought their hessian bag with them and produced a bottle of what looked like Lucozade. In the end the adjudicator found a flaw in an unrelated element of the council's evidence.
OP, do you hold a BB?
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I once worked with a diabetic person, and can confirm that after eating something to restore sugar levels, a period of around 15 minutes is needed before they rise, as digestion has to take its course, it is not instantaneous.
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I was only there for about 15-20 minutes. Walk to the Sainsbury’s is about 4-5 minutes. Needed to purchase a snack and be okay to walk back. Normally you need to wait minimum 15 minutes to allow your blood sugar levels to rise. But I was in the area running personal errands for a big day ahead.
Where was the car parked when you were running personal errands?
Not at Kayani Avenue, it was parked on another road where parking restrictions didn't apply but this was 20 minutes away.
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I was only there for about 15-20 minutes. Walk to the Sainsbury’s is about 4-5 minutes. Needed to purchase a snack and be okay to walk back. Normally you need to wait minimum 15 minutes to allow your blood sugar levels to rise. But I was in the area running personal errands for a big day ahead.
Where was the car parked when you were running personal errands?
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Kayani Ave is a back street in new developments - why were you driving there?
How come it took that long to buy a snack?
Seems they don't believe your story as I'd expect discretion and this was a Sunday.
Except that the reps were informal so got the usual Fob-Off letter. However, the OP does need to tell us why he was t here for so long.
I was only there for about 15-20 minutes. Walk to the Sainsbury’s is about 4-5 minutes. Needed to purchase a snack and be okay to walk back. Normally you need to wait minimum 15 minutes to allow your blood sugar levels to rise. But I was in the area running personal errands for a big day ahead.
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Kayani Ave is a back street in new developments - why were you driving there?
How come it took that long to buy a snack?
Seems they don't believe your story as I'd expect discretion and this was a Sunday.
Except that the reps were informal so got the usual Fob-Off letter. However, the OP does need to tell us why he was t here for so long.
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Kayani Ave is a back street in new developments - why were you driving there?
How come it took that long to buy a snack?
Seems they don't believe your story as I'd expect discretion and this was a Sunday.
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Sorry, but no good without data. So read this, and update your thread accordingly : -
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
However, based on your narrative, you would seem to have a reasonably strong case.
Thanks I've now changed this. Hope it should be okay.
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Sorry, but no good without data. So read this, and update your thread accordingly : -
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
However, based on your narrative, you would seem to have a reasonably strong case.
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Good morning,
I received a PCN from LB of Hackney on Sunday 15th September 2024 for parking in a loading bay. I parked there because I have Type 1 diabetes and my blood sugar levels dropped. I checked it on my glucose monitor and it was 4.8 mmol/L. An image of this was sent as part of the initial appeal along with the time on the glucose reading. I explained that I went to the shop to get a snack to deal with my sugars to prevent getting a hypo as it needs to be at least 5.0 mmol/L to be able to drive. I parked in the loading bay due to the rest of the parking spaces being full and needing to treating my sugar levels accordingly.
This was their response:
“ In this instance, the Civil Enforcement Officer started observing at 08:51 and took the last photo of the vehicle at 09:06,
which indicates that they were in the vicinity of the vehicle for at least 15 minutes. We believe that 15 minutes is
sufficient time for the Civil Enforcement Officer to witness mitigating circumstances in progress.
We have noted your comments, and although we sympathise with the circumstances that you have described, it remains
the driver’s responsibility to park legally. It is unfortunate that your blood sugar levels dropped, however, we only
consider cancelling a Penalty Charge Notice in the event of a serious medical emergency that requires immediate
professional medical assistance, therefore we are satisfied the contravention has occurred.
Please be advised that as a motorist, it remains your responsibility to always check the relevant sign(s) and road
markings for any space, in which you intend to park. The motorist must ensure that they have parked in line with the
parking rules and restrictions“
https://imgur.com/a/ALVvmsv - This is the PCN
With this being said, they didn’t view me treating my sugar levels as a serious medical emergency. Is it worth still appealing this? The DVLA are aware I’ve got T1 diabetes and I have a 3-year restricted licence.
Thanks