Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Private parking tickets => Topic started by: roythebus on October 07, 2024, 09:23:36 pm

Title: Re: Parking Eye PCN Lidl car park Ashford
Post by: b789 on November 03, 2024, 06:14:17 pm
No. Just send it. You will get a POPLA code when they reject your appeal. This is just to respond to their letter with an explanation that may get through some thick skulls.
Title: Re: Parking Eye PCN Lidl car park Ashford
Post by: roythebus on November 03, 2024, 06:06:56 pm
Thanks for that, most useful. Should I wait for a popla code before sending this?
Title: Re: Parking Eye PCN Lidl car park Ashford
Post by: b789 on November 03, 2024, 04:18:57 pm
Dear ParkingEye,

Re: Parking Charge Notice - [Your Reference Number]

Thank you for your letter dated 31st October 2024. However, I must draw your attention to the specific requirements of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA), Schedule 4, which governs keeper liability in this matter.

While you have referenced section 9(2)(b) of PoFA to suggest that the keeper is liable, Schedule 4 only allows liability to be transferred to the keeper if all conditions are met, including sections 9(2)(a) and 9(2)(e)(i). Your Notice to Keeper (NtK) does not meet these requirements in the following ways:

Non-Compliance with Section 9(2)(a): PoFA 9(2)(a) requires that the NtK must specify the “relevant land” on which the vehicle was parked. In your notice, the location is simply listed as "Lidl, Ashford". This description is insufficient to meet the statutory requirement, as pointed out in my appeal, there are two different towns named Ashford, each with its own Lidl store. The failure to specify the exact location creates ambiguity, which means the NtK does not comply with PoFA 9(2)(a).

Non-Compliance with Section 9(2)(e)(i): PoFA 9(2)(e)(i) requires that the NtK explicitly invites the keeper to pay the parking charge if they were not the driver. The wording in your letter, however, does not contain any such invitation. Instead, it states:

“You have already been notified that under section 9(2)(b) of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 that the driver of the motor vehicle is required to pay this parking charge in full. As we do not know the driver’s name or current postal address, if you were not the driver at the time, you should tell us the full name and the current postal address of the driver.

You are warned that if, after 29 days from the Date of Issue, the parking charge has not been paid in full and we do not know both the name and current address of the driver, we have the right to recover any unpaid part of the parking charge from you, the registered keeper.”

As with the original NtK, this wording does not contain any invitation for the keeper to pay the charge if they were not the driver. Nor does it impose an obligation on the keeper to pay. Instead, it merely warns that, if the charge remains unpaid after 29 days and ParkingEye does not have the name and address of the driver, you may seek to recover the charge from the keeper. This language is insufficient to meet the statutory requirement, which mandates a clear and unambiguous invitation to the keeper to pay the charge if they were not the driver. By omitting this specific invitation, your NtK fails to comply with PoFA 9(2)(e)(i).

Warning under Section 9(2)(f): The warning you provided under section 9(2)(f) is only valid if all conditions of PoFA are met. Since your NtK does not comply with sections 9(2)(a) and 9(2)(e)(i), this warning does not have effect, as keeper liability cannot be established.

So, I remind you, partial or even substantial compliance with the requirements of PoFA is not sufficient to hold the keeper liable. Given these failures to fully comply with PoFA, there is no lawful basis to hold the keeper liable for this charge. I therefore request that you cancel this Parking Charge Notice.

Yours faithfully,

[Your Name]
Title: Re: Parking Eye PCN Lidl car park Ashford
Post by: DWMB2 on November 03, 2024, 01:44:37 pm
It's their standard fishing expedition letter. I'd ignore it and wait for their rejection which will include a POPLA code.
Title: Re: Parking Eye PCN Lidl car park Ashford
Post by: roythebus on November 02, 2024, 10:13:24 pm
Here's the reply from Parking Eye, note they totally ignore any of the points made in my letter (it was a cut and paste of the one provided up the page a bit), here's the link to their reply.
https://imgur.com/a/tExnNNQ
Title: Re: Parking Eye PCN Lidl car park Ashford
Post by: roythebus on November 02, 2024, 10:07:35 pm
Having sent my "appeal" to Parking eye, I've now received their usual "totally ignore all the points you make" letter, telling me I should name the driver.

They ignore the fact tht there's 2 Ashfords, each with a Lidl store. Hopefully attached redacted copies of their reply.
Title: Re: Parking Eye PCN Lidl car park Ashford
Post by: roythebus on October 26, 2024, 08:39:09 pm
Never knew I could do that! I can just about navigate my way round forums (fora?) like this but when it comes to other stuff my mind just can't cope with any more techy stuff. Mind you I've got an old email I could use.
Title: Re: Parking Eye PCN Lidl car park Ashford
Post by: b789 on October 26, 2024, 01:50:56 pm
Why on earth wouldn't you send the appeal online? So what if they have your email address? If you're so worried about giving them an email address then set up a temporary disposable one.
Title: Re: Parking Eye PCN Lidl car park Ashford
Post by: roythebus on October 26, 2024, 01:43:28 pm
I've been a bit busy the last couple of weeks, I got the letter by post off within the 28 days deadline, I didn't really want to do it online so as to give them access to me emails.

Now more waiting while they decide where Ashford is. I note on their website they do actually seem to have the precise location.
Title: Re: Parking Eye PCN Lidl car park Ashford
Post by: roythebus on October 11, 2024, 07:04:20 pm
Thanks for that, no I haven't sent them anything yet.I'll send this off over the weekend.

I wonder how many mugs just pay up?
Title: Re: Parking Eye PCN Lidl car park Ashford
Post by: b789 on October 11, 2024, 01:22:29 pm
OK. So, have you appealed to ParkingEye yet? You won't get a POPLA code until PE have rejected your initial appeal.

Here is an initial appeal for an almost identical appeal to PE for the same reasons, more than one possible location for the referenced location:

Quote
Reference: Parking Charge Notice – XXXXXX/XXXXXX

Dear Sir/Madam,

Thank you for your recent correspondence dated XX/XXX/XXXX in relation to the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) referenced above. As the registered keeper of the vehicle, I feel it is necessary to point out several critical errors and omissions in your Notice to Keeper (NtK) that demonstrate a clear lack of understanding of your obligations under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA). I will address these failings in detail below.

1. Failure to Specify the Relevant Land PoFA 9(2)(a)

Your NtK fails to meet the requirements of paragraph 9(2)(a) of PoFA, which obliges you to specify the "relevant land" where the vehicle was parked. Your vague reference to "Lidl Ashford" does not clearly identify the location of the alleged contravention.

You should be aware, there are two "Ashfords" with Lidl stores:

• Lidl, 25 New St, Ashford TN24 8TN
and
• Lidl, Stanwell Rd, Shepperton, Stanwell, Ashford TW15 3DX

Without clearly specifying which of these locations is the "relevant land," your NtK fails to meet the standard required by PoFA, leaving the keeper in doubt as to where the alleged breach occurred. This ambiguity further invalidates your claim to transfer liability to me as the registered keeper.

2. Lack of a Proper Invitation to the Keeper PoFA 9(2)(e)(i)

In addition to your failure to comply with PoFA 9(2)(a) above, your NtK does not comply with paragraph 9(2)(e)(i) of PoFA, which requires the NtK to “invite" the keeper to either pay the unpaid parking charge or, if they were not the driver, to provide the name and address of the driver. While your NtK mentions a request for the driver’s details, it fails to properly “invite”, or any synonym of the word, me, as the keeper, to pay the charge. This failure to issue a proper invitation further undermines your ability to hold me liable under PoFA.

3. No Obligation to Identify the Driver

As the registered keeper, I am under no legal obligation to identify the driver, and I decline to do so. You are entitled to request this information, but you cannot compel me to provide it to you, an unregulated private parking company with zero “authority” to demand anything. As the keeper, I put ParkingEye to strict proof that the person you are pursuing is the driver.

Conclusion

In summary, your NtK is non-compliant with PoFA in several material respects, most notably your failure to specify the relevant land pursuant to 9(2)(a) and invite the keeper to pay the charge pursuant to 9(2)(e)(i). You are therefore unable to transfer liability to me as the registered keeper. I request that you cancel this Parking Charge Notice immediately.

Should you choose to reject this appeal, I will require a POPLA code so that this matter can be escalated for (allegedly) independent review. Be advised that if you proceed with court action despite these obvious legal shortcomings, I will defend the claim robustly and will seek to recover my costs.
Title: Re: Parking Eye PCN Lidl car park Ashford
Post by: roythebus on October 11, 2024, 12:42:48 pm
https://imgur.com/a/UmJmqyK  Try this one.https://imgur.com/a/ILCxHCV

Ha, that was a bit easier than the other sites i was trying!! Thanks.
Title: Re: Parking Eye PCN Lidl car park Ashford
Post by: b789 on October 11, 2024, 11:59:44 am
Just use imgur.com (https://imgur.com). No need to register. Click on the "New post" near the top left. As soon as your image is uploaded, if you hover your mouse over the "copy link" in the top right corner of the image and then click on the three dots, then select "Get share links" and then click on the third "copy link" option (BBCode Forums), you can then simply paste into your post and that will display the image in the forum.

Most of us here are retired old fogeys, so your excuse is not accepted!  ::)
Title: Re: Parking Eye PCN Lidl car park Ashford
Post by: roythebus on October 11, 2024, 11:47:37 am
Having tried without success to post images in imgbb with no luck, I can't even get it to open a new account for me, Im trying with the next site down the list.  I really am lost with this. Can I email these to someone on here and get them to kindly post them for me? I get to my wits end with all these different websites that are far from easy for someone of my age to deal with.

I've just got a reminder letter in the post  from Parking Eye!
Title: Re: Parking Eye PCN Lidl car park Ashford
Post by: b789 on October 09, 2024, 11:28:09 pm
Only redact personal details, PCN number and VRM.
Title: Re: Parking Eye PCN Lidl car park Ashford
Post by: roythebus on October 09, 2024, 10:45:46 pm
I've managed to get the scanner working and have scanned the document both sides. Can someone remind me of what to redact on private parking letters. Sorry, I've been a bit busy helping 200 others in a big redundancy claim!
Title: Re: Parking Eye PCN Lidl car park Ashford
Post by: b789 on October 08, 2024, 08:59:55 am
I think you’ll find that POPLA decisions taken towards the end of the month get more varied as their “quota” of successful appeals drains away. They do have to justify their cost to their paymasters.
Title: Re: Parking Eye PCN Lidl car park Ashford
Post by: DWMB2 on October 08, 2024, 08:43:28 am
Indeed, although we had a case on here a while ago where a POPLA assessor decided "St Michael's Court" (no other information at all) was sufficient, baffling  ::)
Title: Re: Parking Eye PCN Lidl car park Ashford
Post by: roythebus on October 08, 2024, 08:14:22 am
It just says Lidl Ashford, no other location or postcode! You can't get more vague than that.
Title: Re: Parking Eye PCN Lidl car park Ashford
Post by: DWMB2 on October 08, 2024, 06:20:40 am
This is one of those that should be straightforward at POPLA, but I would caveat that they have come out with some weird decisions on vague land descriptions of late.
Title: Re: Parking Eye PCN Lidl car park Ashford
Post by: b789 on October 08, 2024, 01:31:06 am
If it’s a PE NtK, the contravention is hidden in the first few paragraphs on the back.

The issue with the location is that it has to be defined and unambiguous. Is the location Lidl, Ashford TW15 3DX or is it Lidl, Ashford TN24 8TN?

A while ago I put together POPLA appeal which was successful for a PE PCN for Lidl, St Neots. Unfortunately for PE, there are two Lidl’s in St Neots, although only one had a PE contract. Didn’t matter. Failure to specify the relevant land is a PoFA failure and the Keeper cannot be liable.

Here is a link to the POPLA appeal which was successful. If your plan B appeal to PE is unsuccessful, you can adapt it quite easily to your case:

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/f7kkc340y7p22p7my0vir/POPLAappeal-copy.pdf?rlkey=v7c6aqqevtl4mm34t2jpar937&st=ym5cezzv&dl=0

Title: Re: Parking Eye PCN Lidl car park Ashford
Post by: roythebus on October 07, 2024, 10:44:44 pm
Tried that this evening, manager couldn't give a flip of a pancake. "Nothing to do with us, we don't run the car park, we get a bow locking if we phone the parking company". I told him that if the matter isn't dropped I'd be shopping at ldi where you don't have to tap out for the car park and the trolleys don't need a £ or a bent washer to release them.
Title: Re: Parking Eye PCN Lidl car park Ashford
Post by: DWMB2 on October 07, 2024, 09:43:26 pm
Yep, we'll need to see the documents.

A good first step in the meantime, assuming the driver was a customer, is to speak to the management of Lidl - anecdotally supermarkets are often fairly good at cancelling PCNs for genuine customers.
Title: Parking Eye PCN Lidl car park Ashford
Post by: roythebus on October 07, 2024, 09:23:36 pm
I can see a surefire win on this one. AS RK I got Parking Charge Notice from PE for..hang on, reading it again, no contravention has been mentioned.. paring in the Lidl Car Park in Ashford.

Not really a vague location <ahem> as there's 2 Ashfords each of which apparently has a Lidl shop. One in Kent, the other in Surrey, near Heathrow. WhenI get a spare 10 minutes I'll post both sides of the PCN.