Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: azuremumbai80 on October 02, 2024, 07:59:30 am

Title: Re: PCN - Swindon Borough Council Bus Lane
Post by: cp8759 on December 20, 2024, 06:03:49 pm
Underacted version of Divya Shetty v Swindon Borough Council (SI00031-2411, 11 December 2024) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vvbNvYaHKTYEQQRyJzmeI3ez4ZdQSC_q/view).
Title: Re: PCN - Swindon Borough Council Bus Lane
Post by: Incandescent on December 20, 2024, 12:36:24 pm
Just to add that I found this, on the Law Commision website
https://lawcom.gov.uk/project/misconduct-in-public-office/
The report was issued in 2020, so I don't hold out much hope of reform. What is needed is a law that at least makes our council officials look over their shoulders much more.

Title: Re: PCN - Swindon Borough Council Bus Lane
Post by: Incandescent on December 20, 2024, 11:54:35 am
And no doubt Swindon BC will just carry on issuing unlawful PCNs because they know that as soon as most people received one, they immediately cough-up, and there are no sanctions against them for doing so, although IMHO malfeasance is what they are engaged in.

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/misconduct-public-office

So until the council officer in charge of enforcement goes to jail, they'll just carry on.
Title: Re: PCN - Swindon Borough Council Bus Lane
Post by: AceKingPin on December 20, 2024, 11:48:40 am
Hello all, I managed to get my PCN cancelled by Swindon council for the same reasons as @azuremumbai80 - by submitting the following representation:

"Dear Swindon Borough Council,

I believe that this PCN is invalid and must be cancelled because it does not comply with the mandatory requirements of regulation 3(2)(b) of The Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (England) Regulations 2022.

Procedural impropriety became one of the grounds upon which representations could be made under these 2022 regulations.

The PCN's page for representations lists the old 2005 regulations and doesn't contain the full list of statutory grounds for a representation.

I am also aware of a successful challenge at Tribunal in relation to case number SI00031-2411, PCN # SI72804603, where the above challenge was upheld by Adjudicator Robinson on 11/12/24. I attach the adjudicator's decision here.

I therefore request that Swindon Council cancel this PCN to save time for everyone involved."

Thank you to @Incandescent and @cp8759 for your awareness of these elements, it is a great help.
Title: Re: PCN - Swindon Borough Council Bus Lane
Post by: azuremumbai80 on December 12, 2024, 09:37:31 am
Morning All,
As promised please find attached the final decision for the Swindon Bus Lane contravention.

Hope its helpful for others in a similar situation ..

Many thanks for your support.

@AceKingPin for your information-Attachment

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: PCN - Swindon Borough Council Bus Lane
Post by: azuremumbai80 on December 11, 2024, 06:54:21 pm
Yes sure @AceKingPin my case number is SI00031-2411..
I will soon upload the judgement copy after redacting some personal information,
Title: Re: PCN - Swindon Borough Council Bus Lane
Post by: John U.K. on December 11, 2024, 06:49:53 pm
Quote from: azuremumbai80 on December 11, 2024, 05:09:38 pm
Dear team,
Great news ..I won the appeal against the Swindon council for the Bus lane PCN.
Thanks you all again...

Well done! To help others, when you receive the printed decision, please post copy here, as, unlike London Tribunals, TPT do not put their decisions online.
Title: Re: PCN - Swindon Borough Council Bus Lane
Post by: AceKingPin on December 11, 2024, 06:28:48 pm
That's great news - thank you for confirming.

If I may ask @azuremumbai80 - is there a case number you are willing to share that I can quote on my initial response to Swindon council regarding your citation of the procedural error and the adjudicator's outcome - which might help me in my case?

I have the same format PCN as the one you submitted, so think my case is in scope for the same grounds to contest this.

Many thanks.
Title: Re: PCN - Swindon Borough Council Bus Lane
Post by: azuremumbai80 on December 11, 2024, 05:09:38 pm
Dear team,
Great news ..I won the appeal against the Swindon council for the Bus lane PCN.
The adjudicator upheld my argument on the grounds of procedural improvement which was based on the older 2005 legislation.

Note -There was no formal hearing due to my request to postpone but  adjudicator promptly resolved through Q&A /review in the portal with Swindon council representative.

The Council is directed to cancel the PCN.

I would like to wholeheartedly thank cp8759 , Incandescent and others for their time in reviewing my PCN and providing the suggestion without which this would not have been possible...

Thanks you all again...

Title: Re: PCN - Swindon Borough Council Bus Lane
Post by: AceKingPin on December 11, 2024, 09:32:12 am
Good luck with your hearing on Friday - I'm interested in your outcome as I am in the same situation.

I've only been at a hearing once before and am not a lawyer, but I would say you should know the legal statute you are using, and maybe prepare by considering likely counter arguments by the council and your response to those?
Title: Re: PCN - Swindon Borough Council Bus Lane
Post by: azuremumbai80 on December 09, 2024, 10:05:54 am
Morning All,
 Any useful guidance for the hearing that I could apply for the procedural shortcomings. 
Title: Re: PCN - Swindon Borough Council Bus Lane
Post by: azuremumbai80 on November 30, 2024, 08:02:46 pm
Hi All,
 I have got a hearing date on 13/12/2024 with the Tribunal.

Any additional preparatory evidence iid you can please guide ?


Date:   13/12/2024
Time:   15:00 pm - 15:30 pm
Title: Re: PCN - Swindon Borough Council Bus Lane
Post by: azuremumbai80 on November 15, 2024, 06:06:25 pm
Thanks..

Please find the Authority Summary for the Appeal-

Authority Summary:   The Penalty Charge Notice has been issued correctly and in line with current legislation.  The document contains grounds for representation.  Documents were updated when the new legislation came into force.

Mrs Divya Shetty vehicle has been observed on CCTV driving through Penzance Drive Bus gate.  There are clear signs in the area including a sign at the pedestrian crossing alerting road users of the upcoming bus gate, as well as a sign on the traffic lights showing no left turn accept for buses, taxi’s and cycles.

We do not believe that there has been any procedural error and the Penalty Charge Notice has been issued correctly.






My Appeal statement :-



Grounds of Appeal:   
The authority made a procedural error

I think I have compelling reasons

Explanation:   
Whilst Page 1 of the PCN lists the correct regulations for the PCN for my car Lg23WKT, the page for representations is seriously misleading as it lists the old ACT and the old regulations, and in addition, does not contain the full list of statutory grounds for a representation.  This is a serious error and grounds for cancellation of the PCN. I would like to raise this with Traffic Penalty tribunal on the grounds of procedural impropriety.  This is one of the statutory grounds omitted by the council on their PCNs. Councils must obey the law just like they expect motorists to.


Title: Re: PCN - Swindon Borough Council Bus Lane
Post by: Incandescent on November 15, 2024, 05:40:34 pm
Quote from: azuremumbai80 on November 15, 2024, 02:46:27 pm
Hi All,
Hope you are well.

Following my appeal , I have been asked to go for a Telephone  or Video or Adjudicator hearing.

Any recommendation which one should I take first..
The default if unanswered in 7 days goes to adjudicator.
Either phone or if you have the kit, video, and never adjudicator, which means there is no hearing, all the adjudicator does is read the papers and comes to a decision.
Title: Re: PCN - Swindon Borough Council Bus Lane
Post by: azuremumbai80 on November 15, 2024, 02:46:27 pm
Hi All,
Hope you are well.

Following my appeal , I have been asked to go for a Telephone  or Video or Adjudicator hearing.

Any recommendation which one should I take first..
The default if unanswered in 7 days goes to adjudicator. 
Title: Re: PCN - Swindon Borough Council Bus Lane
Post by: azuremumbai80 on November 04, 2024, 10:08:22 am
I am just filling the tribunal appeal(Traffic Penalty Tribunal) form and can note that even questionnaire tribunal list does not cover all the ground as listed in the Section 5 -
The Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (England) Regulations 2022 below. I have attached the screenshot.


https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2022/576/regulation/5/made

Please guide.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: PCN - Swindon Borough Council Bus Lane
Post by: Incandescent on November 02, 2024, 08:03:54 pm
Quote from: azuremumbai80 on November 02, 2024, 07:59:45 pm
Hi team,
Thanks for your support . I got  a rejection for my representation and have been asked to reach out to the Tribunal .
Should I take the same argument to the Tribunal now.Pleas e guide..
Letter as attached and link

https://1drv.ms/b/c/8af311400893ecfb/EVzL2SRp_hlJikscbtn1wqABRjtBnjkFj9Iih7h_XPMHZA?e=XBt9Ef
If it were me, I'd be taking them to the tribunal. Councils must obey the law same as you.
Title: Re: PCN - Swindon Borough Council Bus Lane
Post by: azuremumbai80 on November 02, 2024, 07:59:45 pm
Hi team,
Thanks for your support . I got  a rejection for my representation and have been asked to reach out to the Tribunal .
Should I take the same argument to the Tribunal now.Pleas e guide..
Letter as attached and link

https://1drv.ms/b/c/8af311400893ecfb/EVzL2SRp_hlJikscbtn1wqABRjtBnjkFj9Iih7h_XPMHZA?e=XBt9Ef

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: PCN - Swindon Borough Council Bus Lane
Post by: cp8759 on October 27, 2024, 02:07:18 pm
@azuremumbai80 no, they're supposed to know the law that they purport to enforce.
Title: Re: PCN - Swindon Borough Council Bus Lane
Post by: azuremumbai80 on October 27, 2024, 11:56:18 am
Do I need to also provide the link in my  representation such as the below :-


https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukdsi/2022/9780348232752/contents
Regulation 5
Title: Re: PCN - Swindon Borough Council Bus Lane
Post by: azuremumbai80 on October 27, 2024, 11:21:58 am
Thank you so much for your advice @cp8759.
Title: Re: PCN - Swindon Borough Council Bus Lane
Post by: cp8759 on October 22, 2024, 12:02:05 am
Video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXSqwLtNNpw

@azuremumbai80 this is the best rep I could come up with at short notice:

Dear Swindon Borough Council,

The PCN is invalid and must be cancelled because it does not comply with the mandatory requirements of regulation 3(2)(b) of The Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (England) Regulations 2022.

Yours faithfully,

Send it online and keep a screenshot of the confirmation page.
Title: Re: PCN - Swindon Borough Council Bus Lane
Post by: Incandescent on October 21, 2024, 07:07:21 pm
Quote from: azuremumbai80 on October 21, 2024, 07:05:18 pm
Is there any link for the statutory grounds that you can please guide me for reference ?
Here: -
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukdsi/2022/9780348232752/contents
Regulation 5
Title: Re: PCN - Swindon Borough Council Bus Lane
Post by: azuremumbai80 on October 21, 2024, 07:05:18 pm
Is there any link for the statutory grounds that you can please guide me for reference ?
Title: Re: PCN - Swindon Borough Council Bus Lane
Post by: Incandescent on October 21, 2024, 10:04:59 am
Whilst Page 1 of the PCN lists the correct regulations for the PCN, the page for representations is seriously misleading as it lists the old ACTand the old regulations, and in addition, does not contain the full list of statutory grounds for a representation.
This, for me, is a serious error and grounds for cancellation of the PCN. I would take this all the way to adjudication of the grounds of procedural impropriety. This is one of the statutory grounds omitted by the council on their PCNs. Councils must obey the law just like they expect motorists to.
Title: Re: PCN - Swindon Borough Council Bus Lane
Post by: azuremumbai80 on October 21, 2024, 09:29:30 am
Please find attached the PCN Car Images in this post


https://imgur.com/a/pGNFCqq
Title: Re: PCN - Swindon Borough Council Bus Lane
Post by: cp8759 on October 20, 2024, 10:00:28 pm
@azuremumbai80 as per the guidance (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/), you need to post all sides of all pages of the PCN, we can't really do anything with the selective snippets you've posted. The only things you need to redact are your postal address and, optionally, your full name. All other information must be left visible if you want effective help.
Title: Re: PCN - Swindon Borough Council Bus Lane- Penzance Drive camera
Post by: azuremumbai80 on October 15, 2024, 04:42:27 pm
Here is the FOI response from Swindon council on the Bus Lane PCN


Please find the response to your FOI request below;

1. For 2024, Number of PCN issued by council for Bus Lane camera in
Penzance Drive . Penzance Drive camera S0003 – 9,064 for 2024 so far

2.For 2024 , the total revenue collected from PCN for Penzance Drive bus
Lane camera . £267,172.69

3. Total number of PCN Appeals for Penzance Drive bus lane camera. 7 PCNs
appealed through Traffic Penalty Tribunal in 2024

4. Number of PCN Appeals lost by Council(Successful by the appellant) for
Penzance Drive bus lane camera and most prominent reason for losing the
Appeal by Council

6 appeals dismissed (appellant lost) 1 case still to be heard

In 2024 there were 1,659 representations, not specific to Penzance Drive
or Bus Lane PCNs.

In 2024 520 rejected bus lane representations, not specific to Penzance
Drive

In 2024 152 acceptances for bus lane representations, not specific to
Penzance Drive

5. The most common reasons for upholding the appeals

Unfortunately we are unable to provide this information as we would need
to go through each individual (9,064) case to check if the cases was
rejected, accepted or paid which would exceed the timescales.
Title: Re: PCN - Swindon Borough Council Bus Lane
Post by: Incandescent on October 09, 2024, 02:41:34 pm
The problem with all cases outside London is that the Traffic Penalty Tribunal do not have an on-line searchable Statutory Register, unlike London Tribunals. This makes it very difficult seeing what previous appeals were submitted and how many won and why. Just saying it is a big earner for the council is not going to win any appeal you submit, you need to demonstrate that the way the Bus Lane has been implemented is flawed. For me, it must be if it's generating so much dosh for the council, but you need to demonstrate why it's bad.
Title: Re: PCN - Swindon Borough Council Bus Lane
Post by: azuremumbai80 on October 09, 2024, 02:15:30 pm
Can someone please guide on the PCN and whether appeal is the correct route ?
Title: Re: PCN - Swindon Borough Council Bus Lane
Post by: azuremumbai80 on October 06, 2024, 12:59:31 pm
Any updates from members with previous experience in appealing the PCN for this category.
Title: Re: PCN - Swindon Borough Council Bus Lane
Post by: azuremumbai80 on October 02, 2024, 06:58:33 pm
I have raised an FOI today on the number of PCN raised for 'Penzance Drive bus lane camera, and how many are lost/rejected due to Appeals.
Title: Re: PCN - Swindon Borough Council Bus Lane
Post by: azuremumbai80 on October 02, 2024, 06:30:14 pm
Has anyone successfully appealed against the camera or its location in respect to the road ?
Title: Re: PCN - Swindon Borough Council Bus Lane
Post by: azuremumbai80 on October 02, 2024, 06:28:42 pm
Agree ..For a person from outside Swindon , this is a odd location for a camera when one enters Swindon car park...
From the article it mentions atleast 0.5 million from the camera...
Title: Re: PCN - Swindon Borough Council Bus Lane
Post by: Foxy01 on October 02, 2024, 11:38:27 am
This is a very big earner for Swindon. The advance warning sign has been changed, historic Google Street View shows how it used to be (pre 2019). There used to be a second No Left Turn sign after the pedestrian crossing, however this has now been removed. The road markings have also been changed to 'Bus Gate'. Swindon Borough Council swear everything is compliant here, but it is a massive earner and impacts visitors to Swindon.
Press article (https://hellorayo.co.uk/greatest-hits/swindon/news/swindon-bus-lane-penzance-drive-fines/)
Title: Re: PCN - Swindon Borough Council Bus Lane
Post by: Incandescent on October 02, 2024, 11:28:25 am
Quote from: d612 on October 02, 2024, 09:03:44 am
Looks like the photos are of the other end of the Penzance Drive bus only road.
Seen here in the streetview link from the entry to that bus access only road
The camera position is further up the bus road looking back towards the public access road - Rodbourne road B4289

https://maps.app.goo.gl/TvTpJsvaSYdRSZPR9
Indeed. I was in a rush this morning so had to stop investigating.
Here is the advance warning sign on the B4289 Rodbourne Road. Only Bing Maps has the name.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/6EwAwVdPcyXxzb4j8
Title: Re: PCN - Swindon Borough Council Bus Lane
Post by: d612 on October 02, 2024, 09:03:44 am
Looks like the photos are of the other end of the Penzance Drive bus only road.
Seen here in the streetview link from the entry to that bus access only road
The camera position is further up the bus road looking back towards the public access road - Rodbourne road B4289

https://maps.app.goo.gl/TvTpJsvaSYdRSZPR9


Title: Re: PCN - Swindon Borough Council Bus Lane
Post by: Incandescent on October 02, 2024, 08:45:52 am
Bus lane sign and advance warning sign: -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/kUfiRWrRhAPwga6L7
then, at the roundabout: -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/mYtmQucGNeNfzXX38
Title: Re: PCN - Swindon Borough Council Bus Lane
Post by: John U.K. on October 02, 2024, 08:04:50 am
Quote
Attached herein, [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ]

Have a read of
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/

and use an external site such as imgur or ibb.co.uk and paste the BBCodes here.
Title: PCN - Swindon Borough Council Bus Lane
Post by: azuremumbai80 on October 02, 2024, 07:59:30 am
1.TOPIC TITLE.  - Bus Lane Camera -PCN
Council name or other authority - Swindon Borough Council
The alleged contravention (summarise - no need to quote in full) - 34J , Being in a Bus Lane
Location - Penzance Drive, Swindon


2. Outline your case/tell your story/explain the problem and how we might help.
I got a PCN for a being a bus lane on the Saturday with no clear signage of the Bus lane indicator and timings.
There was no bus to block and was difficult to identify the camera location and the location of the vehicle.
Images are blurred and unable to recognise.

I request a guidance on the approach.

3. Post the PCN and all subsequent notices or correspondence.   Car Images and PCN  (https://imgur.com/a/3hVOQQ0)

https://1drv.ms/i/c/8af311400893ecfb/EcuND1pViadBmFHH4tLe218BNZYpinXKMZ2rq7qYY24XvQ?e=TAwiBz
https://1drv.ms/i/c/8af311400893ecfb/EZ28Ht1uS8pIrhe92pvg5sQBI1x2q60BQ9KHPW3m2btGdA?e=02rgN6
https://1drv.ms/i/c/8af311400893ecfb/EYQbX8OkkiZOlTwUyAcol24BayNppcKaMdB9wfdkxwsxdQ?e=5dnhJe