Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: iHad on September 29, 2024, 12:13:02 pm
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Update: challenge rejected Thanks for you inputs and help. I decided to pay it.
Rejection letter:
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Dear
Traffic Management Act 2004
RE: Formal Notice of Rejection of Representations for Penalty Charge Notice (PCN):
AG46648067
Thank you for your correspondence received on 01/10/2024 in which you made representations regarding the above PCN that was issued for the following contravention:
Contravention Date and Time: 14/09/2024 at 10:41
Vehicle Registration: W17GPO
Location: Ballards Lane (N3), junction with Nether St and Chaville Way Contravention: Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited
We have carefully considered your comments and decided not to cancel your PCN. clear and Sops ad to us presence ta said the in ion. on thion ours g
the motorist enters the box junction and has insufficient space at the other side to exit without stopping. A contravention is committed if any part of the vehicle is left stationary within the confines of the box junction regardless of the length of time involved.
In your response, you have stated that you entered the box junction to turn right and were prevented by other vehicles turning right. However, the Highway Code Rule 174 states: "Box junctions. These have criss-crossed yellow lines painted on the road (see 'Road markings').
You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear. However, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right.
The CCTV footage shows your vehicle travelling through the box, following the vehicle ahead, without slowing or waiting to ensure your exit route or lane was clear prior to entering.
Please be advised that motorists should not follow the vehicle in front as it may stop and prevent their exit from the box junction.
Photographic evidence, taken from the CCTV footage, has been enclosed for your consideration.
The Council would refer you to the following web link (Online Media), to where you can view the CCTV evidence of the contravention, as well as the photographic images.
https://barnetocm.itsvc.co.uk/
The Council would add, the page will require the entering of both the PCN reference and VRM, in order to view the evidence for the contravention.
After careful consideration of the evidence put before us, it is our opinion that the PCN is valid Tester you the pe cay celia this iS no eye on 0, i gesture, e aays im the
date of this letter.
Please ensure, that the payment of the discounted amount is received within the stipulated timescale, or alternatively, you can appeal our decision Online or via the form attached.
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The OP should certainly challenge. My suggestion is to add in the concern about the layout and unfairness of enforcement if you are not familiar with the two to one lane arrangement and see if Barnet addresses it.
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I am inclined to think this is a contravention because at the point of entering the box there isn't a clear exit space.
I believe this is how adjudicators seem to approach the right turn exemption but, unless I'm missing something (most likely!) I can't see how this is consistent with how the exemption is framed in the regulations (which state...)
"The prohibition in sub-paragraph (1) does not, in respect of a box junction within sub-paragraph (6)(a) of the definition of that expression, apply to a person who—
(a)causes a vehicle to enter the box junction for the purpose of turning right; and
(b)stops the vehicle within the box junction for so long as the vehicle is prevented from completing the right turn by an oncoming vehicle or other vehicle which is stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn."
I.e. the entering without a clear exit prohibition does not apply where both (a) and (b) are in play.
Which to me translates as you can enter a box junction if your purpose is to turn right and you end up waiting there because you are blocked by another car which hasn't 100% completed a right turn.
Now in this particular case, it might be challenging to argue that the car immediately in front of the OP hasn't completed its right turn but that's a slightly different point.
Similarly I've seen it stated by adjudicators that the right turn exemption does not apply in boxes situated at T-junctions - again can't see how the exemption as set out states (or even implies) this.
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I am inclined to think this is a contravention because at the point of entering the box there isn't a clear exit space.
I turned right here yesterday, I made sure I could get out, from the right hand lane, before starting my turn. I also had an eye on the left hand lane to ensure I couldn't be cut up by a car taking my space. We all need to drive defensively in yellow boxes.
I agree but you're approaching the junction with local knowledge.
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I am inclined to think this is a contravention because at the point of entering the box there isn't a clear exit space.
I turned right here yesterday, I made sure I could get out, from the right hand lane, before starting my turn. I also had an eye on the left hand lane to ensure I couldn't be cut up by a car taking my space. We all need to drive defensively in yellow boxes.
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I'm not sure he can change thread title after this amount of time. might have to ask a mod to do it.
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Also, amend the thread title by adding the location - Ballards Lane and Nether Street box junction.
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You can say you are aware there is concern about the road layout going from two lanes to one as per the FOI request and Mr Mustard's observations. His name is Derek Dishman and he is very well known to Barnet parking. Email him first at mrmustard@zoho.com as he has looked at tribunal decisions here.
Add this into Mr Chips' draft.
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Thanks @stamfordman and @MrChips for your replies. Should I add the link of the freedom of information request link :
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/yellow_box_junction_nether_st_ba
That @stamfordman sent to prove the confusion and the wrong issuing of the PCN because of the merging of 2 lanes into one lane and the hindering of seeing a clear exit, or should I just send the last version of the challenge that @MrChips wrote to me yesterday!!
Many many thanks for your input and help
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The issue here is, are you entitled to move into the box to turn right even if you can see/can't see the exit road is blocked. The correct thing to do is probably to stay on your side of the road and not block traffic from the right and complete the turn when you can in line with other traffic moving across the junction.
Someone had a right go at Barnet trying to find out the enforcement policy here given the road markings show right turn from both lanes but the exit merges almost at once into one lane:
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/yellow_box_junction_nether_st_ba
Mr Mustard may know more.
EDIT
View from @mrmustard - but no silver bullet:
https://lbbspending.blogspot.com/2022/05/barnet-put-pcn-camera-at-goldmine.html
(https://i.imgur.com/20MjwYu.gif)
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Re your draft representations, I think these are framed correctly. However, having seen this sort of thing many times before, I suspect Barnet will refuse these by focussing on the absence of any oncoming vehicles. Therefore I'd be tempted to remove reference to oncoming vehicles and just refer to the exemption with respect to other vehicles turning right, as follows. If they then reply saying you are relying on oncoming vehicles, that might open up an additional defence of failing to consider...
Dear Sir / Madam
Re: AG46648067
I am challenging this PCN dated 14/09/2024 on the following grounds:
As per the TSRGD 2016, the prohibition of entering a yellow junction box doesn`t apply to a person who:
(A) Causes a vehicle to enter the box junction for the purpose of turning right;
And
(B) Stops the vehicle within the box junction for so long as the vehicle is prevented from completing the right turn by another vehicle which is stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn.
To further quote from the Highway Code and the TFL website:
“You must not enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear. HOWEVER, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by ... other vehicles waiting to turn right.
Law TSRGD regs 10(1) & 29(2)”
“You can stop in a yellow box junction when turning right if you are prevented from turning by ... other vehicles waiting to turn right”
The video evidence shows that I entered the box junction for the purpose of turning right, and stopped in the box junction only for so long as I was waiting behind another vehicle which was stationary waiting to complete the same right turn onto Regents Park Road. For this reason, I am requesting that this PCN be cancelled.
I look forward to hearing from you.
Yours faithfully,
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I wouldn't bother as it shouldn't make any difference. You enter a box junction at your own risk. If a car further up the chain stops prematurely and you end up stuck then that's not really a defence (or else box junctions would effectively serve no purpose).
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thanks.
should I add those 2 photos as an evidence for the in front of me cars stopped without the need to stop and I needed to wait for them ?
https://ibb.co/pzBgtXr
https://ibb.co/Hq0G9sr
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I'm afraid you'll just have to submit those representations and see what reply then come up with. So submit it, and post up their response when you get it. I'm not sure from the video if you have a slam-dunk appeal, but it looks a fairly robust case to me. If the actions of the vehicles match the exemptions in the regulations then you should win.
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thanks for your reply and I did made a challenge based on your advice. I`d appriciate it if you can take a look and correct to me if I need to change something;
Dear Sir / Madam
Re:
I am challenging this pcn (AG46648067) dated 14/09/2024 on the following grounds:
-The prohibition of entering the yellow junction box doesn`t applies to a person who:
(A) Causes a vehicle to enter the junction box for the purpose of turning right;
And
(B) Stops the vehicle within the junction box for so long as the vehicle is prevented from completing the right turn by an oncoming vehicle or other vehicle which is stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn.
To quote from the highway code and the TFL website:
“You must not enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear. HOWEVER, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right.
Law TSRGD regs 10(1) & 29(2)”
“You can stop in a yellow box junction when turning right if you are prevented from turning by oncoming traffic or by other vehicles waiting to turn right”
For the reason mentioned above, I am requesting that this pcn to be waived or cancelled.
I look forward to hearing from you.
Yours faithfully,
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There don't have to be. Exemption is worded as follows:
"The prohibition ... does not ...apply to a person who—
(a)causes a vehicle to enter the box junction for the purpose of turning right; and
(b)stops the vehicle within the box junction for so long as the vehicle is prevented from completing the right turn by an oncoming vehicle or other vehicle which is stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn."
The word "or" is very important.
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Thanks for your reply, but I don’t think the turning right exemption will work here because there are no oncoming cars.
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Turning right exemption may be in play here. Will depend on whether the car you stopped behind was stationary while waiting to complete a right turn.
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Hello everyone,
Got a PCN yesterday through the post.
I think that I`ve been wrongly charged because the one in front of me had space but they stopped without the need to stop( see edited picture please).also, I didnt stop long, a few seconds only and only the rear tires touching.
my car is the grey toyota RAV4.
is it worth challenging or not? any advice appricated please.
thanks in advance.
https://sendvid.com/0oimz5oh
https://ibb.co/3pxsYkH
https://ibb.co/pzBgtXr
https://ibb.co/sJYHsvM
https://ibb.co/Hq0G9sr
https://ibb.co/wM3bP0q
https://ibb.co/nswJr2P
https://ibb.co/23TSbsZ
https://ibb.co/NjZDt9c
https://ibb.co/q1BSySv
https://maps.app.goo.gl/PqfyQkWhTKG9Xp7E9