Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: sng165 on September 27, 2024, 04:01:40 pm
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That's good but it would be useful to know how Manchester didn't pick up the correct address as per V5C at the time.
A probable procedural impropriety and grounds for cancellation of the PCN, but the OP has now paid it.
It's not that - it's worrying that it can happen and I can't see how.
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That's good but it would be useful to know how Manchester didn't pick up the correct address as per V5C at the time.
A probable procedural impropriety and grounds for cancellation of the PCN, but the OP has now paid it.
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That's good but it would be useful to know how Manchester didn't pick up the correct address as per V5C at the time.
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:D :D :D :D
A Final Entry
Numerous calls & emails following the advices of the kind people on this site, I am pleased to confirm that today's conversation with staff at Debt Recovery at Manchester City Council has finally resolved the issue.
The original PCN was apparently sent to the original owner of our old vehicle WT19 FFJ, who referred the matter to trader Motorpoint from whom we bought the old car several years ago, they gave Manchester City Council our old address. This information continued to be used until Newlyn decided to check the V5C.
However we had obtained & sent a copy of the V5C from the Ford dealers who we had traded it in to last month, confirming the DVLA had held our new address since Dec 2022 when we moved.
There were obvious failings somewhere within the vehicle registration system, - I'm not quite sure what had gone wrong between the original buyer trading it into Motor point & our purchase of it, but now it's sorted & as we no longer own the car I don't care! However this explains the long delay between issuing PCN etc. It looks like some items went to the old owner of the vehicle who then sent it on to the Motorpoint dealership, who then sent it back with (the wrong) address.
Anyway - Newlyn bailiffs/debt recovery has now been cancelled, & as we never disputed the offence, we have paid the £30 original Bus Lane fine (see below), all debt recovery has been withdrawn, and the matter has been closed. (We have had all confirmation from all parties in writing).
Thanks once again to all parties for advices. Much appreciated.
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Do you have anything in writing that indicates that Manchester City Council sent the PCN and subsequent notices to you at your old address?
Or might it have been some other name and/or address that was used, perhaps nothing to do with you?
You now have a copy of the V5c so you have proof that your address was correct as far back as the 22nd Dec 2022, which is good news.
Written confirmation of an incorrect address at the Council end should make this easier for an Out of Time application. When you call please see if you can get an email from Manchester confirming the address they actually used.
The Council, once you'd been traced, would have applied to have the warrant of the 9th July resealed (reissued) with your current address, when the bailiff couldn't enforce at whatever address was used. It seems likely that such a reissue happened since the Notice of Enforcement is dated the 12th Sept 2024 which is a long delay.
You could also phone the Traffic Enforcement Centre at Northampton County Court first thing Monday. Ask them to confirm the address originally used on the warrant and whether and/or when the warrant was resealed to the new address. Tel: 0300-123 1059 09:00am to 17:00pm.
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With the VRM you can check here to see what date the last V5 was issued. https://vehicleenquiry.service.gov.uk/
Quite likely it hasn't been sold on yet so might tell you if a new V5 was issued.
If you review the thread you'll see we've already been there done that got the t-shirt...
I see that now...not at all obvious when viewing on a phone whether or not you are at the end of the topic...!
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After speaking to Debt collectors staff, apparently the original Penalty Notice(s) were sent to our old address (because they said that was the address held by DVLA).
We sold that property & moved to New address on 16 Dec 2022.
So to confirm the bailiff gave you the exact address pre=December 2022? I ask because I wouldn't trust them with anything.
Then the key is to call Manchester parking and try and find out what they're up to.
And let's have another bit of info: the PCN number.
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With the VRM you can check here to see what date the last V5 was issued. https://vehicleenquiry.service.gov.uk/
Quite likely it hasn't been sold on yet so might tell you if a new V5 was issued.
If you review the thread you'll see we've already been there done that got the t-shirt...
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With the VRM you can check here to see what date the last V5 was issued. https://vehicleenquiry.service.gov.uk/
Quite likely it hasn't been sold on yet so might tell you if a new V5 was issued.
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So why would Manchester City Council send the original documents in October 2023 to our old address!?!?!?
Only they know ! Probably office mismanagement.
Do a quick enquiry on the DVLA webpage for Check VED. Keep the printout as it is second proof of V5 update.
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No other dealings with Manchester
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Maybe a request to DVLA for details of who and when your details were requested since 2022.
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Have you had any prior driving/parking interaction with Manchester? Even a parking permit?
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Call the trader and ask them to take a picture of the name and address on the logbook and email it to you.
Or call DVLA and ask them what the name and exact address are.
Something is wrong as in October last year Manchester will have sent the PCN and subsequent letters to this address. But you got nothing. It is possible the council made a mistake.
The trader has kindly emailed me the V5C !
It shows our NEW address and has done since 19 Dec 2022
Without posting the front page which shows name & address (which you say not to do :D ) https://imgur.com/a/IFMsqbw
I attach a copy of the V5C - the date 2022 is clearly at the bottom, and I have a copy of the front page showing our NEW address
So why would Manchester City Council send the original documents in October 2023 to our old address!?!?!?
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Call the trader and ask them to take a picture of the name and address on the logbook and email it to you.
Or call DVLA and ask them what the name and exact address are.
Something is wrong as in October last year Manchester will have sent the PCN and subsequent letters to this address. But you got nothing. It is possible the council made a mistake.
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When posting documents it's only necessary to redact your own name and address. Please make sure that you leave everything else visible. Especially dates, times, reference numbers, vehicle registration, locations and the like. All as per the instruction in the READ THIS FIRST - **BEFORE POSTING YOUR CASE!** (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/) sticky post.
Otherwise it's like getting blood from a stone.
Was the Notice of Enforcement from Newlyn sent to you at your current address or was it forwarded from the old address?
Anyway the deadline seems to have been the 26th September and today is the 28th. So you don't have any leeway to mess around.
I'm loathe to post personal details on the web after being hacked.
Anyway you have the documents etc now.
Yes - the Newlyn document was sent to our NEW address - when I called to say it was the first notice I'd had & where had others been sent?, they became abusive & said we could be fined more for not notifying change of address - this is how I came to dig out the old email etc.
I am on 7 days grace with Newlyn pending Manchester City Council replying to my emails (for which I've had a read-receipt!) asking them why they sent documents to my OLD address, and as we never received any of them, would they re-consider the amount due.
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now you know why Stamf asked for the Reg No ;)
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When posting documents it's only necessary to redact your own name and address. Please make sure that you leave everything else visible. Especially dates, times, reference numbers, vehicle registration, locations and the like. All as per the instruction in the READ THIS FIRST - **BEFORE POSTING YOUR CASE!** (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/) sticky post.
Otherwise it's like getting blood from a stone.
Was the Notice of Enforcement from Newlyn sent to you at your current address or was it forwarded from the old address?
Anyway the deadline seems to have been the 26th September and today is the 28th. So you don't have any leeway to mess around.
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oops
https://imgur.com/a/ZCh3usr
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I'm sorry - it said to de-personalise
Anyway I think I've got the hang of this document thing now - see the new attached - THIS shows the vehicle (if you want anything else let me know - sorry)
(https://imgur.com/a/ZCh3usr)
I had a flash of inspiration & thought I'd check on the vehicle tax/MOT & it appears it's not been sold since we traded it in - well it still untaxed
Note the date the last V5C was issued on the attached - 19th Dec 2022 (we moved house on the 16th Dec!!) So it all ties in with our change of address & the email. That last V5C should have contained our NEW address.
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I'm sorry I'm struggling to load the paperwork. I've never used anything like Imgur. A friend has helped me -- please try this link
https://imgur.com/a/0m64aby[/img]
You're not struggling to blank out all the details though!
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I'm sorry I'm struggling to load the paperwork. I've never used anything like Imgur. A friend has helped me -- please try this link
https://imgur.com/a/0m64aby[/img]
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Who did you sell the car to and what is the VRM.
What council is the PCN from and what is the reference on the letter.
Sorry I don't see what relevance this is?
I know Stamf has already addressed this but, you should know questions are asked for a reason ie we now know you sold the vehicle to the trade. so it can be logged with dvla as "in trade" so nothing happens re the RK details on the current V5. also info can be obtained from the VRM.
so if asked please answer questions posed in order to help you.
re posting docs. it is explained quite clearly to use an external host. imgur or such like.
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The car VRM would tell us something immediately but the OP is reluctant to help himself. We haven't even seen the enforcement notice.
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With bailiffs now instructed, the only avenue open to you now is to submit an Out-of-Time Statutory Declaration that you didn't receive the PCN, and explain why.
Meanwhile with the amount claimed, (£170) it would be prudent to pay this now, to get bailiff action to cease. Paying the bailiff has no effect whatsoever on whether your OOT SD will succeed or not, and you then won't get a visit and £235 added to the bailiff bill.
I've found forms TE7 & TE9 this morning & think I now understand:
If after the 7 days grace, they still haven't made any decision, I pay the £175 (reluctantly), but submit the Out-of-Time Statutory Declaration forms, (I assume this is free to do?) & then the Traffic Enforcement Centre decide whether I get some/all of my Penalty monies back ?
Don't even think about submitting an Out of Time Witness Statement application until you have the facts straightened out. And I for one am not happy that we have all the facts. EG the DVLA email is misleading, updating your direct debit mandate would not normally update the V5c registration doc. And we haven't seen the enforcement agent's (aka bailiff) notice.
You only have one shot at the OOT and if it's rejected it may well not be economic to get it reviewed.
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or records of it
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you sold to the motor trade - in which case they may still have the logbook with the address on as this was recent.
[/quote]
Sorry.
I've emailed the trader to ask if they still have the car/V5C
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Who did you sell the car to and what is the VRM.
What council is the PCN from and what is the reference on the letter.
Sorry I don't see what relevance this is?
We don't ask questions for fun. But you did answer one question, that you sold to the motor trade - in which case they may still have the logbook with the address on as this was recent.
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With bailiffs now instructed, the only avenue open to you now is to submit an Out-of-Time Statutory Declaration that you didn't receive the PCN, and explain why.
Meanwhile with the amount claimed, (£170) it would be prudent to pay this now, to get bailiff action to cease. Paying the bailiff has no effect whatsoever on whether your OOT SD will succeed or not, and you then won't get a visit and £235 added to the bailiff bill.
I've found forms TE7 & TE9 this morning & think I now understand:
If after the 7 days grace, they still haven't made any decision, I pay the £175 (reluctantly), but submit the Out-of-Time Statutory Declaration forms, (I assume this is free to do?) & then the Traffic Enforcement Centre decide whether I get some/all of my Penalty monies back ?
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Sorry, but I find the email response from DVLA quite odd. I would not have expected something like this, because updating the V5 address on-line is by using their software, and would not involve any personal messages like this. So can you explain this email and what gave rise to it. From what I can see there is an error at their end, because I would not expect the update of a direct debit mandate to pay VED, to generate a new V5.
This is the reply from the DVLA to the notification of change of our address - we moved Dec 2022 - as you can see they "offered" a new V5C, which I can only assume came (along with all the dozens of other things you get when you move house!), and was duly filed until we sold the car, & V5C went last month with the car - it wasn't questioned by the car retailers who we traded in with that it contained a wrong address so I can only assume it was OK.
However I've contacted DVLA last night quoting the said email & asking 1: was a new V5C issued as promised in 2023 & on what date? & 2: was the address updated & to what? & explaining why I am asking.
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Who did you sell the car to and what is the VRM.
What council is the PCN from and what is the reference on the letter.
Sorry I don't see what relevance this is?
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Sorry, but I find the email response from DVLA quite odd. I would not have expected something like this, because updating the V5 address on-line is by using their software, and would not involve any personal messages like this. So can you explain this email and what gave rise to it. From what I can see there is an error at their end, because I would not expect the update of a direct debit mandate to pay VED, to generate a new V5.
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Who did you sell the car to and what is the VRM.
What council is the PCN from and what is the reference on the letter.
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Although I cannot load the document (forgive me if I'm technologically challenged), I can confirm that I have contacted the DVLA and asked them to confirm the address on their records, and to confirm my request to change address in December 2022 was actioned, and v5c issued as promised in email of 3 January 2023.
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You've read it even though it says not to upload documents to the forum directly as there's no space?
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I have read it - the upload folder is full
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the reason you can't post the attachments is explained here..
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
which you appear not yo have read
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Attachments are not posting - it says The upload folder is full (I'm trying to post you the Notice of Enforcement - what do you want from it?)
(I've copied email below)
We had that much paperwork on change of address in Dec 2022 from that many companies, I can only assume DVLA did send the V5 as promised. Your summary is correct.
The V5 went back when the old vehicle - involved in the incident - was sold last month. I have no copy.
How could I get the address on the V5 at the time I sold it on from the DVLA?
If I can prove the DVLA never updated it as promised in their email what is the procedure then?
(as we have 7 days hold at the moment.....)
If we have still had no response, do we pay the £175 to stop action & then post Out-of-Time Statutory Declaration that DVLA didn't update as promised & we didn't receive the PCN etc, and explain why, and are eventually proved correct, do we get the £175 back ??
From: dvla.donotreply@dvla.gov.uk <dvla.donotreply@dvla.gov.uk>
Sent: 03 January 2023 14:29
To:
Subject: RE: Changing personal details for a direct debit already set up
Dear
Thank you for taking the time to update us with the new details.
I have updated the address held on the Direct Debit mandate.
You will receive a replacement V5C Registration Certificate within 10 working days.
I trust this is of assistance to you.
Do not reply to this email. If you wish to contact us again about this response, then please use the link below:
Best Regards
Nadine
DVLA Email Logo
Twitter: [www.twitter.com/dvlagovuk]@dvlagovuk | Facebook: [www.facebook.com/dvlagovuk]dvlagovuk | YouTube: [www.youtube.com/dvlagov]dvlagov
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Please post the documents you have, suitably redacted, (name & address). Please include the email from the DVLA
With bailiffs now instructed, the only avenue open to you now is to submit an Out-of-Time Statutory Declaration that you didn't receive the PCN, and explain why.
Meanwhile with the amount claimed, (£170) it would be prudent to pay this now, to get bailiff action to cease. Paying the bailiff has no effect whatsoever on whether your OOT SD will succeed or not, and you then won't get a visit and £235 added to the bailiff bill.
So.....
- December 2022 you moved house and updated your V5 on or around the date of the move.
- You received acknowledgement of the address change from DVLA
- You received a new V5 with the new address on it shortly afterwards
- When you moved house you set-up mail re-direction lasting 12 months, so from Dec 22 to Dec 23
Please confirm that is a correct summation
Are you positive you received a new paper V5C from DVLA. We have seen many cases where the OP updates the driving licence assuming this updates the V5. It doesn't !
Again, it would be best if you can get the address on the V5 at the time you sold it on from the DVLA.
It is very important you can demonstrate no delay with V5 update after your move, and its correctness, because all OOTs (Witness Statements or Statutory Declarations), are passed to the enforcing authority who can objcct to them, and inevitably do. If they do, the TEC court officer usually rejects the OOT thus forcing you to an expensive review of his decision.
Councils obtain name and address for a given vehicle registration number from the DVLA, nowhere else, so if they sent the PCN and subsequent docs to your old address, it indicates something seriously wrong with your update in 2022.
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Thanks for your input.
Sorry , yes it is £175.
The council held our old address.
If the address (which they say they got from the old vehicles v5) was wrong, then it wasn't my fault, I have notified DVLA and they acknowledged my change.
That's presumably where the "PCN, charge certificate and order for recovery?" were sent
I assume this is like the bill, reminder and final reminder?
The debt collectors are on hold following my call to them, for 7 days
It's the city Council I need to convince that notice was wrongly served and to reduce or withdraw the fine
Thanks.
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From the dates you've posted it looks like the address on the V5C at the time of the contravention was wrong - did they say what address exactly they held as you are missing PCN, charge certificate and order for recovery.
You also don't want a bailiff visit as that adds £235 (and isn't the amount demanded £175)?
There is an issue of whether they have a warrant for your current address I think.
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on Weds afternoon 18th Sep 2024 we received Notice of enforcement for £170 from debt collectors of a "Bus Lane" fine dating back almost 12 months to October 2023!
I don't doubt the offence - I was in the area & was unfamiliar with the roads.
I am just querying the fact I never had the initial paperwork & chance to pay the initial (£30?) fine
The FIRST notification I have received for said offence involving my old vehicle was from debt collectors.
After speaking to Debt collectors staff, apparently the original Penalty Notice(s) were sent to our old address (because they said that was the address held by DVLA).
We sold that property & moved to New address on 16 Dec 2022.
As old vehicle was sold last month on 15th Aug 2024 we no longer hold that V5 so cannot check details thereon.
When we moved in Dec 2022
DVLA were duly notified when we moved in 2022 and new V5 was issued - copy of my email** confirmation from DVLA was duly sent to debt collectors & City Council as proof of our notifying DVLA
Our Mail was re-directed for 12 months yet nothing received - again email confirmation duly despatched.
In either circumstance I should have had the notice from City Council (if it was promptly issued?!) following the said offence. But I have had NOTHING.
If DVLA records were not properly updated, as their email of 3 Jan (Above**), I cannot be held accountable.
And threats made by debt collectors staff stating they had saved me hundreds of pounds in fines for incorrect address records were out of order.
I feel in the circumstances that since NONE of the original paperwork has been correctly issued or received I should at least be given the opportunity to pay the bus lane fine at the original rate (which I believe could be as low as £30), and any late fees and costs be withdrawn .
I have contacted both the City council & Debt Collector asking for the costs to be reviewed & that I'd be happy to pay any initial fine, but feel the original documents were incorrectly served to my old address. To date no response.