Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Phf69 on September 26, 2024, 06:36:18 pm
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Thanks - how could I do that? I'm certainly willing to make a complaint.
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The signage in place was initially reported missing on 2 November 2023 and was replaced with incorrect signage on 8 November 2023. [we failed to notice this with even the most rudimentary of checks FOR SEVEN MONTHS] This was reported [nice euphemism, but I wonder what it means] as incorrect and changed to No Stopping Mon-Sat 7am - 7pm Except 10am-7pm parking 1 hour No return within 2 hours on 27 June 2024.
I hope other people have not just paid up
What do you think?
You could leave matters and move on. Or you could put their feet to the fire and possibly even get penalties repaid to others.
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Thanks - it's just a pity that the process had tom go this far!
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My bet: TFL won't contest it as they don't with a lot of appeals.
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Success! TFL have decided not to contest the appeal and have cancelled the PCN!
The restrictions in place O/S 485-493 Bromley Road BR1 are:
No Stopping Mon-Sat 7am - 7pm Except 7am-4pm parking 1 hour No return within 2 hours
The signage in place was initially reported missing on 2 November 2023 and was replaced with incorrect signage on 8 November 2023. This was reported as incorrect and changed to No Stopping Mon-Sat 7am - 7pm Except 10am-7pm parking 1 hour No return within 2 hours on 27 June 2024. It should be noted, as the signage in place is incorrect, maintenance is in progress to correct it.
I have been advised that the signage in place was incorrect on the date you incurred a PCN, and this has therefore been cancelled.
This is a shame as I was looking forward to the hearing! I hope other people have not just paid up!
Thanks again to all who helped!
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I have just posted my appeal - thanks to all who helped me along the way! I'll let you know whether I've been successful!
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Thanks for the advice, stamfordman and John - doing it by phone would be the best solution as it means I can remain local when I need to be making plans about moving.
Thanks too for the advice about posting letters, John.
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I may well send the letter first class signed for as I will then be certain it has arrived.
Proof of posting means it is deemed in law delivered two days later.
You can always phone after a couple of days and check it has arrived.
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You can do it by phone, and ask for a new date if you can't make it as long as you give them notice.
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Thanks for the information, John - I will ask for a personal hearing. The only problem would be that I am moving house and may be tied up with that when the hearing takes place. I'll have to think carefully about what dates to put down. I may well send the letter first class signed for as I will then be certain it has arrived.
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I am unsure whether to go for a personal hearing or not?
NEVER, ever, opt for a decision on papers. Always for a personal hearing (telephone or face-to-face). The appellany can then answer any questions from the Adjudicator and make any points he needs to raise.
Begin your wording with something like
I rely on my earlier representations and this summary...
then end with something like
There may well be further points I wish to make in response to the authority's Evidence Pack...
and not make it seem that I had researched things
I suspect most adjudicators would have expected most appellants to research things.
If you cannot submit online, the post 1st class at any post office and get a (free) proof of posting.
Keep a hard copy of the completed appeal form.
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I am now in a position to send in my appeal with the following text:
On 17/9/24 from 16:59 to 17:03 I parked in the location shown by the attached photos, outside Grillos O/S 485-493 Bromley Road BR1, where the parking sign indicated that parking was allowed for 1 hour from 10am to 7pm. Over a week later, on 26/9/24, I received a PCN saying that I had ‘stopped where prohibited on a red route’. I immediately went down to the location and took a photo of the sign – attached with date and time – showing that parking was allowed from 10am to 7pm. I appealed against the PCN and then received a rejection of the appeal on 28/10/24 with an undated photo showing that parking was only allowed from 7am to 4pm. I have also taken another photo – attached with date and time - showing that the permitted hours are still from 10am to 7pm. I am therefore appealing against the PCN as, in my opinion, a contravention did not occur according to the sign in place.
I wondered whether to include that I submitted a FOI request which came back as 'unable to answer' as I did not link it to a PCN which I didn't want to do to alert TFL as to my intentions. I also have not included the detail about a previous appeal having been successful in 2023 as there was no sign in place - do I need to point them in the direction of a wrong sign having been erected at that point? I wanted to keep my appeal clear and simple and not make it seem that I had researched things. Any thoughts, please? In addition, I am unsure whether to go for a personal hearing or not?
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https://imgur.com/9aZU2LI
https://imgur.com/5edwnIX
https://imgur.com/Qnf6fXC
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Thanks - yes, it has to be done in writing with the evidence sent along with it. I’ll post the 3 pages later tonight.
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OP, to be certain which methods are permissible you should post their Notice of Rejection of Representations pl.
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Just to reassure you, all you need to do at this stage is register your appeal. This requires nothing more than logging in, ticking a couple of boxes and then clicking send. You do not need to add chapter and verse, this comes later. If you want to choose a hearing date in January, it's your choice and one you may amend later.
You can't register an online appeal about a TFL case. Has to be done by post I think or maybe by calling the tribunal.
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Just to reassure you, all you need to do at this stage is register your appeal. This requires nothing more than logging in, ticking a couple of boxes and then clicking send. You do not need to add chapter and verse, this comes later. If you want to choose a hearing date in January, it's your choice and one you may amend later.
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Thanks - will do asap - I'm also selling a flat and buying a house atm! But I'll do it soon - they have given me 28 days to appeal.
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Fine.
But for the moment you need to focus on the appeals procedure and make sure your appeal is registered.
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Very true, HCA - I couldn't have got all the relevant information without everybody's help. Thanks to all who posted! I may well consider a formal complaint after I've got justice from TFL!
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Without reviewing the whole thread, surely all there is to it is that TFL has sent you what they have on file and you have a much more recent pic.
Which given the OP's proof is totally unacceptable. Nothing less than a proper check could IMO satisfy their duty to 'consider' representations.
I suspect that the OP will probably be OK with a cancellation, however mealy-mouthed, but if me I'd make a formal complaint. This sloppiness should be exposed and addressed.
OP, but for this forum what would you have done? Pay I suspect.
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Thanks, stamfordman. Yes, I’m just covering all bases so I don’t end up paying out £160! Yes, I’ve got my original photo date stamped.
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Thanks - I’ve just driven past and it’s the same sign I took a photo of. I’ll take another photo soon!
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Making a meal out of this. Without reviewing the whole thread, surely all there is to it is that TFL has sent you what they have on file and you have a much more recent pic.
Without reading back, did you clock this sign in your pic at the time?
But I appreciate that with TFL PCNs being so costly it is right to be wary - we wouldn't think twice with a £50 PCN.
My bet: TFL won't contest it as they don't with a lot of appeals.
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What case do they have NOW?
You saw and later photographed a 10-7 sign. How the hell is this going to be airbrushed out of history??
It's been until 4pm since Noah was a lad and is consistent with the loading bay.
There's been no change, just a c**k-up on their part, compounded by their laziness in not checking the sign in situ (both in response to your reps AND when whoever submitted their account for payment for erecting what turns out to be the wrong sign) but simply relying upon an aged picture. What the hell do they think your photo was, creative genius on your part? Are you a sign maker?
Where the plot might get even thicker is if they change it back again!
Are you local and could you take a photo again?
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Thanks - I asked for information about a change of parking restrictions in the period from 17/9/24 to 26/9/24. I doubt they can provide it and I know I have opened myself up to TFL using this information against me, but I wanted to have clarity about this prior to making an appeal. If they say no there was no change they have no case at all!
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I'm trying to find out what you asked in your FoI.
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FOI - I filled in a TFL form and am waiting for their reply. I’m sorting my photo out with a date/time stamp.
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Where's your request pl?
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I haven't received any reply yet - they said they would reply first as to whether it is a valid FOI request - within 2 working days - by tomorrow.
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Where is your FoI request pl.
Is your photo date/time stamped?
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I don't know what TFL will come up with! When I appealed first of all I was pretty convinced that I had a very good case which is why I didn't look into it as well as I could/should have. I was really surprised when they came up with that 'archive' sign to prove their point - I see that it's taken from a computer image and probably dates back quite a while. I bet they've used it again and again to argue their case about this bit of road.
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How can you be sceptical if you know that the sign you posted was in situ when you parked?
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Thanks, HCA - I'm a bit more sceptical about my chances, but all the help you, and all the others, have given me makes me feel much more positive.
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Which is showing something because the camera is more than capable of capturing the applicable traffic sign, but perhaps hasn't.
As I posted and without wanting to get too energised at this stage - in particular because the OP has not posted their FoI request as asked- but something is seriously amiss here irrespective of the PCN. (which OP will be cancelled based upon your evidence. To top and tail this do you have a photo with a time/date stamp?)
There is NO evidence for at least 12 years that anything but a 10am-4pm sign has been in the first bay. So how did the OP manage to produce a photo with a 10-7 prohibition with exactly the correct background?
Because it's there is the obvious answer.
If TfL did not actually check what sign was present before responding to the FoI then IMO someone's going to be carpeted over this.
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Thanks for the messages - I have asked for CCTV footage, but it may not be that relevant. I just don't want to miss something TFL may use against me. I'll have a think about how to go ahead with my appeal. Is a personal hearing more likely to be successful? I would still write the details on the appeal form and at that stage is it possible TFL will not contest it?
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The video won't add anything - will just show the same view as the stills although may show you parking or leaving.
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You register your appeal now.
Grounds: contravention did not occur.
I rely upon my formal representations but may submit further representations upon receipt of the authority's CCTV and evidence bundle.
You then select a date for a personal hearing(which would be by phone I suggest).
You may postpone this date if TfL's CCTV has not been received, so I suggest selecting a date in December.
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Thanks - I am certainly thinking of appealing on those grounds. That is basically what I said in my first appeal - that it did not occur. I’ll wait a little longer before finally deciding - I think I will get the CCTV footage as well as it may be useful. It’s a nuisance having to send off for it, though.
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Your PCN was issued under reg. 10.
You've made formal reps which have been rejected.
Your only choices are to pay or appeal.
Appeal grounds
The contravention did not occur...as in
The only traffic sign indicated that conditional parking was an exception to the RR prohibition and you parked in compliance with those conditions i.e. between 10am and 7pm. as evidenced by the PCN which errantly alleges a contravention occurred at 17.02.
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Thanks - what do you mean exactly?
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And register your appeal.
Contravention did not occur as per your reps.
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Ok, thanks - I will do.
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Details are in the PCN pages. I can't tell you which one because I can only see the first of four.
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Thanks so much for the summary! How do I ask for CCTV footage? The photo TFL supplied was with my appeal rejection.
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Thanks, thanks for the clarification, the visible longitudinal bay now makes it clear.
In short:
OP parked 17 Sept 2024;
GSV shows that since before 2014 the exception for BOTH bays has been 7am-4pm;
This is confirmed by GSV as recently as Sept. 2023;
However, the most recent GSV, June 2024 shows the sign is missing;
TfL's CCTV evidence does not include the first sign, it does show the second which gives the excepted period of 7am-4pm;
TfL have provided a photo of a sign in response to a FoI request, this shows a sign with 7am-4pm. However, it is undated.
The OP took a photo of the sign which they claim is now in situ on 26 Sept. This shows the excepted period is 10am-7pm.
Nobody has asked for the CCTV footage. OP, I suggest you do this now.
Also, register your appeal .
IMO, you are barking up completely the wrong tree with 'did the traffic order change'?
Try a simpler explanation.
The restriction always has been 7am-4pm.
It still is.
The sign was missing in June.
A numbskull erected the wrong sign.
Nobody checked.
The contravention was observed by CCTV so a CEO hasn't checked.
This disposes of the PCN but does not resolve TfL's FOI response.
Let's see a copy please.
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Thanks. Why is FOI not a good idea? Is that because it will give TFL the answer to back up their case? I didn't really consider that, but, if they were going to come up with that evidence anyway, it just helps me decide whether to appeal. If they cannot find anything specific to the time frame I'll definitely appeal.
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See it now, HCA?
OP - not sure an FOI was a good idea.
(https://i.imgur.com/5zChJif.jpeg)
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??
#15 shows a picture from TfL's CCTV.
The car is not in the first bay. If it was then:
There would be another bay ahead of it, but there isn't;
There would be two telephone boxes, but there aren't, there's only 1.
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I was in the first bay seen in the photo - near the phone box. The second bay is for loading only, but I’m definitely not in that.
Now the parking restrictions are 10am to 4pm with the sign I took a photo of. The sign TFL managed to come up with shows 7am to 4pm, but that is undated. I’ve asked for FOI for when the restrictions were changed.
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Seems like OP was in first bay to me.
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OP, the still from CCTV shows your car parked in the second and not first bay. The single(note, one not two as would be the case if it was the first bay) 'telephone' box is misleading and must have been placed since GSV.
Or have I misread the last post and photo?
If you were in this bay, then let's focus on its restrictions alone pl.
Which were: RR Xam-Ypm; except ? between Oam-Ppm.
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Thanks - that would be very useful. It would have to have been changed between 17/9/24 and 26/9/24 when I took my photo.
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I'll have a look for the traffic order. I had a quick Look yesterday but couldn't see anything.
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Thanks for the replies - I think my case is 50-50 as long as TFL doesn’t come up with a dated photo of a sign.
Is there any way of finding out when the parking use changed?
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TFL's pics from the video don't show the sign so all they'll have is some kind of library pic to show the adjudicator. You have your pic taken soon after. I think they won't contest this but obviously as it's an extra £80 at stake this needs thought.
(https://i.imgur.com/PQ8zS4e.jpeg)
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The bottom line is that you show a photo of your van parked in the bay with the sign present at the time. This shows parking allowed between 10am to 7pm for one hour, no return within 2 hours. One has to wonder if TfL know what signs they have themselves erected ! This is a clear case where you'll only get the correct answer at London Tribunals.
GSV June 2024 shows the sign is missing. There is a sign for the other bay as can be seen in this 2023 view.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/znKdsv3hjWekCsWn7
This clearly shows the bay delineater between the two bays of a double-dashed line perpendicular to the kerb. The 2024 view also shows this.
TfL seem to be being their usual thick and stupid selves here.
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Thanks for that information - it might well help my case. However, the sign may be seen in their black and white photos? What does the sign say, though? And why does it have different times in that position now?
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Google Maps from June this year shows the sign was missing, which may be a clue.
In September 2023 it had the sign TFL reckons was there when you parked.
They seem to have had issues with signs here:
https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/transparency/freedom-of-information/foi-request-detail?referenceId=FOI-1135-2223
I think you have a good case if the sign there now covers when you parked.
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Apologies - it is now 10am - 7pm.
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Thanks for the replies. I’ve looked at a photo I took of the other bay and that is simply a loading bay with similar restricted times. The tfl version of the sign by Grillos where I was parked shows 7am to 4pm, but when was that in force? Now it is definitely 7am to 7pm. How do I prove that was the restriction when I parked there?
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Was there another sign where your van was parked? The one in the picture says when you can park. But are they our pics or TfL pics?
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There are two bays there, delineated by the double-dashed line perpendicular to the road, in front on your van and a sign for it. What does that sign say ? I think TfL are confused here, and haven't noticed the double-dash linr.
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Just to explain my last post - the two photos of the sign show my photo taken on 26/9/24 indicating parking 7am-7pm which is what it is still now. The other sign is what TFL sent me showing parking from 7am to 4pm - this is undated. My photo is of course dated on my iPhone.
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https://imgur.com/sxhG1MB
https://imgur.com/FYaxFBG
https://imgur.com/IoLiQXr
https://imgur.com/ep5NOo4
https://imgur.com/xk9c3Pv
https://imgur.com/httPvpX
https://maps.app.goo.gl/oaNhxbTkQnNoXzbM7
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You'll need to provide some details so that they can be reviewed, please read this and post accordingly:
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
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I appealed against a PCN which was rejected. I simply sent the photo I had taken of the sign showing that parking was allowed up to 7pm and received the reply last Monday 28th. They said that they had turned down the appeal and included their photo (undated) showing that stretch did not allow parking after 4pm. Could they have changed the regulations between the date of the 'offence' (17/9/24) and when I took my photo - 26/9/24, giving a longer period to park there? That is still the case now - how do you find out if and when the regulations have been changed on a particular stretch of road?
What is the best way to proceed now - I have until a week on Monday to pay the £80 or submit an appeal to an 'Environment and Traffic Adjudicator at London Tribunals'. I am of the opinion that I'd like to appeal and will do whatever is advised on this forum.
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I'm really sorry, Incandescent, but I did not take the advice you gave - mainly because it seemed a simple case and I was too busy to go through all the steps at that time.
So I appealed and simply sent the photo I had taken of the sign showing that parking was allowed up to 7pm and only received the reply last Monday 28th. They said that they had turned down the appeal and included their photo (undated) showing that stretch did not allow parking after 4pm. Could they have changed the regulations between the date of the 'offence' (17/9/24) and when I took my photo - 26/9/24, giving a longer period to park there? That is still the case now - how do you find out if the regulations have been changed?
What is the best way to proceed now - I have until a week on Monday to pay the £80 or submit an appeal to an 'Environment and Traffic Adjudicator at London Tribunals'. I am of the opinion that I'd like to appeal and will do whatever is advised on this forum.
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@Phf69 all TFL red route PCNs can be beaten at the moment, but please read the guidance posted by Incandescent and update your post accordingly.
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Sorry, but no good without some hard facts, so please read this and update your post accordingly: -
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
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On 17/9/24 at 17:02 I was parked for a short time in a red-marked bay on Bromley Road. I received a PCN today and went down to check the signage which says 1 hour parking up to 7pm! I was not parked in the loading area marked by the lines by the phone boxes. I have taken appropriate photos and the PCN ones show my car was not parked in the loading area.
My question is should I just appeal and attach the photos? What grounds do I cite? I honestly think the operative has looked at 17:02 and thought it was past 7pm?!