Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: steamingbanana on September 24, 2024, 06:11:22 pm

Title: Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: Pastmybest on May 16, 2025, 06:11:19 pm
Not the first time the wrong contravention goes through with the TPT it does not seem to matter to them
Title: Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: H C Andersen on May 16, 2025, 04:49:34 pm
Too late now, but from the Traffic Signs Manual:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/782724/traffic-signs-manual-chapter-03.pdf

The order of precedence is to be read upwards, not downwards!

Lower panel(s) give parking place permissions;
Upper panel gives waiting restriction.

The times during which the waiting restriction applies would normally be the complement of those during which the parking permissions apply. In some cases they may not complement BUT THEY CANNOT OVERLAP!

The signs here read:
Permitted parking: 24/7!

There's no scope for a waiting restriction.

The council's interpretation is:
Waiting Fri, Sat 6pm to 8am;
Of the remaining time:
*** to *** is restricted to Goods Vehicle loading with whatever is left over unrestricted parking.

'At other times' applies to the parking restriction and has nothing to do with waiting.

In short: the use of a waiting sign in combination with a 'P' 'At other times' (whether on its own or in combination with another parking restriction) is unlawful. IMO.
Title: Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: stamfordman on May 16, 2025, 12:48:15 pm
Maybe I'm missing it but what happened to the below.

---------

From my investigation it appears a waiting restriction has been created at this location by means of Traffic Regulation Orders, The Hertfordshire (Fore Street, Hertford) (Prohibition Of Motor Vehicles) Order 2023 and The Hertfordshire (Hertford Town Centre) (Restricted Parking Zone) Order 2023, these orders cannot create a taxi rank as such but rather a waiting restriction with an exemption for taxis. Such a restriction would have to be enforced under code 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours.

In order to enforce code 45 - Parked on a taxi rank, there would need to be a taxi rank. A taxi rank is legally created under section 63 of the Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1976, however I do not believe that this has been done. In the absence of a duly appointed hackney carriage stand under the 1976 Act, there is no taxi rank so the contravention alleged on the face of the penalty charge notice cannot have occurred, it follows that the penalty charge must be cancelled.
Title: Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: cp8759 on May 16, 2025, 12:39:03 pm
There's a way to make this less likely in future cases, but I've had 4 reviews this year and I've won 3 of them. You can't expect to win 100% of the time, as all litigation carries an element of risk.
Title: Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: Incandescent on May 14, 2025, 10:53:28 pm
Quote from: cp8759 on May 14, 2025, 10:05:18 pm
Two per-incuriam decisions for the price of one, outcome (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1UE7a0HSob9v1xaIvocK8m_vye6Z38Yn9/view) and review outcome (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PZoouLzuy843ZCtgyR5QLLQehaGYMIWf/view).
So as far as TPT is concerned, councils can do what they like and ignore literally anything in the law and regulations because of this obscure Scottish decision. So "procedural impropriety", not present in the Scottish Act is now apparently dead as far as TPT is concerned when the PCN is under the TMA 2004, that introduced "procedural impr.

I find this quite astonishing and it is obvious that TPT are now captured by the councils and useless as an adjudication authority

And, of course, they hide behind the huge barrier of Judicial Review that is almost impossible for the ordinary citizen to consider. Will anybody at TPT ask themselves why the TMA 2004 introduced the additional statutory groudn of "procedural impropriety" It surely was to stamp out councils running riot with PCN enforcement.
Title: Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: cp8759 on May 14, 2025, 10:05:18 pm
Two per-incuriam decisions for the price of one, outcome (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1UE7a0HSob9v1xaIvocK8m_vye6Z38Yn9/view) and review outcome (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PZoouLzuy843ZCtgyR5QLLQehaGYMIWf/view).
Title: Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: steamingbanana on March 01, 2025, 01:00:23 pm
@cp8759

Hi, sent you a PM on this thread. Thank you.
Title: Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: cp8759 on February 14, 2025, 07:22:01 pm
Well the rejection looks like nonsense to me, they've obviously not understood the point. In any event as the discount isn't on offer it would make no sense to pay now. I will drop you a PM in case you'd like me to represent you.
Title: Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: steamingbanana on February 14, 2025, 06:37:41 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/bdLUlom.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/FspO2Aq.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/vbmxLbK.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/xAEorRh.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/nlBQ6XJ.jpeg)


I covered up some personal info and it slightly covered the wording on page 4 - so I have shown that separately in case the wording was crucial.

Many thanks
Title: Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: cp8759 on February 14, 2025, 06:04:30 pm
@steamingbanana let's see what the rejection says.
Title: Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: steamingbanana on February 14, 2025, 04:21:50 pm
Got my rejection email from East Herts. I will get around to uploading the letter to here - but it is probably as you expect.
So - I guess the next stage is to take it to tribunal
Title: Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: cp8759 on January 21, 2025, 11:10:40 pm
Quote from: steamingbanana on January 21, 2025, 05:51:53 pm
So I guess it is just a case of uploading it as an attachment then? (rather than email option)
@steamingbanana yes just put it in a PDF. As a matter of general practice you should never cut down the amount of text just because of some stupid character limit.
Title: Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: steamingbanana on January 21, 2025, 05:51:53 pm
Hi

@cp8759

I followed the online link - and it seemed like the online form was identical to the "appeal process" prior to receiving the NTO. The possible reasons for "appeal" (it didn't even mention the word "representation" which the NTO letter clearly does) did not include "The alleged contravention did not occur" - even though again this is listed on the NTO letter.

It's almost like they haven't provided me with the correct link.

I clicked on "any other reason" - which then takes me to a text box - and I copied and pasted your text - and it was too many characters.

Think I will either need to email it - or maybe try to save as a document and upload.

Thanks for your help so far though - apologies for delay - I was unwell and have only just got back to doing things that need to be done!

EDIT: Sorry - I have just re-read your previous post where you had clearly picked up on the fact that the website did not have the correct reasons for appeal (or at least the link they provided).
So I guess it is just a case of uploading it as an attachment then? (rather than email option)
Title: Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: cp8759 on January 09, 2025, 08:55:13 pm
@steamingbanana Draft reps:

Dear East Hertfordshire District Council,

I challenge liability on the ground that the alleged contravention did not occur.

From my investigation it appears a waiting restriction has been created at this location by means of Traffic Regulation Orders, The Hertfordshire (Fore Street, Hertford) (Prohibition Of Motor Vehicles) Order 2023 and The Hertfordshire (Hertford Town Centre) (Restricted Parking Zone) Order 2023, these orders cannot create a taxi rank as such but rather a waiting restriction with an exemption for taxis. Such a restriction would have to be enforced under code 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours.

In order to enforce code 45 - Parked on a taxi rank, there would need to be a taxi rank. A taxi rank is legally created under section 63 of the Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1976, however I do not believe that this has been done. In the absence of a duly appointed hackney carriage stand under the 1976 Act, there is no taxi rank so the contravention alleged on the face of the penalty charge notice cannot have occurred, it follows that the penalty charge must be cancelled.

If you are minded to reject these representations, please would you provide evidence that a taxi rank has been appointed under the 1976 Act.

Yours faithfully,


Send this online via https://www.hertsparking.co.uk/eastherts/default.aspx and take a screenshot of the confirmation page.

If they reject, at the tribunal stage we can also deploy this video I quickly put together:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VR1U0ydrCn0

To be used in conjunction with all the cases here listed under "Wrong grounds of appeal listed on website", the latest TPT one being Gouri Shanker Chandel v City of Bradford Metropolitan District Council (BQ00191-2408, 9 October 2024) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1HbqdlqIK5bHDx2iYV34PfOyx3LdqD_rS/view).
Title: Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: steamingbanana on January 09, 2025, 03:45:44 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/YEvRdjs.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/1SvZPMM.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/v30VN4d.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/TqnFpjz.jpeg)

Title: Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: cp8759 on January 08, 2025, 10:34:55 pm
@steamingbanana please post the NTO on here.
Title: Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: cp8759 on December 03, 2024, 08:07:08 pm
@steamingbanana in our experience as long as you challenge the Notice to Owner within 14 days of the date of issue, the council will reoffer the discount anyway if they reject, so there's little risk in carrying on. That being said, given the wording of paragraph 4(2) of Schedule 7 to the Traffic Management Act 2004 (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/18/schedule/7/part/1/crossheading/parking-contraventions-outside-greater-london), there's a good and arguable basis to contend the contravention cited refers to the Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1976 (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1976/57/section/63), and clearly the council has not created a hackney stand under that provision based on what we know.

It's also very likely that a formal representation on that ground would result in a failure to consider (because the person writing the rejection has no idea what they're doing).

If you let me know once you get the Notice to Owner, I can draft a formal representation for you.
Title: Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: steamingbanana on December 03, 2024, 06:26:03 pm
For completeness - this was the detail of my original "appeal" against the PCN.

(https://i.imgur.com/mobArIu.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/KVsiFNi.jpeg)
Title: Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: steamingbanana on December 03, 2024, 01:39:14 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/tABNFbX.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/KszDfV1.jpeg)
Title: Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: stamfordman on November 29, 2024, 11:32:56 am
Send a message to cp8759 as he's the expert on the law at this level. I think they are not justified in using the taxi rank contravention.
Title: Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: steamingbanana on November 28, 2024, 06:46:32 pm
Thanks for the response - There seems to be some agreement within Hertfordshire that the County are effectively the overall controller but they let the districts do the donkey work incl the enforcement.
I'm not sure I could really appeal to the tribunal based on some minor typos of their Council name.

I'm not sure I do have much chance - but it is hugely frustrating that it clearly appears to be unclear signage - given my very minimal evidence of going back a week later and seeing a whole street of ticketed cars - I cannot really believe all the users of Hertford Town centre are that desperate to "take a chance on free parking" - so as per me, they clearly missed the fairly minimal signage of a "part time" taxi rank - and the clear disparity (difference) to every other taxi Rank in Hertford at present or in the past!

Anyone else have any ideas of whether it's work me taking it to tribunal?

Thanks.
Title: Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: Phantomcrusader on November 22, 2024, 06:27:16 pm
The PCN is issued by East Herts DC but the TRO is made by Hertfordshire County Council and the CPE designation order  (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2004/3310/introduction/made)is awarded to Hertfordshire County Council. Therefore, who is the enforcement authority? The PCN implies it's East Herts but the legal documents point towards the county council.

If it is East Herts. Should the PCN not give the council's formal name which is East Hertfordshire District Council rather than the colloquial East Herts? The council's constitution identifies them as

Quote
2.2 The Constitution

2.2.1 This document, and all its appendices, is the Constitution of the East Hertfordshire District Council.
There is also the matter of the code 45 contravention description not complying with Annex B to the sec of state's guidance (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/civil-enforcement-of-parking-contraventions/guidance-for-local-authorities-on-enforcing-parking-restrictions#annex-b-contravention-codes-for-civil-parking-enforcement-england-wide) which says to use this description
"45Stopped on a taxi rank.‘Stopped’ may be varied to ‘waiting’."

I think it is a Taxi Rank if taking the TSRGD 2016 definition into account: “taxi rank”- an area of carriageway reserved for use by taxis waiting to pick up passengers"
Title: Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: steamingbanana on November 22, 2024, 05:18:56 pm
After nearly two months - the response to my appeal came back - and disappointingly my PCN has not been cancelled - there wasn't really much details as to why it wasn't cancelled - just reiteration of where I parked and my responsibility as a motorist to check all signs.

"I have investigated the circumstances raised in your correspondence and have made the decision to not cancel your notice. The reasons for my decision are set out below, along with the options available to you at this stage.
The bay in which you parked operates as a taxi rank Friday and Saturday 6pm – 8am. This is stated on the sign. At other times the bay offers limited parking. As the bay has a dual restriction, there is no requirement to mark the carriageway with the words ‘taxi bay’, motorists must rely upon the sign adjacent to the bay in use.
The Restricted Parking Zone is indicated as required by the Department of Transport and stipulated in the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions. Local Authorities are required to adhere to these Regulations when signing on-street parking restrictions."

So I guess now it's a case of paying up?

Or do I take to tribunal - with a beefed up defence from the similar case to mine (also on this forum) which was defeated at tribunal?

I do feel that the fact that when I returned a week later and there were so many cars with PCNs on the same street/within the same taxi rank does make me believe that the signage is inadequate or the council are misleading/trapping motorists into getting PCNs.

Any help much appreciated.

Thanks
Title: Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: stamfordman on September 30, 2024, 09:37:04 pm
Try this:

I am challenging the PCN on two counts.

First, I have been a regular visitor to Hertford and have been used to parking in limited stay bays and was not aware that anything had changed. I am aware of bays demarcated for specific uses including taxis and disabled drivers where I am accustomed to seeing road legends for such bays but there were none in this bay. 

Second, I have done some research and see that you have used a traffic order under the Road Traffic Regulation 1984 Act rather than designating a hackney stand under the Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) 1976 Act. So a correct contravention for waiting on the yellow line is 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours. The contravention alleged of "Parked on a taxi rank" did not occur because there is no taxi rank made under the correct order.

I invite you to consider my challenge and look forward to your early cancellation of the PCN.

Title: Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: steamingbanana on September 30, 2024, 05:30:55 pm
Hi - just bumping this requesting final wording for any appeal please.

Is it just a case of putting words together along the lines of the "said contravention" did not occur as the space has not been correctly regulated?

Sorry - don't know the full procedure. I didn't want to make it too much "layman speak" if what is required is "technical".

Many thanks
Title: Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: steamingbanana on September 28, 2024, 10:29:44 pm
I found this from a neighbouring Hertfordshire Council - Dacorum - it's from 2019 but I guess it is still relevant -

https://democracy.dacorum.gov.uk/ieDecisionDetails.aspx?ID=1325

Of particular interest:

equired procedure for creation of new taxi ranks



There are two procedures that need to be followed to effectively create new taxi ranks. The use of a Traffic Regulation Order under the provisions of the Road Traffic Act 1984, ss32-37, establishes restrictions to who can use the location, preventing other vehicles from parking in the ranks, and giving the Council the ability to take enforcement action when this happens. This is the most significant part of the overall process. Project Centre has been approached for a quote in regards to this process, and their proposal document is attached.



In addition to this there is a set process under the Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1976, s63 which gives the Licensing Authority control over the stand, allowing enforcement to take place against misuse of the rank. Before appointing any stand for hackney carriages, the Council must give notice to the police and must also arrange a public notice of the proposal to appear in the local newspaper if any written objections or representations are received within twenty-eight days of the notice, these have to be taken into consideration.



So - what we're saying here is that there is no evidence that East Herts Council have done the second bit?
Is all that is required from that the "notification" in the local press? If so - then it might be that the did do this?
Whether I could find it or not is doubtful?

I found this:

https://publicnoticeportal.uk/notice/traffic-and-roads/654b6b6bfb9e9390728cc587

This also confirms that this was a change to make the temporary arrangements in place since May 2022 permanent

I read something within those temporary arrangements that this so called taxi rank I parked in was intended as a "waiting area for taxis before joining the taxi rank (Which I included GSV links to previously)" - this taxi rank is out of view of the "waiting area" - but a paper from the local town council showed that "Taxi Marshalls" were present - so presumably to alert taxi drivers that they can join the rank around the corner - if said Taxi Marshalls were present when I parked - I may have bee pre-warned.

Anyway - it's getting late - but many thanks to you all for your help.



Title: Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: steamingbanana on September 28, 2024, 10:13:34 pm
I had a read of the Parking Order kindly posted - assuming this is the correct order - and it does seem to be - it does seem strange that the wording of the order doesn't match the restrictions shown on the sign.

"Taxi clearways in Fore Street – effective 6:00pm to 8:00am Monday to Saturday inclusive."

Whereas the sign only shows "no waiting except taxis on Fri and Sat nights"

a more detailed description is at sec 7.(2) on page 11 -

Taxi Clearways as identified and shown on the Restricted Parking Zone plan and detailed
in the key to that plan as taxi clearways may be used for the stopping and waiting of taxis
during the hours of 6:00pm to 8:00am Monday to Saturday inclusive for the purpose of
plying for hire and dropping off or picking up of passengers.


All in all - if EHC have indeed used the wrong act for a "Taxi clearway" or "taxi rank" - would someone offer some guidance as to the wording of my appeal of the PCN please?

Many thanks
Title: Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: steamingbanana on September 28, 2024, 10:01:26 pm
these are the taxi ranks and loading bay just around the corner from my "bay" - for reference as to how I expect a bay to be marked - so the "inconsistent" marking in my bay is what led me to not fully understand it may have had parking restrictions.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/XbrQkef2nMzyNxKX7

https://maps.app.goo.gl/nFVq8mnQUsEhfUAT6

Title: Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: steamingbanana on September 28, 2024, 09:58:40 pm
Hello everybody. Firstly, I want to thank the experts on here for all the info included in the last 8 posts or so.
I didn't know I could search for the CEO pictures from my PCN details.

In terms of "real photos" - I can only apologise I didn't - and that I did indeed "refer" to the GSV pics as well as the pics from the "similar case" from Oct 2023. I had not had the time to revisit the scene since the date of the PCN (Fri 20th).

So to answer other questions:

Why did I park there?

As I stated in my rather rambling opening post - I have lived locally for many years - albeit I haven't visited the town centre much in the last 5 years or so - I knew that during Covid major temporary changes were made with regard to social distancing for pedewstrians - so all park zones became extended pavements - but I assumed that post-Covid things had returned to "normal" (pre Covid) and the space I parked in always used to be limited stay (30 mins) during the day and then "unlimited during the evening". In addition, I have become accustomed to the "normal" markings that the local Council have for loading bays/disabled bays (both with Painted signs on road alongside the markings) - and taxi ranks being yellow painted lines and yellow painted words on the road) - I parked for around 20 minutes - and when I returned - I was "dumbfounded" as to why I had even got a PCN. I didn't have the foresight there and then to take any photos - especially as a doorman in the pub opposite warned me if I stayed any longer the CEOs would come around again and ticket me again (I had removed the PCN from my windscreen to read it). As it happens - they did reappear within seconds of that warning. I did "ask" where the taxi rank was and they walked off and ignored me.

So - I'm not sure how relevant the following is given the expert posts posted above - but here goes. I did revisit the scene again last night - exactly a week after my PCN - I had to park quite a way away - and as I approached on foot I saw a CEO issuing a ticket - by the time I arrived they had gone - but there were six cars with PCNs - five of them parked in "my" bay - and one on the other side of the road.
In addition - there were temporary signs attached to the posts on the pavement - small signs - not much bigger than A4 size - warning of gulley cleaning and no parking regardless of what the signs allowed!!

I took photos of all the PCNs issue - as well as some of the signs - I also confirmed that yes there is now a single yellow line marked in the bay - and going back to the answer to "why I parked there" - again I was ignorant of the road markings -

I meant to take photos of how the council do mark Loading Bays and taxi ranks - but I forgot to walk around that way - I'll try to link to GSV (hopefully they have not changed!) - but it's probably irrelevant anyway - because this was a "shared bay" - so in theory the rules do allow the council to use simple white markings and no writing on the road - despite the fact that the % of time that it is "free parking" is probably less than 50% of the week - hey ho.

If any of these photos are irrelevant and clogging up the forum - I'm happy if an admin deletes them - if that is possible.

My only point is that it seems obvious that the bay is "misleading" if it generates so many PCNs - and regardless of the outcome of my case, I am intending sending an FOI to EHC requesting info as to how many PCNs have been issued since they changed the use of the bay. Be interesting reading.

(https://i.imgur.com/sGNYj1e.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/GXD2rKB.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/zB4LorQ.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/Ursyz6z.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/oWHuBWr.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/mnMYhox.jpg)

Title: Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: stamfordman on September 27, 2024, 11:46:10 am
Quote from: cp8759 on September 26, 2024, 07:01:45 pm
There is every chance that the council has simply made a traffic order under the 1984 Act rather than designating a hackney stand under the 1976 Act (it is unlikely the council officers will have read the 1976 Act), and if that's the case then as @sx4 points out the contravention should be 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours, if that is right then the contravention alleged of "Parked on a taxi rank" did not occur because there is no taxi rank.

I was going to find the pics but you beat me to it and then look for the order and this looks promising as the council has indeed used the 1984 act to create what it wrongly calls a 'taxi clearway' in this RPZ.

(https://i.imgur.com/kABkUxC.png)

Full order:

https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/TRO/East%20Hertfordshire/Permanent-Fore-Street-Restricted-Zone-and-prohibition-of-motor-vehicles-TRO-2023.pdf

Map:

(https://i.imgur.com/lr6lqpt.png)
Title: Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: Incandescent on September 27, 2024, 10:55:23 am
This thread shows the importance of real photos of the alleged contravention. GSV of 2023 shows no yellow line, but the CEO's photo does. So in the months between the GSV camera van coming along in May 2023, and the date of the contravention, the council have painted a yellow line to support the yellow "No Waiting" sign.
Title: Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: mickR on September 27, 2024, 08:16:47 am
looks like the road markings have changed since latest GSV and what appears to be a SYL added but signage is the same.
in 2029 signs were different and taxi bay was on other side of road.
Title: Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: cp8759 on September 26, 2024, 07:01:45 pm
Well there's quite a few issues here.

Firstly @steamingbanana the thread you referenced was unsuccesful in no small part because @spinningfish represented himself, I've won a case in very similar circumstances in Darren Armitage v Lancashire County Council (LQ00155-2208, 2 September 2022) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1BEV_Moen0XVkiCIPq_N8yIJmfKAZ-625/view).

However it seems to me that the situation has, contrary to your opening post, materially changed:

(https://i.imgur.com/Q0CJBn1.jpeg)

There appears to be a single yellow line next to your car, which makes this case different to spinningfish's one.

The more promising aspect is whether this is a taxi rank at all, which is an angle well worth exploring. A taxi rank is not created by means of a Traffic Regulation Order made under section 1 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/27/section/1), instead a taxi rank is created under section 63 of the Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1976 (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1976/57/section/63).

There is every chance that the council has simply made a traffic order under the 1984 Act rather than designating a hackney stand under the 1976 Act (it is unlikely the council officers will have read the 1976 Act), and if that's the case then as @sx4 points out the contravention should be 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours, if that is right then the contravention alleged of "Parked on a taxi rank" did not occur because there is no taxi rank.

All that being said it would be helpful to have some factual background: why did you park there, how long was your car there, and why did you think it would be OK to park there?
Title: Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: sx4 on September 26, 2024, 06:44:16 pm
Surely that signage doesn’t state it’s a taxi rank but a no waiting restriction after 6pm to 8am so an 01 not a 45 contravention would be appropriate and only with an accompanying yellow line.
If the main taxi rank is close by this space could be used as a feeder to main rank but once again not marked correctly as a taxi rank or even without yellow line an 01 contravention could not be enforced unless a restricted parking zone.
Title: Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: steamingbanana on September 26, 2024, 06:05:27 pm
Thank you. But I am concerned that the previous very similar case failed at tribunal with the adjudicator seemingly happen that the markets were ok.
Title: Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: Incandescent on September 26, 2024, 05:52:37 pm
The absence of a single yellow line is in your favour, as by its absence you were not prompted to go and look at the sign for the restriction.
Title: Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: steamingbanana on September 26, 2024, 03:10:00 pm

(https://i.imgur.com/Ji2UR0d.png)


(https://i.imgur.com/NmpQEAU.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/zXN81eh.jpeg)


Thanks for your help again John UK

Hopefully the above works ok.

Title: Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: John U.K. on September 26, 2024, 01:07:42 pm
Please follow the instructions in the Read this First sticky (link in Reply#1)
Title: Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: steamingbanana on September 26, 2024, 01:02:18 pm
Hi - can an administrator help me out please - I try to upload docs (the PCN) - and get the following message:

"The upload folder is full. Please try a smaller file and/or contact an administrator."  @cp8759 

My original comment that I wrote has also disappeared - but I did keep a copy - so this is my original response:

Hi, Many thanks for responses to date.
To answer the question about why I didn't look at the sign - despite parking in a "bay" - that was more or less covered in my first post - which was a bit of a ramble - and I forgot to summarise in post 3 - after my new thread had been set up - basically the reason was my understanding that normal "ok to park bays" in the town I have lived near for many years were painted white - Taxi ranks are painted yellow with the word TAXIS on the road in yellow - and loading bays and Disabled bays tend to have the words on the road - or if not - loading bays tend to be "single space bays" - so the pavement side is very close by - basically there as you open your driver's door.

I will try to upload the PCN now - albeit I had problems uploading photos of the pavement sign the other day.

Thanks again,
Title: Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: Incandescent on September 25, 2024, 10:57:04 pm
I think you're right, so the OP has a valid appeal argument, but I suspect will only see this tested at adjudication.
Title: Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: stamfordman on September 25, 2024, 06:54:17 pm
I think the bay must have a standard 75mm yellow line to indicate a part-time waiting restriction. The case that was lost argued for a 200mm line but isn't that used for a no-stopping clearway.
Title: Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: Incandescent on September 25, 2024, 06:00:39 pm
Quote
When I parked up I left my car and walked forward – i.e. I did not walk past or even see the sign.
You parked on what GSV shows is a clearly marked bay, yet did not go to look for, and read, the sign for the bay, why ?
Title: Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: steamingbanana on September 25, 2024, 05:13:07 pm
Firstly – apologies for not reading the newbie guide to setting up a new thread – and secondly thanks to John UK and CP8759 for their advice and for setting up this new thread.
As advised, the link to a very similar situation is below.
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/east-herts-council-code-45-parked-on-a-taxi-rank-fore-street-hertford/

The Google Street view is as follows:

https://maps.app.goo.gl/uQJB82nwPtYHGSKF8

I was parked in the same position (albeit I was parked about two feet forward, right up to the end of bay white line) as the small Citroen car. The pavement restriction sign is behind (where I parked) and just behind the van that is parked in the GSV photo. When I parked up I left my car and walked forward – i.e. I did not walk past or even see the sign.

My first post in this thread explains my circumstance in some detail. In order to summarise it slightly, I received a PCN from East Herts Council – code 45 – parking in a taxi rank – or violating the “no waiting” restriction.
I do not have a blue badge – so that is the only difference between my case and the previous poster’s case that I linked to above.
I would welcome some advice as to how I can successfully appeal – given that the previous poster lost at tribunal. I am still somewhat surprised that the tribunal did not find that the lack of a yellow line in the parking bay (alerting people to the restrictive element of the mixed use bay) did not constitute it being a good reason to quash the original PCN – and clearly if that is indeed the case (i.e. no yellow line is mandatory – even though the guidance I pointed to in post 1 of this thread suggested that such a shared use bay “should” have a yellow line) – then I would have little chance of successfully appealing.
However, I am open to your expert opinions and advice.
I tried to update a photo of the restriction sign previously and got an error message saying “uploads full/file too large/please contact administrator” – and it also seemingly lost all of my message that I had typed out – so this is a second attempt – if my other message miraculously reappears and this looks like a duplicate – I apologise.  However, the relevant sign is exactly the same as the photos provided in the previous thread (linked to above) – a triple sign – no waiting Fri&Sat 6pm-8am (except taxis) on top, Loading restrictions (Mon-Sat 8am-6pm) in the middle, and Parking at other times.

At the moment, I don’t have access to a scanner – so no PCN as yet. Will endeavour to upload tomorrow.
I also don’t have any Council photos – as I have only recently received the PCN on my windscreen – but I was hoping to get some speedy advice so that if necessary I could take advantage of the discount period.
Title: Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: cp8759 on September 25, 2024, 12:54:50 am
@steamingbanana I've split this topic out because we don't hijack other people's threads no matter how similar a case might be.

You need to add all the information John U.K. has listed above.
Title: Re: Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: John U.K. on September 24, 2024, 08:06:31 pm
Please to have a read of
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/

and start your own thread (forum rule is one case per thread), and post there

a brief account of the circumstances, revising what you have written here,
both sides of the unredacted PCN,
any council photos,
and a GSV link to the location.

By all means reference this thread with a link to it in your own thread.
Title: Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: steamingbanana on September 24, 2024, 06:11:22 pm
Dear All - I'm a newbie on here - and only found this website due to the fact that I've managed to get a PCN for exactly the same reason as the OP on this thread - and I notice that their tribunal was lost just a few months ago.

The only salient difference in my case is that I am not a blue badge holder.

The OP's original photos are still valid and relevant - nothing has changed other than I parked there and got a PCN - I am only at the stage of the PCN being on my windscreen when I returned from a short walk away from my car.

I have lived locally for many years - and prior to Covid, this particular space used to be a short term free parking space during the day - limited to 30 mins parking (from memory) - after a certain time (630pm I think) it became free parking for no limit until the next morning. And it was marked with the standard white dotted lines around the spaces.

So fast forward to a recent Friday night. I was looking for a parking space - came across this free bay - no road markings to suggest it was loading bay or disabled (I am used to these words being painted on the road) - so I parked up  - and went about my business - I returned around 20 mins later to find to my astonishment said PCN - code 45, parking on taxi rank. I was stupified - and was looking around for road markings to show this - especially as I believed that the town's taxi rank was around 300 metres away - around a couple of corners. That's when I saw the upright sign on the pavement. So, yes, just like the OP I did not check this before parking - but having read the advice given on the OP's thread - I would adhere to the belief that there should be some sort of "warning" to show that the shared space is "prohibited" at certain points - instead it seems the road markings are set out at the "no prohibition" level - and it is done to the driver to look out for signs without being warned to do so.

Anyway - I did a bit of Googling and found similar "guidance" on signs to the previous advice -

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5c78f895e5274a0ebfec719b/traffic-signs-manual-chapter-03.pdf

I assume the above is "up to date" - and the bit that seemed to be relevant to my case is:

"13.18 Parking and loading bays with prohibition of waiting and loading at
certain times
13.18.1.  Where a parking or loading bay does not operate continuously, and there is a
prohibition of waiting at certain times (e.g. during peak hours), a multi‑panel sign (see
Figure 13-51 and Figure 13-52) should be used. This generally comprises either two or three
panels depending on whether there is a prohibition of loading. The upper panel is yellow and
gives details of the waiting restrictions. It is based on the sign described in 13.4.8. The centre
panel, if any, will include details of the loading prohibition as described in 13.4.12. The lower
panel gives details of the parking or loading conditions. It may indicate limited waiting, permit
parking, an electric vehicle recharging point, disabled badge holder parking, pay and display
parking, voucher parking, a loading bay, shared‑use parking or disc zone parking. It has the
same design as one of the signs described previously in this section and therefore may include
a multi‑panel shared‑use bay. Examples of parking place signs that also indicate waiting
and loading prohibitions are shown in Figure 13-51. The time periods for parking and for the
prohibition of waiting should not overlap.
13.18.2.  The sign should be used with a parking bay appropriate to the lower panel, together
with a single yellow line running through the bay to indicate the prohibition of waiting and, if
appropriate, single kerb marks to indicate a prohibition of loading. Where the single yellow
line continues beyond the bay, and the upright signs indicate different waiting restrictions, a
transverse mark referred to in 13.4.4 is not required. The end of the bay is sufficient to indicate
a change in the restrictions. Examples of upright signs and road markings are shown in
Figure 13-52."

So 13.18.2 states the sign "should be used with parking bay.......single yellow line....etc"

So - does "should" constitute "must"?

Clearly the previous tribunal seemed to rule that the yellow line was not "required" - so based on that can I form an argument to win an appeal?

Having read the previous thread above, I guess that user @cp8759 is someone useful on these forums.

I don't know the protocols of "alerting" that user to my thread - I might try to PM if I don't get any responses within the next few days.

Happy to get the help of anyone on this forum though - and most grateful.