Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Velina on August 04, 2023, 10:32:12 pm
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I won. Newham refund me all money.
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Outcome (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1s_J5PY_NGvSC7XY5Js49qj93YO9faqKg).
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OP--let cp deal with your appeal--the Council's case is an absolute shambles and they have been wholly unreasonable in dealing with you.
Mike
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@cp8759 How much will cost me?
I'm not going to charge you any fees if that's what you're asking.
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@cp8759 How much will cost me?
Have a look at the 'small print' at the end of every message from CP8759
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@H C Andersen the only photo evidences which I have access are about the ticket for parking on single yellow lane. I don't have any documents or photos that my car was lifted probably because it is never gone to compound parking. They lifted it and dropped it back at the same place and never dropped it to compound. Basically when I saw they lifted the car, it was in the air,not at the platform, unfortunately I don't have photo of my car in the air because I was running to this guy (I live on the second floor). I asked him to drop it back but he refused because I had to pay. After a long conversation I paid the whole amount (65 ticket and 200 lifting) over his phone and he dropped it back straight away. No paperwork at all. All this happened in from of my home. The only photo I have is my car on the platform.
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@cp8759 How much will cost me?
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@Velina would you like me to represent you at the tribunal?
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You may wish to redact your name & address from the 1st page of the NoR.
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Just register your appeal.
f)that the penalty charge or other charge paid to secure the release of the vehicle exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case;
(g)that there has been a procedural impropriety on the part of the enforcement authority.
'..the OBCEO removed the vehicle to a safe location at the vehicle pound.Please refer to the CEO's photographic evidence enclosed that support this.'
Either they're correct and the 'enclosed' photos support this or you have not told us the truth and your vehicle was recovered from the vehicle pound.
So, pl post these supporting photos so we can put this issue to bed.
If you want to rattle their cage you could write back and request a copy of the receipts issued by the pound when the council claim your vehicle was claimed. But post the photos enclosed with the NOR and only those so we don't get confused.
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And by the way they wrote my name wrong if that matters.
I attach the last 2 pages.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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I have received letter from Newham. They rejected my request.They said when the car's wheels are off the ground it means it's been lifted and I have to be charged. As far as I remember when I checked in their website, it says the car wheels should be on the platform not just off the ground. I'm attaching photos of the letter.
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So they have until 18 October to reply.
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It was delivered on 23.08.
About the complaint word, I'm not professional and that's my first time here making that kind of representation, also the main point of the letter is in it, so I hope not to be fatal :) .
All I've done so far is thanks to your help guys, so thank you very much.
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When does the tracking number show that the letter was received by the council?
By the way you shouldn't have used the word "complaint", it's a representation, which is quite different to a complaint. That's unlikely to be fatal as the substance of what you sent is a representation (and the subject matter cannot be dealt with as a complaint anyway), but still it's worth pointing this out for anyone reading this thread in the future.
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Since I didn't get any paperwork, I was advised, here in the group, to send a complaint letter to Newham parking via post. So I did that, the proof of postage is the receipt from the post office with tracking number. I've sent it 1st class delivery.
I'm attaching screenshots of the letter.
Also I've printed the proof of payment and the actual PCN, and attached them to the complaint letter.
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Depends whether they were formal representations and have been considered as such.
In a removal case you can only have formal representations.
However, it would be useful to see a copy of the representations. Also, did you get proof of postage?
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Depends whether they were formal representations and have been considered as such.
What did you send, to whom, how and when?
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Hi, again. I've sent the letter on 22.08. I haven't heard anything from Newham yet. In how many days time they have to respond me?
56 from when they receive the letter.
Assuming the letter was served two days later, they have until 18 October 2023 to serve a response.
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Hi, again. I've sent the letter on 22.08. I haven't heard anything from Newham yet. In how many days time they have to respond me?
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If you send that photo, IMO the council will respond with the car was on the truck and they were entitled to tow. In that they would be right. But what they cannot do is make things up like releasing the car there and then for the payment it does not work that way no removal no charge simples
I would say that if they lifted the car they're entitled to charge, we've had the discussion before that when a council relocates a car to a different place on the road they could technically charge (but don't because they've not read the regs).
What they 100% cannot do is charge the tow fee and not provide any paperwork with the rights of appeal, that's an instant win and I don't see how we could possibly lose this one at the tribunal.
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If you send that photo, IMO the council will respond with the car was on the truck and they were entitled to tow. In that they would be right. But what they cannot do is make things up like releasing the car there and then for the payment it does not work that way no removal no charge simples
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You have this photo that you posted on facebook:
(https://i.imgur.com/mJQbnCS.jpg)
Send them this photo and the online payment screenshot, that's more than enough.
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Unfortunately I don't have photo of my car in the air. To take a picture wasn't my first thought. Here is screenshot of the payment to Newham council.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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As soon as I don't have representation paperwork how I can appeal it?
You can send them a letter in the post to:
L B Newham Parking Correspondence
PO Box 71575
London
E6 9LY
Send 1st class (not signed for) from a post office, and get proof of postage.
If you paid on the phone you must have a transaction on your bank statement showing that you paid £265 in total, please confirm.
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Just adding another excerpt from the Statutory guidance...relevnt to the lack of information regarding how to challenge the removal.
On the release of a vehicle from a clamp or the vehicle pound, the authority must [footnote 26] immediately inform the vehicle owner or person in charge of the vehicle about their right to make representations and their subsequent right to appeal against representations that are rejected.
The vehicle will already have been issued a PCN that sets out the grounds on which representations can be made. However, the Secretary of State recommends that the notice about representations against the immobilisation or removal also gives full particulars of the grounds, procedure and time limit for representations. This is particularly important when credit or debit payments are made over the telephone.
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HCA's draft can be sent in reference to the PCN and pseudo removal.
And IMO should if only to maintain deadlines for reps to be made.
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Whilst i do not disagree with a complaint, you should make representations to the council that they have committed a procedural impropriety. you want your money back and getting that through the complaints procedure is very long winded
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OP, this is a procedural matter and you should treat it as such. Just set out the key issues, nothing to do with the contravention which by your own account was committed because this would be a distraction.
Write to the council. These are not representations as such because you are outside this framework. There is no provision in law or, I'll bet, in council procedures for a CEO or anyone to accept payment in these circumstances. A vehicle once removed must be delivered to a car pound and only there may the owner recover their vehicle on payment and require a receipt.
So for the moment IMO the issue is what happened at the location.
Apparently you don't have a receipt but your bank records would show a payment comprising the discount plus removal fee. And who is the payee(the person paid) according to your bank account?
One step at a time, but quick steps!
Do you have a record of this payment and to whom was it made?
Once we've (hopefully) established the start of this part of the paper trail then you can write to the council...
On 31 July I was issued with a PCN, copy enclosed which I noticed as I observed your operatives removing my car.
I met the operatives as they were in the process of lifting my vehicle(its wheels were off the ground but not yet placed on the removal vehicle). They demanded full payment of £265(£200 and £65 for the removal fee and penalty respectively) to return my car. Under protest I phoned ****** and paid £265 to a/c *********, copy of this transaction from my account enclosed. Your operatives did not provide me with any paperwork.
Given that your operatives were not authorised to demand payment, that no payment was due because the vehicle should have been returned to the ground as it had not been placed on the removal vehicle and that proper procedures regarding receipt and formal notification as to my legal options were not followed then the council has a serious problem. The degree to which I need to be involved with the resolution of your problems will depend upon your response to this complaint.
Please acknowledge receipt by return.
Yours
is my approach.
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I just noticed that there is no legislation at the top of the PCN which governs the service and enforcement of the PCN. Not sure whether this is mandatory or not, but it seems odd.
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For reference from Sec of Stat Statutory Guidance
If a driver returns to the vehicle whilst immobilisation or removal is taking place, then it is recommended that the operation is halted, unless the clamp is secured or the vehicle has all its wheels aboard the tow truck. If immobilisation or removal is halted, the PCN should still be enforced.
Can be found in on street activities hre
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/civil-enforcement-of-parking-contraventions/guidance-for-local-authorities-on-enforcing-parking-restrictions#on-street-activities
Recommended not must release but as with all statutory guidance, an authority can and should be tasked with explaining why they ignored and show good reason to.
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OP----did you take a photo with the car in the air?
I presume you have details of the payment by phone and the time of payment?
Newham have really mucked this up so stick with it, there are so many procedural improprieties it's laughable.
The £200 represents the lift and tow so the latter part didn't happen.
You are in a prejudicial situation because the onboard CEO did not give you appeal papers.How would you know there are recourse procedures?
They are supposed to stop the lift if the car is in mid-air if the driver asks them to put the vehicle back on the carriageway.
Mike
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As soon as I don't have representation paperwork how I can appeal it?
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If you can prove payment then this is simples because they are not allowed to take the vehicle if you return before it is on the truck so in the air they should put it down and leave not charging you as that is not allowed
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The car wasn't dropped in compound parking. It was in the air when I saw them, and while I spoke with the guy who lifted it, the driver of the truck put in on the truck's platform. I asked the guy to drop it back and I'll move it straight away but he said I have to pay first. I was in rush so even I wasn't happy to pay, I paid £265 over the phone and ask how I can appeal. So I paid and got no paperwork at all but got my car dropped back. I don't have this representation sheet and so on.
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I haven't received any paperwork apart of the PCN. When I got out to speak with the council guy, the car was in the air, so basically the truck has just picked it up, but my car wheels weren't on the truck platform.
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Can you get a screenshot from your online banking showing that you paid £265?
Also, can you please post the back of the PCN?
This should be straightforward in principle, even though it might be a bit of a mess from a procedural standpoint. In essence by failing to give you the appeal paperwork there and then, the council has committed a procedural impropriety.
The only issue might be if the council claims it's not a removal case, but the amount you paid proves that it is.
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Velina, it is not entirely clear to me what occurred: -
He said I have to pay the fine now and they will drop it back. Fine was £265 (200 for the lift and 65 ticket). He also said it pay and appeal procedure so I can appeal after I pay. I paid everything over the phone while he was there. I didn't received any receipt or protocol for the payment and the time when my car was lifted and dropped.
So was the car not taken to the pound ? Normally when collecting a car after it has been removed to the pound, one is issued with paperwork (documents), that (1) gives a receipt for payment, and (2) the appeal arrangements. If you have received no documents at all, then that is highly irregular, and they have broken the law.
So please confirm what happened.
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The contravention is correct... the yellow line shows that the street is restricted.
They can lift within 30 minutes, even immediately and Newham has form for that.
Loading would be an exemption but at least 30 minutes to justify?
That seems a stretch for luggage that would be expected to be packed and ready to load before parking.
When you got to the car, had the wheels left the ground?
And please confirm you have received no paperwork?
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Hi! I had a very unfair situation. My car was lifted in front of my house, 20-30 minutes after CEO issued a PCN. Here is the story. In front of my flat is a bus lane which is closed - 7-10am Monday - Friday. I parked in the bus lane at 3 pm on Monday to load some luggage because I was going on holiday. At 3:40 pm I saw that council is lifting my car. I got down to speak with the guy and ask him why he lifts it. He said that I have a PCN and my car is parked on single yellow lane. He shows me the ticket, and the ticket was issued at 3:10 pm. 30 min later the car was already lifted on the truck! He said I have to pay the fine now and they will drop it back. Fine was £265 (200 for the lift and 65 ticket). He also said it pay and appeal procedure so I can appeal after I pay. I paid everything over the phone while he was there. I didn't received any receipt or protocol for the payment and the time when my car was lifted and dropped. I can prove the payment with bank statement. Then I saw that the ticket wasn't issued for single yellow lane, it was for parking in restricted hours code 01. I'll upload photos.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/hcouTNz4xiiJ3rGv8
What can I do? How I can appeal successfully, because for 30 min they wrote the PCN and lifted the car?
And they also haven't issued me any document for my car being lifted, paid and dropped back which I think is wrong. Because if I go on compound parking to get a car I will receive document for this.
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