Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: george74 on September 21, 2024, 09:44:55 am
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We messed up. After submitting the pe3 forms, we got this letter for 3 of them:
I write with reference to your Witness Statement which was filed with the Traffic Enforcement Centre (TEC) under ground 3 that you appealed against the Local authority's decision to reject my representaions within 28 days of service of the rejection notice but had no response to your appeal.
In light of the TEC revoking order I am writing to explain that we have no record of your appeal to the adjudicator. In order for us to consider this matter further, please provide your appeal that you have referred to in your witness statement to TEC, within 21 days of this Ietter. You can also email it to ParkingComplianceRec@richmondandwandsworth.gov.uk.
Once received we will refer your appeal to the adjudication service with an application payment of the PCN at £136:00 which may also include costs.
Should you fail to provide the appeal as requested above, we will refer your witness statement to the adijudication service with an application payment of the PCN at the charge certificate amount (£195.00).
Alternatively I will accept the discounted amount of £65.00 if payment is received within 14 days of the date of this letter.
You may pay by debit or credit card via our website at www.wandsworth.gov.uk/pcnonline or over the telephone, by ringing 0800 021 7763 at any time.
clearly identified wih the Notice number should be sent to the following address:
We were meant to tick boxes 2, not 3. Not sure what to do now? Desperately need some input.
Also find it super odd where they say "alternatively I will..." rather than "We"
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This is so annoying, the forms were rejected. Reason: You have not completed both forms. Please complete the attached both forms PE2 and PE3 and return both forms together.
We do not keep invalid applications. Please return all appeal forms together, along with any supporting documents/evidence.
I was under the assumption only pe3 needs to be completed and PE2 for ones outside the 21 day limit?
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Why these forms instead of the TE9? This is very time consuming and solicitors are asking for £15 per form.
It's the legislative mess we're in, (as usual for the UK !). The London-specific legislation for traffic and bus lane offences, demands submission of PE2 and PE3. But TEC aren't going to tell you that. Their website is truly awful, totally confusing to anybody that doesn't know what to submit.
Anyway, you know now, or as the Scots would say, "ye ken the noo" !
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Finally some update but really need some advice.
They sent the order of recovery for 3 of them.
I submitted TE9 forms but it was rejected as I apparently need to send PE2 and pe3 forms which require a witness from a solicitor or officer of the court!
Why these forms instead of the TE9? This is very time consuming and solicitors are asking for £15 per form.
And my uncle is out of the country! We're already past the 21 day mark for one of the tickets.
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I don't think this is consistent advice.
When I had the same issue with LBBD, it just showed as unable to pay rather than increase the fine by £10.
Additionally with the Wandsworth charge it says it will increase by £8.
I don't think it is reasonable that I should be checking every day/week for the foreseeable future until they decide to register the charge.
Is there no time limit for them to register it? I mean if not then fine I can't do anything.
Wandsworth is out-of-date, the charge used to be £8, but is now £10. You don't have to check with TEC every day, only every 10-14 days. The process is that when they register, they send you an Order for Recovery in the post, and also the form to submit a Statutory Declaration. OUr advice about contacting TEC and also looking on the council website is because we have had people on here who never got the OfR in the post, so had to submit Out-of-Time declarations. The problem with these is that the council can and do object to them, folowing which the declaration is rejected.
We're only trying to make sure you don't fall into any traps. You don't have to follow our advice, you can always just wait for the OfR to turn up. Councils can be dilatory in registering PCN debts, but they cannot get the money unless they do so, so normally one doesn't have to wait long.
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They still have not registered the PCNs.
I also have my own PCN with Dagenham where I received a charge certificate in mid Jan 2025 due to not receiving the NTK - I am waiting for this to be registered as well. Despite contacting Dagenham council asking them to register it (they said it will be), nothing has happened.
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I don't think this is consistent advice.
When I had the same issue with LBBD, it just showed as unable to pay rather than increase the fine by £10.
Additionally with the Wandsworth charge it says it will increase by £8.
I don't think it is reasonable that I should be checking every day/week for the foreseeable future until they decide to register the charge.
Is there no time limit for them to register it? I mean if not then fine I can't do anything.
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It is pointless submitting TE9s until the debt is registered. When they register it, the amount on the CC goes up by £10 being the registration fee, so when you can see the amount owing on their website has gone up by £10, you can submit a TE9. You should also get an Order for Recovery in the post too. There is only a fixed time allowed for TE9 submission, from the date the debt is registered. I think it is 21 days, but I'm not sure.
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How long do we have to wait for the council to register the pcns? I have sent Te9 forms multiple times to be on the safe side but they have been rejected due to not being registered. It has been 2 months since receiving the last correspondance and 4 months since receiving the charge certificates.
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Bump
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For convenience
(https://i.ibb.co/YBG7Pkwv/IMG-20250208-WA0001.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3mHy4NQt)
(https://i.ibb.co/s3kSY0y/IMG-20250125-WA0023.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mz1sWL6)
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My uncle recevied another letter (he had been away so only seeing it now): https://ibb.co/3mHy4NQt.
It is concerning that the previous letter from Wandsworth gave 28 days from Jan 16th to make payment but then this recovery letter is dated on Jan 21st. On the payment for the pcn, it still shows as £65.
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And to clarify, they want 65 for each PCN (while the discount period is active)
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I'm not sure if any apply.
The council received the reps I made within 28 days of the PCN service dates. But as I was not the registered keeper, they sent an email which ended up in my junk (no physical letter) asking for a letter of authorisation. Since it was in my junk mail, we received charge certificates.
We emailed a letter of authorisation and waited for them to register the tickets but they did not and sent the latest.
In the latest, they say I did not send reps, but then address part of my reps later with regards to my uncles pick up and drop offs of sen children.
So according to them I have not sent reps due to no letter of authorisation at the time but they have considered my reps anyways, not in the usual way but to re-issue the discount but remain at the stage of no opportunity to appeal further due to no reps.
Can they really say they did not receive no reps because I wasn't authorised at the time? I'd at least expect a rejection.
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So the options open to you now are: -
1.Pay the re-offered discount - £65 x 2 = £130
2. Wait for the Order for Recovery, submit a Statutory Declaration which allows one of these circumstances to be selected: -
0 I did not receive the:
Notice to Owner (Parking contravention) or
Enforcement Notice (Bus lane contravention) or
Penalty Charge Notice (Moving Traffic contravention or Congestion Charging contravention)
0 I made representations about the penalty charge to the local authority concerned within 28 days of the
service of the Notice to Owner/Enforcement Notice/Penalty Charge Notice, but did not receive a rejection
notice.
0 I appealed to the Parking/Traffic Adjudicator against the local authority’s decision to reject my
representation, within 28 days of service of the rejection notice, but have had no response to my appeal.
If none of these apply, then the first option is best, in my opinion.
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For convenience:
(https://i.ibb.co/s3kSY0y/IMG-20250125-WA0023.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mz1sWL6)
(https://i.ibb.co/FWJqMZY/IMG-20250125-WA0022.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RSP4mr6)
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The council did not register these in the end and responded to my earlier challenges (submitted by my cousin).
I think we will take this to tribunal but I don't see how to? Usually a code is given in the letter.
https://ibb.co.com/mz1sWL6
https://ibb.co.com/RSP4mr6
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These PCNs have still not been registered. How long do the council have to do this?
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I'm still waiting for the order for recovery. Is there a quicker way to check it has been filed aside from calling (can never get through).
Yes, there is, (or should be).
The council web page stating the amount owing will increase by £10 when the debt is registered. The £10 is the TEC registration fee.
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I'm still waiting for the order for recovery. Is there a quicker way to check it has been filed aside from calling (can never get through).
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I'm going to send them the authorisation letter they requested but also file a TE9 form as I technically did not receive a formal rejection for the challenges.
Is that the correct route?
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Bump
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I challenged on behalf of my uncle, using my name.
Apparently they sent me an email which I have now found in spam but no physical letters.
The email said as I am not the registered keeper, I need to tell the registered keeper to contact them within 14 days of receiving the letter to give authority to myself to challenge the PCNs.
Unfortunately they sent that on 14/10/24 and I only know now because my uncle has received the charge certificates.
What should I do now?
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Here are the signs and advance signs.
https://ibb.co/CvWGJJ7
https://ibb.co/q1QFr5Y
https://ibb.co/PNgvYvx
https://ibb.co/hLJ8Nbz
https://ibb.co/bb9VWf6
https://ibb.co/PFGNXZ8
https://ibb.co/GnTx5F6
https://ibb.co/gwcgJ1r
https://ibb.co/yBhtf3Q
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+1
to SFM's response.
Main thing is not to be confrontational in your reps. Make sure you mention the public-spirited nature of the journeys that gave rise to the PCNs (2.3. & 4), also mentioning you accept a mistake was inadvertantly made, but you weren't aware of the offence until the first PCN arrived, by which time a further four had been committed. Point out that PCN 1 has been paid, as you accept your error.
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Our usual approach if there is no way to challenge a sequence of PCNs like this is to pay the first and ask for discretion on others incurred before the first was received. Some councils play ball on this although may not cancel all.
Here are first two - I can't see any signage but this is a no right turn not a zone entrance.
Order:
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/notice/4556255
It's a timed ban:
(a) no person shall cause or permit any motor vehicle proceeding in Chestnut Grove to turn right into Boundaries Road between 7am and 9am and between 3pm and 6pm on Mondays to Fridays inclusive;
Can you take pics of sign|(s) and any advance signs.
(https://i.imgur.com/hXOXh1E.gif)
(https://i.imgur.com/NOTUejW.gif)
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Also I've just noticed when I go to challenge the PCN, on the website it says "You cannot currently challenge the PCN" though it does allow me to go on and challenge it anyways.
https://ibb.co/MB5FCP6
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Posting on behalf of my uncle.
Reg: YM67XGV
Ticket 1:
- 04/09/2024 8:34
- WA90977945
Ticket 2:
- 05/09/2024 8:23
- WA90985976
Ticket 3:
- 09/09/2024 8:28
- WA9101400A
Ticket 4:
- 10/09/2024 8:29
- WA91019692
He received 4 of these tickets - by the time he received the first, the other 3 were already on their way.
Received tickets due to turning right into chestnut grove road during prohibited hours.
This is a relatively new restriction - he does this route for school pick-up (he assists with dropping and collecting disabled children to and from school and has done so for years) so he only received the penalties with school starting.
Now that he has received them, he does say the sign is visible (it is not available on google maps yet).
Does he have any grounds?
https://ibb.co/b3L7jX9
https://ibb.co/SrhpV1B
https://ibb.co/fkQJt1k
https://ibb.co/5rPStnG