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Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Sandrei on August 03, 2023, 05:11:35 pm

Title: Re: PCN in Bromley, Location 6022
Post by: Sandrei on October 14, 2023, 04:47:47 pm
Thank you so much!
Title: Re: PCN in Bromley, Location 6022
Post by: cp8759 on October 14, 2023, 04:40:26 pm
Here's a representation for you to send:

Dear London Borough of Bromley,

I challenge liability for PCN BY22338841 because the alleged contravention did not occur. This is because there was no signage or other indication stating that a vehicle must be parked within any particular markings, so even if the traffic order requires this, the council has failed to bring that provision of the traffic order to my attention.

Furthermore there has been a procedural impropriety, this is because the notice to owner is required to state that the penalty must be paid before the end of 28 days beginning with the date of service of the notice, but the notice you have served wrongly states that the 28 day period starts with the date of the notice. The effect of this is to cut the 28 day period short by two days, but it is a mandatory requirement of the regulations for the notice to owner to state the correct 28 day period.

For either of the above reasons the notice to owner must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,


Send this online and keep a screenshot of the confirmations screen.
Title: Re: PCN in Bromley, Location 6022
Post by: Sandrei on October 14, 2023, 02:55:50 pm
Just got the N t O and I have uploaded it here if I can do something about it. Appreciate it.

Many thanks.

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Title: Re: PCN in Bromley, Location 6022
Post by: John U.K. on August 04, 2023, 04:37:17 pm
Quote from: Sandrei on August 04, 2023, 04:13:17 pm
Just so I can understand, after this Notice of Rejection of Challenge I should receive a NTO?
Yes, as soon as your receive the NtO, post all sides up here for further advice. Only redact name and address, leave everything else in.
Is your address up to date on your V5C in every particular? - physically check, don't guess.
Title: Re: PCN in Bromley, Location 6022
Post by: Sandrei on August 04, 2023, 04:13:17 pm
Just so I can understand, after this Notice of Rejection of Challenge I should receive a NTO?
Title: Re: PCN in Bromley, Location 6022
Post by: Pastmybest on August 04, 2023, 03:43:21 pm
Don't pay when you have the NTO you will be helped with a representation. Basically the council have no right to try to enforce a penalty for how you parked
Title: Re: PCN in Bromley, Location 6022
Post by: Sandrei on August 04, 2023, 03:30:16 pm
Thanks all for responding. So should I pay it or can I make a new PCN chalenge on different grounds?
TIA
Title: Re: PCN in Bromley, Location 6022
Post by: DancingDad on August 04, 2023, 11:34:46 am
Quote from: Ugly duckling on August 04, 2023, 10:48:11 am
IMO, 2(1), 10(f) and 14 have to be read together.

2(1) defines 'parking place' and differentiates this from and similarly defines 'parking space'; 10(f) states that a PCN may be issued if a vehicle is not parked in a space contrary to 14 (b).

I take your point but 10(f) is only relevant to 14 and that clause only has 14(b) that could be relevant. (I quoted above)
But that relates to a space in relation to a payment machine, ie a parking meter.
Without a payment machine to put coins into in every bay, the clause makes little sense.
It's certainly difficult to enforce against when the basic premise of a machine does not exist.

Would be less certain if there was any mention of marked spaces but I have found none.
There is none on post signage either.
Which leaves it inherent to park within a space but IMO no legal basis to enforce.
Title: Re: PCN in Bromley, Location 6022
Post by: guest179 on August 04, 2023, 10:48:11 am
IMO, 2(1), 10(f) and 14 have to be read together.

2(1) defines 'parking place' and differentiates this from and similarly defines 'parking space'; 10(f) states that a PCN may be issued if a vehicle is not parked in a space contrary to 14 (b).
Title: Re: PCN in Bromley, Location 6022
Post by: DancingDad on August 04, 2023, 10:02:41 am
Ta

So the schedule specifies no special manner of standing...ie in marked spaces.

While S14 of the TMO says...
"that every part of the vehicle is within the limits of a parking space which shall
be an appropriate parking place in relation to the parking device in which has
been or should have been inserted any coin for the purpose of payment of the
initial charge. "
Which was common and made sense when parking meters were in play but makes no sense when pay and display machines and pay by phone came in. Does everyone have to park by their phone?

My only concern is whether the numbers in each bay relate to PBP session, ie you should pay for bay 14..... not that I've ever come across that?
Title: Re: PCN in Bromley, Location 6022
Post by: cp8759 on August 03, 2023, 10:46:07 pm
Quote from: DancingDad on August 03, 2023, 05:27:33 pm
I wonder what the TMO says?
The Bromley (Controlled Parking) (On Street Places) Order 2004 (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1SyxezItxau_CctKMzoOj13b62a_Q9tUO&export=inline)
The Bromley (Controlled Parking) (On Street Places) Order 2004 - Schedule 1 (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1FLz9kvegurlShCSc2uW3JSbgE19wHj6b&export=inline) (see entries 29 and 30 on page 3).
The Bromley (Controlled Parking) (On Street Places) Order 2004 - Schedule 3 (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=15bAhI-wYy7TroV7g5UtjCE48uKPevxzs&export=inline)
Title: Re: PCN in Bromley, Location 6022
Post by: cp8759 on August 03, 2023, 10:23:30 pm
The Bromley Notice to Owner is flawed, so it's relatively safe to carry on.

They will reoffer the discount at the next stage in any event, as long as the NTO is challenged within 14 days.

Just post the NTO on here when you get it, see the guidance here (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/) for instructions on how to post images if you run out of space.
Title: Re: PCN in Bromley, Location 6022
Post by: DancingDad on August 03, 2023, 05:27:33 pm
Here?
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4010687,0.0182472,3a,66.6y,222.56h,73.25t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sp7Pr5nI_n-hEHmQhIGfYKA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

Nothing on the sign showing requirement to park within bay markings.
I wonder what the TMO says?
Title: Re: PCN in Bromley, Location 6022
Post by: Sandrei on August 03, 2023, 05:13:06 pm
First time posting here. I don't think I have the original PCN. If you need more info let me know please.
Thanks
Title: PCN in Bromley, Location 6022
Post by: Sandrei on August 03, 2023, 05:11:35 pm
Got a ticket in Bromley because I wasn't parked in the bay because the way the car in front of mine was parked, I had to leave it out of bay. Done the representation, explaining that the other car was parked wrong, forcing me to be out of bay. I wasn't expecting for them to say that is my responability to make sure the car is in the bay, so I should have left the spaces empty? Can I do something about it? Many thanks

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