Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Vada_nevada on September 15, 2024, 05:57:35 pm
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Yes. But they are more likely to reply positively if I am on the case.
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OP's husband has drafted and signed a letter of authorisation. They tried to respond to the email address that sent them the letter on 18 October but it doesn't seem to accept incoming emails. Would it be best to send the letter through the web portal in the same way they submitted reps in the first place (if attachments are possible), or should it be posted (or something else)?
Any ideas?
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Thanks, my mistake and that part of the post has been deleted.
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I think you've got your dates slightly muddled, HCA. The OP confirmed reps were submitted on 18 September, so well in time. The only issue is they were not from the person the PCN was addressed to.
So, my view (albeit I'm probably less well informed than some others) is that Kingston need a letter of authority from the OP's husband explaining that he has authorised his wife to correspond with the council regarding the PCN and to submit reps on his behalf which she did well in advance of the 28 day deadline.
Hopefully then they will submit the Notice of Rejection, following which we are back on process (and when we can look to get Hippocrates authorised also).
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+1.
Deleted.
..and OP, the back of the PCN pl, only one side has been posted.
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Without wanting to complicate this further, as deadline for reps are now past, and the only reps submitted so far were from the OP, do we not need to get those reps considered in which case Kingston need authorisation re the wife/OP? With authorisation for Hippocrates to follow later once we have the Notice of Rejection?
If Hippocrates is authorised at this point, is it not too late for him to get involved?
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OP, I don't think we've seen the PCN yet.
https://imgur.com/a/q0ayhD7
Mr Chips: September 15th.
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OP, I don't think we've seen the PCN yet.
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For benefit of other posters - the OP has been corresponding with me on Facebook and has just received an email this morning from Kingston saying they cannot deal with her as she is not listed as the registered keeper. I have a copy which I'll add shortly.
OP - this is potentially a problem as we weren't aware you yourself were not the recipient of the PCN, your husband was. Legally you have no standing in this case and Kingston are within their rights to ignore anything that doesn't come from him. Given the deadline for representations has passed I'm unsure what your/his options are to continue to fight this PCN (if any).
Is it too late for the husband to write to Kingston to authorise the OP to act as his representative?
I have suggested this too via e mail. This is definitely winnable. I also seriously suggest that your husband authorises me now so that I can deal with this pronto.
Such is life in Kos. 8)
Dear Kingston Parking Services
Ref: PCN VRM
I note receipt of your e mail this morning. I authorise Mr Hippocrates to act for me in this matter. His details: The Pantheon, Kefalos ( 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) )
Yours faithfully
Name of Registered Keeper
***
I have already put the parking manager on notice that, should any cases of mine which reach the Tribunal, his responses to my complaints will be adduced as evidence in each and every one.
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Here is the email. I've also had a look on the Kingston PCN portal and the penalty is currently showing as £65.
(https://i.imgur.com/eeGnzGf.jpeg)
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For benefit of other posters - the OP has been corresponding with me on Facebook and has just received an email this morning from Kingston saying they cannot deal with her as she is not listed as the registered keeper. I have a copy which I'll add shortly.
OP - this is potentially a problem as we weren't aware you yourself were not the recipient of the PCN, your husband was. Legally you have no standing in this case and Kingston are within their rights to ignore anything that doesn't come from him. Given the deadline for representations has passed I'm unsure what your/his options are to continue to fight this PCN (if any).
Is it too late for the husband to write to Kingston to authorise the OP to act as his representative?
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I have just realized the PCN was issued on my husbands name and not in my name, as he is the owner and so I made this representation using my name. Please advise further.
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https://t.co/5AU8Yufdpz
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@Vada_nevada Website now says this below. You should take a screenshot please.
Representation Grounds*
Select all that apply, you have the opportunity to add additional information on the next screen.
Any other ground
At the time of the alleged contravention the vehicle was in the control of someone without my consent
General Representation
I was not the owner at the material time
I was not the owner of the vehicle
Other grounds
Procedural impropriety
The CEO was not prevented from serving the PCN
The contravention did not occur
The order was invalid
The PCN has been paid
The penalty charge exceeded the amount
The penalty exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case
The person who was in control of the vehicle at the time was in control without my consent
The police are taking action
The vehicle was taken without my consent
There was no breach of the bus lane order/ regulation
We are a hire firm
We are a hire firm and have supplied the name of the hirer
Registered Keeper*
Are you the registered keeper of the vehicle? Please choose an option from the list below.
I am the registered keeper of this vehicle
I am the previous owner of this vehicle
I was not the registered keeper of this vehicle at the time of the contravention
I am not, and have never been, the registered keeper of this vehicle
we are a Hire and Lease Company
****
The emboldened "grounds" are wholly irrelevant as they apply to different legislation. Zeus will be appearing today at their Guildhall. Tommy Poirot has now morphed as will Zeus at the end. He will change into a descendant of the Greek God Asclepius - he being the God of healing, the descendant being the father of medicine.
I ask: who is in control of this parking department? The former NSL? The current APCOA? Or Mr Gareth Campbell? If the latter, he should be considering his position due to this incompetence. And he praised his predecessor who did not understand bus lane timings! It seriously annoys me that these people hold powerful positions and that they get away with ripping people off willy-nilly. Video to follow this evening to encourage more people to fight these clowns.
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Good luck!
Luck? Rather total preparation. ;D
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(https://imgur.com/a/QFBFY1E)
I have attached the link to this reply.
Hi. Is it me or do I need to go to Specsavers? ;D
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Good luck!
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I am blind!
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(https://imgur.com/a/QFBFY1E)
I have attached the link to this reply.
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I have just submitted the appeal, thank you. Will send an update once I receive any response from them. Thanks a lot.
I hope you followed my advice. Please show what you sent.
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I have just submitted the appeal, thank you. Will send an update once I receive any response from them. Thanks a lot.
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@MrChips I have managed on my main PC to type in all the correct statutory grounds and their results, which are mostly rubbish and/or state unavailable.
@Vada_nevada: don't concern yourself at present with this specific issue though you should do this later as cases are won on it. However, if I represent you, I have taken screenshots so I have all the necessary evidence.
This links explains why we can win on the website issue:
https://bit.ly/2ALghSS go to adjudications - key cases and see 629 ff.
Please do not even mention all this below at this stage:
If you click challenge and search reason and then re-enter it for the record.
I have the correct statutory grounds verbatim:
***
Click your reason or search for it below
Yellow box junction rules
CCTV PCNs are unfair
Wasn't aware of the rules
My vehicle, not me driving
Never owned this vehicle
never was the owner of the vehicle in question,
We were unable to find a matching reason, please try another search term
*****
Click your reason or search for it below
Yellow box junction rules
CCTV PCNs are unfair
Wasn't aware of the rules
My vehicle, not me driving
Never owned this vehicle
had ceased to be its owner before the date on which the penalty charge was alleged to have become payable
We were unable to find a matching reason, please try another search term
****
Click your reason or search for it below
Yellow box junction rules
CCTV PCNs are unfair
Wasn't aware of the rules
My vehicle, not me driving
Never owned this vehicle
became its owner after that date
We were unable to find a matching reason, please try another search term
****
Click your reason or search for it below
Yellow box junction rules
CCTV PCNs are unfair
Wasn't aware of the rules
My vehicle, not me driving
Never owned this vehicle
that there was no failure to comply with an indication
We were unable to find a matching reason, please try another search term
***
lick your reason or search for it below
Yellow box junction rules
CCTV PCNs are unfair
Wasn't aware of the rules
My vehicle, not me driving
Never owned this vehicle
that at the time the alleged contravention or failure took place the person who was in control of the vehicle was in control of the vehicle without the consent of the owner
Search results
Why was my PCN issued?
***
Click your reason or search for it below
Yellow box junction rules
CCTV PCNs are unfair
Wasn't aware of the rules
My vehicle, not me driving
Never owned this vehicle
that the recipient is a vehicle-hire firm and— (i)the vehicle in question was at the material time hired from that firm under a vehicle hiring agreement; and (ii)the person hiring it had signed a statement of liability acknowledging his liability in respect of any penalty charge notice issued in respect of the vehicle during the currency of the hiring agreement
We were unable to find a matching reason, please try another search term
Click your reason or search for it below
Yellow box junction rules
CCTV PCNs are unfair
Wasn't aware of the rules
My vehicle, not me driving
Never owned this vehicle
the penalty charge exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case;
We were unable to find a matching reason, please try another search term
*****
In two words: total bolleaux. ::) :D
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(https://imgur.com/a/s1Yu3SZ)
Is that all correct and I am not attaching any evidence, right?
Correct. I will drop you a PM with my phone number as I wish for us to get this right! I can talk you through it if you like.
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(https://imgur.com/a/s1Yu3SZ)
Is that all correct and I am not attaching any evidence, right?
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Ok. Please follow this to the letter:
1. Go to online.
2. Skip the chat box
3. DO NOT choose a box/challenge/reason. Instead, go to the next page and enter this text:
3. The PCN does not specify which box junction was allegedly contravened. There are several on this road. Therefore, the contents of the PCN do not sufficiently prove the alleged contravention since the locus as expressed is inexact. Moreover, this box junction is not only marked at the junction between two roads but also in advance and beyond that junction and so it follows that it is not marked in compliance with The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016. In light of this, please cancel the PCN.
****
They will then state you have not selected a reason. Then complete the details and submit. Please screenshot everything.
I have very carefully worded this so we can use the website grounds at the Tribunal if necessary. You do not want to be seen as using one of their wholly inappropriate grounds. Any questions, PM me..
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Please could you clarify the next course of action? I am a bit confused if you would be able to write a draft on my behalf or I achived costs against themI should proceed and if I do, which reasoning I must use?
I will get back shortly as I need a bit more time to play around with their website grounds. I need to see what happens if I enter a statutory ground. I will explain later why this is important.
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Please could you clarify the next course of action? I am a bit confused if you would be able to write a draft on my behalf or I should proceed and if I do, which reasoning I must use?
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Here are the screenshots - it's pretty much as you indicated Hippocrates
(https://i.imgur.com/IzGrqoP.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/ZnJswxm.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/KgQESNM.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/EbErBtS.jpeg)
Here's also the video evidence:
https://youtu.be/RcnwZ_HFXBI
It's the black Nissan
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@Vada_nevada: please screenshot all pages of grounds presented on the RBK website. Please do not challenge yet until I make a draft.
This is the grounds page which is most unsatisfactory:
Yellow box junction rules
The purpose of box junctions is to keep busy junctions clear and free-flowing. If you are going straight ahead at a box junction, you need to make sure you can cross it without stopping. If you are turning right and your exit road is clear, you may stop on a box junction while you wait for oncoming traffic to pass. It is possible to enter a box junction correctly, but then for your path or exit road to become blocked (for example by another vehicle cutting in front or an oncoming vehicle turning across your path). Our officers are trained to check this before issuing a Penalty Charge but if you think your Penalty Charge has been wrongly issued, please explain why. We will then review the CCTV camera evidence and reply to you.
Select this reason to use it in your challenge
CCTV PCNs are unfair
Wasn't aware of the rules
My vehicle, not me driving
Never owned this vehicle
******
There is only one ground - the last one - which is even remotely appropriate!
I would tick the first one and say the yellow box junction is not legal and quote the case given above in its entirety. Screenshot everything. I am happy to represent at the Tribunal if necessary. We can leave the website issues until that stage. They will reject with the usual snotty response that one decision is not binding on another.
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I remember now that Mr Mustard has blogged about this very junction
https://lbbspending.blogspot.com/2023/05/kingston-road-new-malden-yellow-box.html?m=1
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There is that too. I will craft a draft later.
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I've directed this lady here from the Facebook page. Like we see on many Redbridge PCNs, the location is vague, Kingston Road is 1.25 miles long with multiple junctions...
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https://imgur.com/a/q0ayhD7
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Please post up the PCN or at least the PCN number and VRM. Is this New Malden? I will advise further. Got it. Mr Harman has already ruled that this YBJ is non-compliant. Case in a minute. And there may well be a problem with their website grounds.
Case reference 2230056005
Appellant Jeff Baker
Authority Royal Borough of Kingston Upon Thames
Contravention location KINGSTON ROAD
Penalty amount GBP 130.00
Contravention Entering and stopping in a box junction
Decision Date 28 Feb 2023
Adjudicator Andrew Harman
Appeal decision Appeal allowed
Direction cancel the Penalty Charge Notice.
Reasons Upon the appellant making submissions as to the extent of box junction markings supporting evidence being provided.
This box junction is not only marked at the junction between these two roads but also in advance and beyond that junction.
It is not therefore marked in compliance with The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 this penalty charge thus being unenforceable.
The appeal is accordingly allowed.
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Good afternoon,
I driver received PCN for being in yellow box on Kingston road stationary for about 20 seconds. The driver thought the traffic was slow but started to move slowly, and so proceeded when it suddenly stopped it was unsafe to reverse as there was another car behind. To the left there was a cycle lane. Two yellow boxes one next to another and the view for the second yellow box was obstructed by vehicles in front. Any chance for appeal?
Thanks.(https://imgur.com/a/q0ayhD7)
https://maps.app.goo.gl/w19knSQRokPU3gN77?g_st=ic