Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Private parking tickets => Topic started by: Samuasp on September 13, 2024, 11:55:54 pm

Title: Re: Resident Parking Fines
Post by: Samuasp on December 09, 2024, 10:13:14 pm
This was the email sent to me from the landlord as I was ccd into it when they tried to get the tickets cancelled off, sorry if I confusion. As for the parking bay, there is no evidence it’s owned by a separate person other than the landlord on site, the parking signs listed state that you must have a permit to park (the usual ones you’d find in car parks ect from similar companies) all the bays are in a line, numbered 5-9 on this side of the property, there are others on the other side that are numbered as well, these are also owned by the landlord as well as the 300+ inside the garage, it seems this bay 5 is the only one not owned by the landlord


Good afternoon.

We are the agent leasing this parking space on behalf of the car park owner.
I would like to clarify that this parking space is during the renewal period and we usually have a one-month buffer period for us to dispute and provide evidence.
I have made the @Permits  team aware of the situation and asked them to cancel all tickets until we receive the permit.
We placed the order in early June and received it on June 20, 2024.
Title: Re: Resident Parking Fines
Post by: b789 on December 08, 2024, 12:35:15 pm
You also keep stating: "We were assured by the landlord that any fines incurred during this period would be voided while we awaited the updated permit." What form of evidence do you have for tis "assurance"? Do you have it in writing?
Title: Re: Resident Parking Fines
Post by: H C Andersen on December 08, 2024, 09:03:42 am
OP, there are so many cross currents here that it's difficult to sort the wheat from the chaff. Can we put process issues to one side for a moment and get to who might or might not owe who money and for what.

We had paid for a parking permit, but a delay in receiving it, which was beyond our control, prevented us from accessing our designated parking space within the garage. As a result, we were compelled to park in spaces owned by the landlord.

You then posted that the space in question here, bay 5, is not owned by your landlord, therefore placing it outside any terms of your lease.

Pl just confirm, is the parking space at the centre of this dispute owned by your landlord or not?

If not, was parking there simply self-help on the part of 'we' to deal with a problem with your landlord i.e. not making a parking space available as per your lease? And why was extra payment made to your landlord anyway if this space forms part of the 'premises' referred to in your lease?

Your landlord cannot give you reassurances regarding land they don't control and yet PCNs were accumulated well after such assurances were given.

Have we even seen the clear and prominent signs which form this alleged contract?

You might win on process deficiencies by the claimant, but if not and a judge wants to get to the nub of this issue then IMO you need to re-order your thoughts and change your approach.
Title: Re: Resident Parking Fines
Post by: Samuasp on December 08, 2024, 12:52:13 am
redcated the details that cant be posted online but the actual form has these and the images needed.
The dates on the notice to keep do match the dates if that's what you meant ? wasn't too sure on that one

edit : forgot to mention we have a 3 day video from our camera in the flat as it points to the parking bays, very convinient as it shows a vehcile parked in the space for 3 days, no permit (images to prove this) and no fine issued yet they were also parked in bay 5, this is one of the same vehciles that has been caught taking our space. Would it be possible as part of the defence to request the number of fines VCS have issued to vehciles from the move in day to present to show an inconsistent enforcement of the rules ? it doesnt relate to my fines enterily however it shows inconsitent treatment of people delibertly breaking the rules and not being fined where we were legitematly waiting for the landlord to sort the permit

This document outlines the facts and circumstances supporting my defense against the parking charges issued by Vehicle Control Services (VCS). It demonstrates that the charges are unfounded and unfair due to factors outside my control and the failure of the claimant to act reasonably.

Summary
We had paid for a parking permit, but a delay in receiving it, which was beyond our control, prevented us from accessing our designated parking space within the garage. As a result, we were compelled to park in spaces owned by the landlord. We were assured by the landlord that any fines incurred during this period would be voided while we awaited the updated permit. However, this has not occurred, resulting in a claim by VCS. Our actions were not deliberate attempts to breach parking rules; we had no alternative but to park in Bay 5 temporarily.

Timeline of Events
Move-in Date (01/06/2024):

I moved into the property on 1st June 2024, while my roommate had moved in a month earlier.
Prior to moving in, I requested and paid for a parking permit, including a £75 deposit and the first month’s payment.
On the day of my move-in (a Saturday), the office was closed, meaning the permit and access to the garage could not be obtained until Monday.
Landlord's Assurance:

The landlord managing the property assured us that any fines issued while waiting for the permit would be voided. We were allocated Bay 6 inside the garage as our designated space.
Initial Parking Charges:

Upon receiving the Parking Charge Notices (PCNs) in the mail, we forwarded them to the landlord, who successfully had some fines voided. For example:
An email from the landlord stated: “Would you please cancel these 3 tickets as the tenant is still waiting for the updated permit?”
However, fines related to Bay 5 remained unresolved. VCS claimed they could not void these PCNs because Bay 5 was not under the landlord’s ownership. Despite repeated attempts, VCS refused to disclose the actual owner of Bay 5.
Permit Received (23/06/2024):

On 23rd June 2024, we finally received the permit and garage key. However, on entering the garage, another vehicle was occupying our designated Bay 6.

The landlord later confirmed that Bay 6 had been sold years ago, and the current owner of Bay 14 had been informally using Bay 6 due to a design flaw. This issue rendered Bay 6 unusable.

Email from the landlord:
“The developer made a mistake with planning Bays 6 and 14, and the current owner of Bay 14 has been using both spaces due to their layout. Unfortunately, Bay 6 is effectively unusable.”

As a result, we were reassigned to Bay 6 outside the garage.

Further Issues with Reassigned Space:

On 06/07/2024, we found another vehicle occupying our new outside space. This situation forced us to park elsewhere, resulting in another PCN.
We reported this to the landlord, who responded: “Please send me the ticket, and I will ask the parking company to cancel it.”
Despite this assurance, the ticket was not canceled and remains part of VCS’s claim.
Key Issues
Delay in Access to Permitted Parking:

We paid for a parking permit and were assigned a space. However, due to administrative delays beyond our control, we could not access the garage or use our space until 23/06/2024.
During this time, we were told we could park elsewhere without penalty, yet PCNs were still issued.
Confusion Over Bay Ownership:

Bay 5 is adjacent to spaces owned by the landlord. The lack of clear signage regarding ownership led us to reasonably believe it was owned by the same landlord.
VCS has not disclosed the ownership of Bay 5, leaving us unable to resolve the issue.
Reassignment of Space:

Once we received the permit and garage key, we discovered that the designated space (Bay 6) was unusable. This was confirmed by the landlord as a long-standing issue.
We were reassigned to an outdoor space, but this was frequently occupied by unauthorized vehicles, resulting in further PCNs despite our efforts to use the space we had paid for.
Failure to Consolidate Claims:

VCS has failed to consolidate all PCNs into a single claim, issuing separate claims for the same underlying issue (parking without a valid permit). This is inefficient and an abuse of the court process.
Conclusion
The parking charges issued are unjust and unreasonable. The delays and access issues were beyond our control, and the landlord assured us the fines would be voided. VCS’s refusal to consolidate claims and provide clarity on ownership further demonstrates a lack of good faith.

We request that this claim be dismissed, as the fines were issued under circumstances beyond our control, and we made every effort to comply with the rules once a permit and clear parking arrangement were available.

Attachments:

Proof of permit payment
Correspondence with landlord
Photos of spaces (images removed for protection)
Title: Re: Resident Parking Fines
Post by: b789 on December 07, 2024, 11:40:59 pm
When you’ve typed up your notes, please let us know the detail and timeline of actual events so that we can formulate a proper defence for you.

Please check the “issue” dates of the PCNs in the Claim Form and confirm if those are indeed the actual “issue” dates of the PCNs. I will bet that they are not the actual issue dates but the dates of the actual alleged contraventions.
Title: Re: Resident Parking Fines
Post by: Samuasp on December 07, 2024, 11:32:12 pm
All sent off thank you ☺️

Yeah given that some of the claims in the court paper are later than the ones on this new loc it really doesn’t make much sense to me why they couldn’t understand a simple instruction of, please consolidate the fines into a single loc.

I’ll start typing up all my evidence in the meantime into a google doc that should make it easier to detail and submit when the time is right, emails, photos ect
Title: Re: Resident Parking Fines
Post by: b789 on December 07, 2024, 11:17:31 pm
So the LoC you’ve shown us, is for a new upcoming claim for 5 PCNs where they’ve added the fake £70 per PCN. You do not want to be telling them how to do their job for the second LoC. Let them stew in their own mistakes and greed.

When you’ve submitted your AoS for the first claim, let us know. Do not use the MCOL to submit your defence. We can provide a suitable defence when you’re ready.
Title: Re: Resident Parking Fines
Post by: Samuasp on December 07, 2024, 09:26:56 pm
Sorry i didn't realise i hadnt typed dcb legal, here are the redacted links to the letters sent

https://imgur.com/8Bhxiny  Claim Form

https://imgur.com/PLaBND9  LOC Back

https://imgur.com/aAwjtKN  LOC Front

as you can see the letter of claim is showing for different dates, when i contacted them back in august they said i was liable for all 6 cases with them, but there is clearly more, we have asked twice now for these to all be consolidated into a single claim and they have failed twice, ill make sure to include that in my defence, as for the response i'm looking through that dropbox link now

sorry if i caused any confusion with the naming and i appriciate the help sorting this

(any issues with the links lmk ill get on it)
Title: Re: Resident Parking Fines
Post by: b789 on December 07, 2024, 11:19:52 am
Please show us the Particulars of Claim (PoC). Preferably show us the actual n1SDT Claim Form only redacting your personal info, the claim number and the MCOL password.

Do not, under any circumstances contact DCBL (the debt collectors). Did you mean DCB Legal? They are two separate sister companies and you are only to deal with DCB Legal. So, if you have a question, please make sure you are referring to the correct company otherwise it becomes excruciatingly frustrating trying to give advice.

If you have received a second LoC for what is essentially more PCNs at the same location of the same reasons, they cannot sue you for those if they are already suing you for earlier ones. They should have combined all the PCNs into a single claim. It is knows as cause of action estoppel.

We can cover that in more detail once we've dealt with the current claim. With an issue date of 29th November, you have until Wednesday 18th December to submit an Acknowledgement of Service (AoS). Follow the instructions in this PDF on how to submit your AoS:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xvqu3bask5m0zir/money-claim-online-How-to-Acknowledge.pdf?dl=0

There is no advantage to delaying the AoS but by submitting it, you then have until 4pm on Thursday 2nd January to submit your defence.

So, tell us when you've submitted the AoS and we will provide the defence you will submit.

In the meantime, please show us the Claim Form with all the PoC and also show us the second LoC.
Title: Re: Resident Parking Fines
Post by: Samuasp on December 06, 2024, 11:36:05 pm
Finally got an update on this so here it is

They said I had until the 8th November to pay the £680 or they would issue a claim

They have now done this as I revived the notice from the tribunal dated 29th November for the following

The court letter states

Amount claimed 701.28
Court fee 70
Representative fee 70
Total 841.28

This is for parking In bay 5 on

9/6/24
17/6/24
18/6/24
6/7/24

This was dated 29th November

However…

Dcb legal have sent a letter of claim on the 2nd December stating amount due 850 and parking fines issued on

10/6/24
11/6/24
12/6/24
13/6/24
13/6/24

Now i now i need to reply to the tribunal with a defence of some sort which I have, emails from the landlord saying they would cancel off the fines, while we were waiting for a permit in June and the July fine where we returned to find a vehicle parked in our bay, to which the landlord said they would contact the parking company to ensure the fine was issued to them, clearly have not done

Apart from responding to the courts, should I also send dcbl an email about their obsolete failure to consolidate the claims when they have been asked twice at this point and have not


Again much thank you for helping me deal with this absolute disgrace of a company, the landlord is also gonna get an earful of me once this is dealt with
Title: Re: Resident Parking Fines
Post by: DWMB2 on October 26, 2024, 01:02:21 pm
I would focus on your own parking charges for now. Whether or not other drivers were issued with charges when they ought to have been isn't of much relevance to the case at hand, annoying as it might be for tenants.
Title: Re: Resident Parking Fines
Post by: b789 on October 26, 2024, 12:57:37 pm
If they don't consolidate all the claims then any subsequent claims can be struck out for action estoppel. Action estoppel prevents a claimant from bringing multiple claims arising from the same set of facts or cause of action.
Title: Re: Resident Parking Fines
Post by: Samuasp on October 26, 2024, 12:52:33 pm
Thought I’d give another little update as we wait for the claim to be issued.

Dated 18th a letter from dcbl about 3 unpaid parking charges and they will take further action if payment is not made ect ect

Another one on the 24th same thing but think it was for different tickets ? I’ll have to check later

These tickets from these letters are not the same ones from dcb legal but are for the same offence
(As all the tickets issued happened on different days but for the same thing, parking in bay 5 without a permit)

Clearly not consolidated the tickets like they were asked to.

It’s resorted to me setting up a camera to monitor the parking area as we have clear sight of it from our window. The Audi that has taken our space on multiple occasions turned up Thursday night at 5pm, they just left today (Saturday) at midday. They do not have a permit to park in bay 5 or any other bays. They take which ever is free when they turn up. They have even been seen sneaking behind people into the garage and parking in the lowest level.

Now I’m not gonna be that guy and send their reg to the parking company but the footage clearly shows over the 2 day period the warden never turned up or issued a ticket, despite it being 24/7 rules.

Another point is a car was parked in bay 7, we know this one doesn’t have a permit as well. They were sat in their car and saw the warden turning up. They went and did a lap of the block and came back to park in the bay again once he’d gone. This I feel is a strong defence for the mismanagement of the parking for residents and negates their rules of 24/7 enforcement cause clearly it’s not
Title: Re: Resident Parking Fines
Post by: b789 on October 16, 2024, 01:45:19 pm
Wait for the claim from the CNBC.
Title: Re: Resident Parking Fines
Post by: Samuasp on October 16, 2024, 01:38:23 pm
Re: update from this afternoon

We write in response to your correspondence received in our office dated 9th October 2024.
 
We now respond to the same as follows.
 
We refer to our communication of 8th October 2024, we confirm that despite your latest correspondence, our position remains as previously advised. As such, should our client instruct us to proceed with further legal action, we reserve the right to do so without any further reference to you.
 
If you are at all unsure of your legal position, we recommend that you seek your own independent legal advice.
 
You now have until the 8th November 2024 to make payment of £680.00. Failure to make payment will result in a Claim being issued against you without any further reference.
Title: Re: Resident Parking Fines
Post by: b789 on October 08, 2024, 02:21:31 pm
This is not the way to argue the case. Let them file a claim and then you can defend all the points. The LoC and any response is only to try and establish a few points. You can guarantee that DCB Legal are going to screw up the claim by failing to comply with CPR 16.4.

At this point, we are only trying to establish that there are no other PCNs being processed and that DCB Legal are defrauding HMRC of the VAT due on the hundreds of thousands of these claims they issue every year.
Title: Re: Resident Parking Fines
Post by: Samuasp on October 08, 2024, 02:06:03 pm
Would it also not be a good idea to mention the fact we had paid for but were waiting for a permit from the landlord hence why we were parked in the bay and got the fines to begin with?

Also this from 27/08/24 re :

We are instructed by our Client to recover the outstanding balance in relation to the Parking Charge Notices (PCN's) issued to you.

The timeframe in which to submit an appeal expired prior to our instruction; you were given the opportunity to lodge appeals when the initial Notice's were issued to you.

As the person named by our client, you remain liable for the outstanding balance of £1,510.00 for all 6 cases with DCBL.

You can pay easily by using Scan to Pay, simply scan the QR code located on our letters with your phone and pay by card. You can also pay by card on the secure payment page on the website 24

This states there are 6 outstanding and it is £1500 so why this morning did she pipe up about £680 ?
Title: Re: Resident Parking Fines
Post by: DWMB2 on October 08, 2024, 01:28:47 pm
In terms of flow, I wonder if point 3 would be better moved up immediately after point 1, given they're about the related themes of consolidating the various claims into 1 single claim.
Title: Re: Resident Parking Fines
Post by: b789 on October 08, 2024, 01:20:40 pm
Respond to that rubbish from DCB Legal with the following:

Quote
Dear Sir/Madam,

Re: Letters of Claim – VAT Query and Consolidation Request

I refer to your single response dated [insert date], regarding multiple PCNs for which you previously issued separate Letters of Claim (LoC). I am writing to address the procedural and substantive issues with your handling of these claims.

1. Failure to Provide a New Consolidated LoC

You initially issued two separate Letters of Claim—one for a single PCN and one for three PCNs. I responded to each of these LoCs individually, requesting that all PCNs be consolidated into a single Letter of Claim, as required by the Pre-Action Protocol (PAP) for Debt Claims. Rather than issue a new consolidated LoC, you simply responded with a single letter. This is insufficient and constitutes a failure to comply with PAP.

It is unacceptable for you to respond to multiple LoCs with a single letter without issuing a new, compliant consolidated Letter of Claim. As previously requested, I demand that you immediately issue a single, consolidated LoC covering all PCNs. Until you provide this, any further action is premature and a breach of the PAP.

2. Failure to Answer Legitimate Questions as required by the PAP

In my previous correspondence, I raised two legitimate questions which you failed to answer:

1. VAT on Debt Recovery Fees: I asked whether the sums claimed in these Letters of Claim include VAT, and if so, whether the amounts quoted are net or inclusive of VAT. If VAT has been included, I asked for an explanation of why I am being asked to pay the operator’s VAT. You failed to answer this question.

I am giving you one final opportunity to provide clarification on this matter. If you continue to evade this legitimate query, I will report DCB Legal to HMRC for suspected VAT fraud, given that debt recovery fees are subject to VAT, and the lack of transparency raises serious concerns about your practices.

2. Legal Basis of the Sums Claimed: I also asked whether the sums are being claimed as damages for breach of contract or as consideration for parking. You failed to provide a clear explanation of the legal basis on which these sums are being pursued. Please clarify whether the sums claimed represent damages for breach of contract or consideration for parking, as this is critical to my understanding of the claim.

3. Consolidation of PCNs

You have responded to two separate LoCs in a single letter, without addressing the full scope of my request for consolidation. I previously demanded that all PCNs be consolidated into a single claim, including any PCNs currently being processed by your client. You have not confirmed whether the four PCNs in question are the only ones being pursued, or if there are additional PCNs that remain unprocessed.

Please confirm whether any further PCNs are outstanding and, if so, include them in a new, consolidated Letter of Claim. If these four PCNs are the only ones being pursued, you must still issue a single, consolidated LoC in compliance with PAP.

4. Demand for Proper Compliance

In summary, I now demand that you:

1. Issue a new, compliant, and consolidated Letter of Claim covering all PCNs that your client intends to pursue.

2. Provide a clear answer to my question regarding the VAT treatment of the debt recovery fees and confirm whether VAT has been applied.

3. Clarify the legal basis of the sums being claimed (damages for breach of contract or consideration for parking).

4. Confirm whether there are any other PCNs being processed.

Failure to address these points will result in further action, including reporting DCB Legal for suspected VAT fraud and seeking appropriate court remedies for your procedural breaches.

I expect your full response and compliance with the PAP within the next 14 days.

Yours faithfully,

[Your Name]
Title: Re: Resident Parking Fines
Post by: Samuasp on October 08, 2024, 11:42:42 am

 Update this morning, sure it was more than £680 ? 9 outstanding pcn’s so that does not add up. Sent this to the landlord saying we will be taking legal action against them if they don’t try and sort their own contractors out.

We write in response to your correspondence received in our office dated 14th September 2024.
 
We now respond to the same as follows.
 
In accordance with the British Parking Association (BPA) Code of Practice, where the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) becomes overdue and before Court proceedings have commenced, a reasonable sum may be added for the debt recovery fees. The correct recovery fees have been added and will not be removed. As such, the outstanding balance of £170.00 remains payable to prevent further action. The HMRC ‘VAT Supply and Consideration manual’ (VATSC06140), which was last updated on 02 September 2020, confirmed that parking charge notices falls out of the scope of VAT.
 
In relation to the comments concerning damages, the sum added is a contribution to the actual costs incurred by our Client as a result of your non-payment. Our Client’s employees have spent time and material attempting to recover the debt. This is not our Client’s usual business and the resources could have been better spent in other areas of the business. Had you of paid as per the Contract, there would have been no need for recovery action so the amount due would not have increased.
 
In accordance with the appeal decision made on 29thJuly 2020 in Britannia Parking group Ltd v Semark-Julien [2020] EW Mis 12 (CC), it is not correct to propose this claim should be struct out as an 'abuse of process' due to the contractual costs claimed. You may wish to seek your own independent legal advice to access up to date information
 
You now have 30 days from the date of this email to make payment of £680.00. Failure to make payment will result in a Claim being issued against you without any further reference.
Title: Re: Resident Parking Fines
Post by: Samuasp on September 18, 2024, 11:54:10 am
6.5.
“Premises” includes any part or parts of the building boundaries fences garden and outbuildings belonging to
the Landlord unless they have been specifically excluded from the Tenancy. When the Tenancy is part of a larger building
the Premises include the use of common access ways and facilities.

If this helps ?
Title: Re: Resident Parking Fines
Post by: DWMB2 on September 18, 2024, 10:03:13 am
'Premises' being capitalised indicates that it is a defined term in the lease - how is it defined?
Title: Re: Resident Parking Fines
Post by: Samuasp on September 18, 2024, 09:50:15 am
Taken from the tenancy document I currently have

15.1. To park a private vehicle only at the Premises, if applicable.
15.2. To park in the car parking space, garage or driveway allocated to the Premises, if applicable.
15.3. To display a valid permit in your vehicle, whilst parking in the car parking space, garage or driveway allocated to the
premises, if applicable.
15.4. To keep any garage, driveway, or parking space free of oil and to pay for the removal and cleaning of any spillage
caused by a vehicle of the Tenant, his family, contractors or visitors.
15.5. To remove all vehicles belonging to the Tenant, his family or visitors at the end of the Tenancy.
15.6. Not to park any vehicle at the Premises that is not in road worthy condition and fully taxed.

Still waiting to hear back on who owns bay 5 considering our landlord owns the other spaces and all the buildings around the area so not sure why this one space is not ? Unless it was bought recently and not been updated is all I can think of
Title: Re: Resident Parking Fines
Post by: H C Andersen on September 18, 2024, 08:08:04 am
'The signs displayed on the Land set out the terms of parking'.

IMO, rubbish.

Your terms of parking are set out in your lease of which we've only seen a snippet.

We need to see far more of the lease, in particular the definition of 'Premises' and how breaches of the lease conditions are dealt with.

My guess: there's nothing in the lease which makes leaseholders liable for random, third-party charges for failure to comply with their lease.

VCS are there to manage on behalf of leaseholders and landlord(s) and as such leaseholders are excluded from the scope of their parking conditions being instead subject only to those in their respective leases.





Title: Re: Resident Parking Fines
Post by: Samuasp on September 17, 2024, 10:42:56 pm
Just checked the pcn, the small print says more pictures available online, the only two on them was the reg of the car, so yeah they do have pictures of the windscreen ect, also notes that the parking information is for bay 5 holders only but looking at all the other signs around the place they all look the same, this is the only one that states bay 5 only so that isn’t misleading all all.

Still can use this and the fact that there is nothing in the bay to state it’s owned by somebody else, yeah the sign might be there but if they painted it a different colour ect then it would stand out a lot more as it’s not clear.

I shall update when the lovely chaps reply to that email. If they ever
Title: Re: Resident Parking Fines
Post by: b789 on September 17, 2024, 07:22:14 pm
As long as the address on the V5C is one where you can receive post and be notified of it, then it is fine.

The burden of proof is on the claimant to prove that a permit (assuming it was a requirement stated in the lease) was not visible in the vehicle, not for the defendant to prove it was. How do you think they can prove it? Have they proved it?
Title: Re: Resident Parking Fines
Post by: Samuasp on September 17, 2024, 07:16:03 pm
I’m between two different places while I’m on placement so i never thought to change it as I’m back home at weekends anyways to see any letters ect that come through so does it still need changing ?

As for the email no response yet, a friend at work mentioned that the ‘fine’ was for failing to display a ticket but the pictures are of the front and back reg plates of the car, I can’t remember of the top of my head I’ll have to look through them all but I’m sure non of them show any pictures of the windscreen of the car, is this something that can also be used in the defence as there is no clear evidence that a permit wasn’t on show if it’s not displayed on the pcn
Title: Re: Resident Parking Fines
Post by: b789 on September 14, 2024, 03:58:20 pm
Quote from: Samuasp on September 14, 2024, 03:06:57 pm
Thank you, email sent off, ill speak with the landlord and ask for the head copy monday see how long it takes to get back, just been told another letter has turned up back home so i'll see if its another LOC later, if it is that makes 3 in total so far, if these list the same ones and new PCN's is it safe to asume they have added them all into the same claim ? if so i'll have to wait till i have a LOC with all 9 on them is that correct

Basically, you should wait until all PCNs are in a single LoC. If they decide not to wait and issue a claim, any subsequent clams can be requested to be thrown out for cause of action etoppel.

You mention that the correspondence for this matter is going "back home". Is this because when you moved, you hadn't or still haven't update your address on your V5C? If so, you must email the DPOs of both VCS and DCB Legal with a data rectification notice instructing them to erase your old address and to update their records with your current address for service. You do not want either of these bottom-dwelling holding an old or two addresses. That is how so many people end up with default CCJs.

You should also update your V5C (online) with your current address. Not updating it could lead to a real "fine" of up to £1,000.
Title: Re: Resident Parking Fines
Post by: Samuasp on September 14, 2024, 03:06:57 pm
Thank you, email sent off, ill speak with the landlord and ask for the head copy monday see how long it takes to get back, just been told another letter has turned up back home so i'll see if its another LOC later, if it is that makes 3 in total so far, if these list the same ones and new PCN's is it safe to asume they have added them all into the same claim ? if so i'll have to wait till i have a LOC with all 9 on them is that correct
Title: Re: Resident Parking Fines
Post by: b789 on September 14, 2024, 01:35:47 pm
For now, you need to get that response to the LoC off and have them suspend any action until they have consolidated all claims and answered the questions in your letter regarding the principal and the damages and the VAT.

The VAT question is so they incriminate themselves and you can report them to HMRC for VAT fraud. Takes 5 minutes online as they will not provide an answer to the question or will mendaciously claim that there is no VAT on parking charges, which was not the question.

Make sure to clarify the details about who owns what and who contracted VCS and ask for a copy of the head lease from your landlord.
Title: Re: Resident Parking Fines
Post by: Samuasp on September 14, 2024, 01:17:52 pm
https://imgur.com/XigpYY2
https://imgur.com/kw4X4ng

https://imgur.com/VjVtGWi
permit we got on the 22nd

https://imgur.com/PVcKQYP
found in contract for flat

https://imgur.com/cXI5580
as advertised on the website for the flats

all outdoor spaces are managed by VCS but i assume the landlord or the agent owns the land as its a few blocks of flats with the outdoor spaces being surrounded by these flats. I will be able to check monday who owns the land when i speak to the landlord. if it is their agent ? not sure

at the moment yes, 2 DCB legal letters, one containing a charge
9/6/24 - letter dated 29 aug 24
 
and the other letter dated 4 sep 24
9/6/24
17/6/24
18/6/24

as per the email from vcs the other day saying im liable for the 9 outstanding i assume other letters are on the way ?

Title: Re: Resident Parking Fines
Post by: DWMB2 on September 14, 2024, 12:57:14 pm
We need to see your lease. We also need clarity on which PCNs are in scope on the Letters of Claim, and where they relate to (I.e. Are they on land that forms part of your lease, or someone else's land that the landlord seemingly told you to park on despite having no ownership of it himself)
Title: Re: Resident Parking Fines
Post by: b789 on September 14, 2024, 12:54:12 pm
Here is a suggested response to the LoCs you have received. You may need to correct the reference to the number of PCNs in each LoC but the rest of the letter will do:

Quote
Dear Sir,

I refer to your Letters of Claim.

The alleged debt is disputed, and any court proceedings will be vigorously defended.

To date, I have received two Letters of Claim: one for a single PCN and another covering at least two further PCNs. I understand there may be up to nine additional PCNs being processed. As it stands, the sums claimed in these Letters of Claim appear to include debt recovery costs. Could you please confirm whether these sums include VAT? If so, please clarify whether the amounts quoted are net or inclusive of VAT. If the latter, I would like an explanation as to why I am being asked to pay the operator’s VAT.

Additionally, regarding the principal sum alleged for each PCN, I would appreciate clarification on the following: Is this sum being claimed as damages for breach of contract, or will it be pleaded as consideration for parking? Please provide a clear explanation of the legal basis on which these sums are being pursued.

Further, it is wholly inappropriate and an abuse of process to issue separate claims for what is essentially the same alleged breach, involving the same vehicle and location. Issuing multiple claims in this manner is an obvious attempt to recover multiple sets of costs, which conflicts with the overriding objective of the Civil Procedure Rules to handle cases justly and proportionately.

I am fully aware of the legal principle of cause of action estoppel, and I will rely on it if you choose to ignore this demand. You should be well aware, and it is embarrassing if you are not, that once a claim has been brought, further claims for the same cause of action cannot be pursued, as this would constitute an abuse of process.

Therefore, I demand that you immediately suspend any action on these claims and refrain from issuing any further claims until all the PCNs are consolidated into a single claim. This includes any PCNs currently being processed by your client but not yet included in the Letters of Claim I have received. Please reissue a single, consolidated Letter of Claim for all PCNs once they have been grouped together.

If you proceed with multiple claims, I will bring this abuse of process to the court’s attention, including an application for strike-out and recovery of costs.

I expect answers to my questions above, confirmation that action has been suspended and that a single Letter of Claim will be issued once all PCNs are consolidated.

Yours faithfully
Title: Re: Resident Parking Fines
Post by: b789 on September 14, 2024, 12:30:33 pm
I see you have posted some information whilst I was making my post. I note that one of the emails  is from "the agent leasing the space from the car park owner". Who is this "agent" and who is the car park "owner"?

I also note that whoever this "agent" that they were responding to DCBL (not DCBL Legal) which show a failure to understand the process as nobody should be communicating with a useless debt collector who has no power, whatsoever, to do anything in this matter.

Until we get an understanding of what the lease/AST actually says, there is little more we can do for now.
Title: Re: Resident Parking Fines
Post by: b789 on September 14, 2024, 12:20:03 pm
Please stop referring to these PCNs as "fines." They are nothing of the sort. These are simply invoices issued by an unregulated private parking company for an alleged breach of contract by the driver.

As already mentioned, it is crucial to review your lease or AST (Assured Shorthold Tenancy) agreement. This will tell you what it says about parking, permits, and whether a third party like VCS is mentioned or permitted to issue charges if the terms and conditions are breached. Equally important is what your lease/AST does not say about parking—if there’s no mention of a third-party parking company, that could work in your favour.

So, no "fines" and no "offences" have occurred—this is purely a matter of civil contract law.

About the landlord not owning the garage space they agreed to rent to you: Is this property managed by a management company? It sounds like there’s a disconnect between what the landlord can provide and what they are actually offering you. You may want to ask your landlord for a copy of the ‘head lease.’ This could be useful in understanding how parking is defined and controlled.

Regarding your question on timing:

Quote
"If they issue a judgment, is that the time to respond?"

No, there is no judgment until a judge has made one. You do want a claim to be issued, as that’s your opportunity to fight this in court. The county court process will allow you to present your defence, and only a judge can decide whether you owe VCS any money.

Defences available to you:

You have numerous defences here. The landlord’s failure to provide access to the space you were paying for, their assurance that the "fines" would be "dealt with," the confusion over bay ownership, and the fact that you had paid for parking during the relevant timeframes all work in your favour.

Have you received one Letter of Claim (LoC) covering multiple PCNs, or separate LoCs for each PCN? This will impact how you respond.

DCBL vs. DCB Legal: If you’ve been dealing with DCBL (the debt collection arm), it’s worth noting that they have no legal authority to make decisions about the claim. You do not must not engage with them. However, DCB Legal is the firm that can issue claims on behalf of VCS. It’s important to distinguish between the two, and check who issued the Letter of Claim.

Concern about a CCJ:

In the unlikely event that you lose the case, a County Court Judgment (CCJ) will only affect your credit file if you fail to pay in full within 28 days. As long as the full amount is paid within that timeframe, it will not appear on your credit record at all. It is completely expunged from the record.

Potential court costs:

Even if you are unsuccessful in your defence, the total amount would likely be reduced. Judges commonly disallow the additional £70 added to each PCN, as this is often seen as an abuse of process. Furthermore, if VCS is trying to litigate each PCN separately—for the same vehicle, in the same location, and for essentially the same reasons—that is also an abuse of process. All PCNs should be bundled into one single claim, and if they don’t, the principle of cause of action estoppel can apply to prevent multiple claims.
Title: Re: Resident Parking Fines
Post by: Samuasp on September 14, 2024, 11:58:05 am
https://imgur.com/o9Fcyvn
email to vcs from landlord canceling some tickets

https://imgur.com/0lJN1E8
back of loc

https://imgur.com/O348iNr
email to vcs

https://imgur.com/GUaL3vo
front of loc

https://imgur.com/undefined
parking bay

https://imgur.com/Nggw6Ax
email to vcs regarding cancel

https://imgur.com/0gRRi6V
response from vcs to landlord

DCB legal have sent two LOC's so far, checked last night and not recived any others as of yet, the second one has only one pcn on it however. We were told there were 9 outstanding
(let me know if the pictures are good enough if not ill get some more

any help is help at this point, your right its a mess

Title: Re: Resident Parking Fines
Post by: DWMB2 on September 14, 2024, 11:10:25 am
Quote
Show us one of these
Quote
And tell us how many Letters of Claim you have.
Title: Re: Resident Parking Fines
Post by: H C Andersen on September 14, 2024, 10:12:01 am
But of a rant but if they issue a judgment is that the time to respond ? I don’t want a claim issuing I want to fight this in court as it looks like the landlord isn’t going to get anywhere with getting these written off and I’m not about to have a £1600 ccj for 6 years for something that’s not our fault

No. The time is now.

You have several Letters of Claim. These are mandated docs in the court process. You must respond or risk being considered unreasonable.

Show us one of these - I assume they're similar.
Confirm that it is addressed to you by name.
Have you given VCS at any stage details as to the identity of the driver on this day(and others)?
Title: Re: Resident Parking Fines
Post by: DWMB2 on September 14, 2024, 10:00:24 am
This sounds like a mess. We could do with seeing:
Part of the issue here is that from your account of things, for some of the charges, your landlord has given you 'permission' to park on land that isn't his, and that he therefore would seemingly have no authority to grant you permission to park on (the phrase "nemo dat quod non habet" - "no one can give what they do not have", springs to mind).

What do you have in writing and from whom?
Title: Resident Parking Fines
Post by: Samuasp on September 13, 2024, 11:55:54 pm
Looking for some advice on parking fines and how to deal with this situation

TLDR : £1600 in fines from landlords parking company for parking we had paid for

We moved into our flat at the beginning of June, before moving into we asked for a parking permit on site. We were told this was not an issue and we would be given one. As it turned out the landlord of the flats was awaiting a permit and said they would get it to us as soon as possible. We were paying for a parking space we could not use as it was inside a garage and didn’t have a key or permit to get into it for about 3 weeks, we got the permit on 22nd June along with the garage key.

During this time we had no choice but to park outside the flat in the marked bays outside. We assumed these spaces were also owned by the landlord as we were told we could park outside until the permit was sorted and any fines issued would be dealt with.

Here’s the kicker

The parking space outside we sometimes had to park in (bay 5) was not owned by the landlord of the flats despite it being a row of bays. So we were fined for parking in both bay 5 and 6(6 owned by the landlord as well as the rest of them outside). There is no sign posting outside saying this bay is privately owned however. Vcs manage all the spaces outside so they have fined me for parking in either space without a permit (which we had paid for but were waiting for)

Anyways we send the fines to the landlord to cancel thinking nothing of it as we were told we could park there until we had the permit and could get into the garage.

As it turns out the space they gave us in the garage is actually owned by another resident as we found a nice note on the car in the morning asking us not to park there and to speak with the landlord as they had seen the permit in the window and realised the landlords mistake.

Having spoke with the landlord they said they didn’t realise it was owned by another party and that they would arrange for us to be able to park outside as all the garage bays were full.

We were given bay 6 outside which is now our parking spot however, after 5pm if we take the car out even for 30 min to do a shop in town, we will come back to no space as somebody will take it. This happens on the regular as the warden isn’t present after this time. They will always leave in the morning before the warden turns up again.

One of the fines we have from July (when we had the permit) was for parking in bay 5 without a permit because we got back at midnight and our space was taken, we have photo proof of our car parked in by 5 with our space (bay 6) occupied by a somebody else. We sent these to the landlord to cancel but. Because the landlords mistake does not own bay 5, vcs are refusing to cancel any of the fines we have for this bay, this includes all the fines from before we even got the permit. The landlords is trying to get these cancelled off but vcs are not moving.

DCBL sent letters to which I informed them I’m not paying and sent basically the above. DCBL legal have now sent letters saying 30 days to pay or they issue a claim (ends 25th September)

I’ve spoken to the landlord and they said if I need any help with this let them know, the only help I need from them is to either fight their own parking company.

What are my options for dealing with these 9 outstanding pcn notices ? We’ve tried emailing pictures to vcs where the car blocked our space In July and also about how we’re were waiting for a permit hence why we were parking in the other bays in June but the email bounced back when you send pictures. I plan on trying to get this settled in court along with holding the landlord partially responsible for this mess they’ve left their tenants in (as I type this somebody is currently parked in our space we’re paying (£100 a month for, the irony)

But of a rant but if they issue a judgment is that the time to respond ? I don’t want a claim issuing I want to fight this in court as it looks like the landlord isn’t going to get anywhere with getting these written off and I’m not about to have a £1600 ccj for 6 years for something that’s not our fault