Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: anthomy93 on September 13, 2024, 03:23:46 pm
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It's a bit technical. The adjudicator will see your car charge into the box, then stop and slowly reverse. The car is still partly in the box at the end of the video. As I said, the odds don't look good to me. But Hey, you have the absolute right in law to take them to London Tribunals if you want a punt !
Here's what the Earl of Montrose wrote in the 17th Century
"He either fears his fate too much
Or his deserts are small
Who fears to put it to the touch
To win, or lose it all!
Unfortunately the Earl lost, and was hanged, drawn, and quartered in Edinburgh on the 21st May 1650
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You submitted formalreps to the council; there is no first informal stage like a parking PCN. Next stage as per their letter of rejection, is to appeal to the adjudicators at London Tribunals.
I have to say, after looking at the video, that I don't think you have a strong enough case to risk the extra £65. They have re-offered the discount, but see what others say before making your mind up.
Thank you Incandescent!
I do appreciate your input.
Is it too technical that on the video I was reversing whilst the car at the front was stationary and when I hit the brake (whilst waiting for the pedestrians to cross) the front car started moving, so the 2 vehicles were not stationary simultaneously?
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You submitted formalreps to the council; there is no first informal stage like a parking PCN. Next stage as per their letter of rejection, is to appeal to the adjudicators at London Tribunals.
I have to say, after looking at the video, that I don't think you have a strong enough case to risk the extra £65. They have re-offered the discount, but see what others say before making your mind up.
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Quote from: MrChips on Today at 01:46:38 pm
Am I getting deja vu? Have seen a very similar case at this junction not that long ago.
This appears to be the same case as
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/waltham-forest-contravention-31-entered-yellow-box-lea-bridge-road-e10-rigg-appr/msg40471/#msg40471
I've asked a Mod to merge.
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Am I getting deja vu? Have seen a very similar case at this junction not that long ago.
Another angle that night be successful is that you didn't have to stop where you did as you left such a large gap to the vehicle in front. I've not done the calculations but it's likely you could have continued crossing the box at a slowish pace and the white car in front would have cleared (or at least started moving) by the time you got there.
yeah that's true, in hindsight I could have moved at a slower pace.
would I have a chance with my appeal to adjudicator?
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Am I getting deja vu? Have seen a very similar case at this junction not that long ago.
Another angle that night be successful is that you didn't have to stop where you did as you left such a large gap to the vehicle in front. I've not done the calculations but it's likely you could have continued crossing the box at a slowish pace and the white car in front would have cleared (or at least started moving) by the time you got there.
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Hi,
hope you're well!
I have recently informally challenged this PCN on the grounds of contravention did not occur.
I received a notice of rejection and I would like to go ahead to formal appeal to adjudicator, but not sure what to do next.
These are the letters.
https://imgur.com/JrfHhaH
https://imgur.com/7RHExEg
https://imgur.com/rKBtF6H
https://imgur.com/R7dQdET
Notice of rejection (https://imgur.com/a/efEON2i)
This was my appeal to the council.
"I challenge liability for this PCN on the grounds that the contravention did not occur.
Having had the opportunity to view the video footage I can see it shows that no contravention has taken place. The Regulations provide "…no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box due to the presence of stationary vehicles." The footage shows space beyond the box junction opened up as camera pans out which would be sufficient to accommodate my vehicle. There was not a point in time where white car ahead of me and my car were simultaneously stationary. As such my vehicle was not forced to stop where it did due to stationary vehicles and it follows that no contravention took place.
You can also see that I was in the yellow box for only long enough to change my gears to reverse as there was space behind me, however I was reversing cautiously as people were crossing behind me. The recording cut right after you can clearly see that I was continuing to reverse.
I refer you to the decision of adjudicator Andrew Harman in Carlo Bergamini v Transport for London (2220539159) and adjudicator Jane Anderson in Katy Wong v Royal Borough of Kingston (2140345227)
For these reasons, it follows that the notice must be cancelled.
Yours faithfully,"
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Please to post up the letter of rejection.
letter of rejection (https://imgur.com/a/ID9MwBv)
I believe I have a good chance appealing this as they have conveniently cut the footage as soon as my brake was released and continued to reverse when pedestrians stopped crossing, but space also opened up at the front simultaneously
Can someone advise me on the next steps please?
Thank you in advance!
All of the letter, please.
Could you advise me how to proceed next after this rejection letter?
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Should I use the same reasoning in my formal appeal?
"I challenge liability for this PCN on the grounds that the contravention did not occur.
Having had the opportunity to view the video footage I can see it shows that no contravention has taken place. The Regulations provide "…no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box due to the presence of stationary vehicles." The footage shows space beyond the box junction opened up as camera pans out which would be sufficient to accommodate my vehicle. There was not a point in time where white car ahead of me and my car were simultaneously stationary. As such my vehicle was not forced to stop where it did due to stationary vehicles and it follows that no contravention took place.
You can also see that I was in the yellow box for only long enough to change my gears to reverse as there was space behind me, however I was reversing cautiously as people were crossing behind me. The recording cut right after you can clearly see that I was continuing to reverse.
I refer you to the decision of adjudicator Jane Anderson in Katy Wong v Royal Borough of Kingston (2140345227)
For these reasons, it follows that the notice must be cancelled.
Yours faithfully,"
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Please to post up the letter of rejection.
letter of rejection (https://imgur.com/a/ID9MwBv)
I believe I have a good chance appealing this as they have conveniently cut the footage as soon as my brake was released and continued to reverse when pedestrians stopped crossing, but space also opened up at the front simultaneously
Can someone advise me on the next steps please?
Thank you in advance!
All of the letter, please.
apologies..
here is the full letter
letter of rejection (https://imgur.com/a/efEON2i)
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Please to post up the letter of rejection.
letter of rejection (https://imgur.com/a/ID9MwBv)
I believe I have a good chance appealing this as they have conveniently cut the footage as soon as my brake was released and continued to reverse when pedestrians stopped crossing, but space also opened up at the front simultaneously
Can someone advise me on the next steps please?
Thank you in advance!
All of the letter, please.
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Please to post up the letter of rejection.
letter of rejection (https://imgur.com/a/ID9MwBv)
I believe I have a good chance appealing this as they have conveniently cut the footage as soon as my brake was released and continued to reverse when pedestrians stopped crossing, but space also opened up at the front simultaneously
Can someone advise me on the next steps please?
Thank you in advance!
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Please to post up the letter of rejection.
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my first challenge got rejected from the Waltham Forest council.
I'm moving on to the tribunal appeal.
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Hi, thank you for your replies on contravention most likely did not occur.
Any chance someone could guide me through the appealing process for it please?
As I understand, I should contest that the contravention didn't occur on the basis of there was no point in time where the white car at the front and my car were simultaneously stationary.
Should I also mention that even when I noticed that cars were not moving at the front even though there was space ahead, I have paused to shift gears however I had to move slowly as people were crossing behind me. Recording stopped when I clearly continued to reverse out of the box as soon as there were no people behind me.
this is what I drafted:
"I challenge liability for this PCN on the grounds that the contravention did not occur.
Having had the opportunity to view the video footage I can see it shows that no contravention has taken place. The Regulations provide "…no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box due to the presence of stationary vehicles." The footage shows space beyond the box junction opened up as camera pans out which would be sufficient to accommodate my vehicle. There was not a point in time where white car ahead of me and my car were simultaneously stationary. As such my vehicle was not forced to stop where it did due to stationary vehicles and it follows that no contravention took place.
You can also see that I was in the yellow box for only long enough to change my gears to reverse as there was space behind me, however I was reversing cautiously as people were crossing behind me. The recording cut right after you can clearly see that I was continuing to reverse.
I refer you to the decision of adjudicator Andrew Harman in Carlo Bergamini v Transport for London (2220539159) and adjudicator Jane Anderson in Katy Wong v Royal Borough of Kingston (2140345227)
For these reasons, it follows that the notice must be cancelled.
Yours faithfully,"
Thank you for your help!
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Can someone help me drafting a challenge against the PCN?
I noticed that the video cut right after my break light turns off, moment before I continue reversing when there were no more people crossing behind me.
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Can't see a point when you and the white car are simultaneously stationary = no contravention
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Very good chance you were stationary only long enough to change gear to reverse
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Good shout here as you were reversing and when the camera pans out space beyond the box opened up so it's hard for them to say a contravention occurred.
(https://i.imgur.com/JzRfBkw.gif)
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photos (https://imgur.com/JrfHhaH)
photo 2 (https://imgur.com/7RHExEg)
photo 3 (https://imgur.com/rKBtF6H)
photo 4 (https://imgur.com/R7dQdET)
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Hi, I have received a PCN of FR63395228 today saying that I have entered and stopped in the yellow box.
I remember that day, but I remember that I have reversed back when I saw the front car stopping, but also people were crossing the road behind my car, so I had to reverse slowly
The video provided shows I was reversing, but it cuts before I pulled all the way back.
Do I have grounds to appeal?
(https://imgur.com/a/1R655ik)
https://maps.app.goo.gl/MG75GowkoY1nUDny8