Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Kurtcat on September 10, 2024, 01:33:37 pm
-
Hi all,
Thanks for replies so far.
The original PCN I appealed online using their system of appeal. The NTO which was sent only allowed representation by post.
I am not trying to hide anything, i genuinely believe the NTO was appealed within time limit although from the information that has been highlighted then possibly not. Unfortunately it was not sent by registered post - that is a lesson learnt.
You are mistaken. You could have submitted formal represenations (challenge) against the NTO (Notice to Owner) online. It's the tab called 'Make a Challenge/Represenatation' on the PCN Main Display page. In general it's best to use the online system where available as in most cases you will get an acknowledgement email confirming something was submitted and when.
And going forward if you have to use Royal Mail then it's only necessary to post such letters 1st class at the Post Office Counter, so never in a Post Box. Ask for and keep safe a free of charge Proof of Posting, you don't need to use recorded or special delivery. In most cases it won't make any difference as to when the recipient actually opens the mail in the mail sack and logs it onto the computer system. All you need to be able to do is demonstrate when you posted the letter. It's deemed served on the Council two working days after the day of posting.
Anyway your formal represenations against the NTO have been rejected, but the discount option has been reset. See the 'Key Events' log below. So now you need to decide if you want to pay up the £25 or appeal to the Adjudicator. If you appeal then you'll be in for the full £50 if you lose the case.
It also looks like the Charge Certificate has been cancelled.
Please post up the Notice of Rejection as soon as it arrives so we can check the posibilities for an appeal.
"PCN events
Date
Description
13/09/2024 12:17 Off hold no compensate
13/09/2024 12:17 Rejected Representation - Discount Period Reset
13/09/2024 12:17 Rep received General Representation
13/09/2024 12:17 Revert to pre- Charge Certificate
13/09/2024 12:17 Off Hold Compensate
13/09/2024 12:17 Discount Period Reset
02/09/2024 15:39 On Hold: Representation Received
30/08/2024 10:06 Charge Certificate Issued
26/07/2024 10:16 NTO/Enforcement Notice Issued
25/07/2024 14:31 Revert to pre-NTO
25/07/2024 14:31 Representation Accepted
25/07/2024 14:29 Off hold no compensate
25/07/2024 14:29 Representation Accepted
25/07/2024 14:29 Rep received We are a hire firm
25/07/2024 14:29 Revert to pre-NTO
24/07/2024 12:07 On Hold: Representation Received
17/07/2024 10:16 NTO/Enforcement Notice Issued
16/07/2024 16:34 Off hold no compensate
16/07/2024 16:34 Representation Accepted
16/07/2024 16:34 Rep received Any other ground
16/07/2024 16:34 Revert to pre-NTO
15/07/2024 15:42 On Hold: Representation Received
21/06/2024 10:16 NTO/Enforcement Notice Issued
21/05/2024 16:05 Off Hold Compensate
21/05/2024 16:05 Discount Period Reset
20/05/2024 13:47 On Hold: Challenge Received"
-
Hi all,
Thanks for replies so far.
The original PCN I appealed online using their system of appeal. The NTO which was sent only allowed representation by post.
I am not trying to hide anything, i genuinely believe the NTO was appealed within time limit although from the information that has been highlighted then possibly not. Unfortunately it was not sent by registered post - that is a lesson learnt.
-
The OP posted:
I thought i had done my level best to explain.......
I appealed the PCN online within the timescale - I received no acknowledgement.
I then received an NTO, i am unsure of date but confident that my reply was within timescale - I received no acknowledgement.
I then received the Charge Certificate.
OP, we can hardly just disregard the council's PCN timeline. They say reps received 2 Sept, you say 'I am unsure of the date but confident my reply was within timescale'.
Hence why 'how' you made reps has been asked.
NTO posted 26 July, therefore deemed served on 30th(2nd working day), latest date for reps to be served on council was 26 Aug. As this was a Bank Holiday then procedurally you had to have served by Fri. 23rd, which meant posting first-class no later than Wed. 21st.
Council have recorded your reps as 1 week after the latest date.
Hopefully, they'll not disregard.
Remember, they have what you submitted, so they know how and when.
-
Appreciate your thoughts Incandescent, could you explain what WS is please ???
WS=Witness Statement
-
@Kurtcat
How did you submit your formal representation against the Notice to Owner? Was it online or by Royal Mail?
If online did you get an emailed acknowledgement / receipt?
If by Royal Mail post did you obtain a proof of posting or a recorded delivery receipt?
WS = Witness Statement
-
WS is witness statement made at order for recovery stage.
I suggest you just wait and see what happens as they have logged your representation.
Did you really use the post to send reps? Torbay has an online system which you've accessed to get the timeline of events.
-
Appreciate your thoughts Incandescent, could you explain what WS is please ???
-
Sadly, making formal reps is not the WS test, rather it's making them in accordance with reg. 5 which means in time.
But the OP is convinced that reps were submitted in time by Royal Mail, and with no response to say they weren't, I think a WS can be submitted with a clear conscience.
-
Sadly, making formal reps is not the WS test, rather it's making them in accordance with reg. 5 which means in time.
Also sadly, IMO disregard does not obligate the authority to respond.
OP, the 14-day CC limit ends on Sun. 16th. I suggest you contact the council and find out what they're doing. Do not debate the PCN, just ask when you should expect to receive a response to your reps..
..which you've still not told us when and how they were submitted which is rather important.
I thought i had done my level best to explain.......
I appealed the PCN online within the timescale - I received no acknowledgement.
I then received an NTO, i am unsure of date but confident that my reply was within timescale - I received no acknowledgement.
I then received the Charge Certificate.
I have contacted the council and the person i spoke with couldn't update me anymore than what i know.
From what i can figure out from your reply is it looks like they are saying the NTO appeal did not reach them in time for appeal.
With all of this in consideration - What can i do now??
-
Sadly, making formal reps is not the WS test, rather it's making them in accordance with reg. 5 which means in time.
Also sadly, IMO disregard does not obligate the authority to respond.
OP, the 14-day CC limit ends on Sun. 16th. I suggest you contact the council and find out what they're doing. Do not debate the PCN, just ask when you should expect to receive a response to your reps..
..which you've still not told us when and how they were submitted which is rather important.
-
I think the OP could legitimately state, on a Witness Statement in response to the next stage, (Order for Recovery), that he submitted reps against the NtO, but received no reply. At least a letter refusing them as too late should have been sent, surely ?
-
Sadly, as regards procedure it means nothing.
The PCN was clear: if a NTO is served then the owner may make formal reps and must follow the instructions irrespective of whether [informal] reps against the PCN have been made.
And the authority may disregard [formal] reps made late i.e. after the end of the 28-day period.
When did you make formal reps and how? If you have a copy, pl post.
-
So the NTO was addressed to you.
I heard noting back until an NTO arrived, the NTO said i had to appeal in writing which i did and included a printed copy of the RINGO receipt. Again i heard nothing until yesterday when a Charge Certificate arrived.
There's only one record of reps being received by the council i.e. 2 Sept.
As you say 'the charge certificate only arrived yesterday' [9 Sept] then it must follow that the reps 'received' by them on 2 Sept. were yours in response to the NTO, and therefore out of time, the latest date being 26th Aug.
Pl explain.
If you cannot prove that you made reps in time then you have nowhere to go if they reject them.
I get what you are saying but surely the original appeal i completed online at PCN stage should mean something??
-
So the NTO was addressed to you.
I heard noting back until an NTO arrived, the NTO said i had to appeal in writing which i did and included a printed copy of the RINGO receipt. Again i heard nothing until yesterday when a Charge Certificate arrived.
There's only one record of reps being received by the council i.e. 2 Sept.
As you say 'the charge certificate only arrived yesterday' [9 Sept] then it must follow that the reps 'received' by them on 2 Sept. were yours in response to the NTO, and therefore out of time, the latest date being 26th Aug.
Pl explain.
If you cannot prove that you made reps in time then you have nowhere to go if they reject them.
-
It says on hold so hopefully they are considering it rather than passing to debt recovery.
If they do register debt that only adds £10 and can be paid to avoid bailiffs so £85 in total.
-
So the lease company has made reps and asked the council to reissue the NTO to you?
You made reps but got no reply? In which case there's a process to get this unravelled when they register the debt.
If they register the debt won't i be dealing with Baliffs instead of the council?
Unsure of late rep, i was confident i sent it before time limit was up but i may be wrong.
-
So the lease company has made reps and asked the council to reissue the NTO to you?
You made reps but got no reply?
But from the timeline it looks like you may have made late reps as it says received on 2/9/24 after they were entitled to send a charge certificate following the NTO.
They can still consider the reps.
(https://i.imgur.com/spQ8K5Z.png)
-
To whom are the NTO and CC actually addressed, you or someone else who has then simply passed sent them on to you?
Both are addressed to me.
-
To whom are the NTO and CC actually addressed, you or someone else who has then simply passed sent them on to you?
-
Apologies i forgot the RINGO receipt:
(https://i.imgur.com/LDrTOhF.jpg)
-
Hi all,
Thanks in advance for consideration of this issue.
On the 9 May this year i went for an appointment and parked in a car park i had used before in Paignton. I paid for my ticket using RINGO, at this particular car park you stop your parking session on RINGO when you return to your car and you are charged appropriately. On returning to my car i found there was a PCN on my car. I thought that this must be an error and i appealed it on line with RINGO receipt as evidence that i had paid (all dcumentation below). I heard noting back until an NTO arrived, the NTO said i had to appeal in writing which i did and included a printed copy of the RINGO receipt. Again i heard nothing until yesterday when a Charge Certificate arrived.
I went online and was able to look at the original notice and you will see there have been several appeals which is probably due to the fact that the vehicle is a lease car through the NHS, I work as a Community Mental Health Nurse.
Further review of the photos taken by the warden and review of the car park on google seems to indicate that i had parked in a limited wait free parking space in the car park and suggests that there is a sign in the car park that indicates these spaces but nothing in the spaces themselves.
I am at a bit of a loss now as i suppose technically the original PCN was valid however i appealed this in good faith and was unaware of the limited time parking spaces.
Any advice welcome, i hope i've included enough documentation for this to be looked at.
As an aside the charge certificate only arrived yesterday but is dated the 30 September, i have kept the envelope though in case that makes a difference.
(https://i.imgur.com/ds7wi19.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ErYDcUR.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/20VjrOV.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/zrmIxhw.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/kDI9i6d.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/d0FLtpR.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/hvfwDYm.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Tn498fU.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/DOWKTVk.jpg)