Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Private parking tickets => Topic started by: mdar50743 on September 07, 2024, 10:25:04 pm

Title: Re: PCN EV Charging McDonald’s Fine
Post by: DWMB2 on October 24, 2024, 01:38:14 pm
I note in the most recent email you have shared from Hertz, they say that some payments may still be on the way to you. With this in mind, it may be sensible to wait a few days, then work out exactly how much you have received back, then compare this with how much Hertz say they have refunded you, and how much you believe you are due.
Title: Re: PCN EV Charging McDonald’s Fine
Post by: b789 on October 24, 2024, 01:25:57 pm
So, you have 1 "penalty" for an "offence" from a council and 15 invoices from unregulated private companies. I really don't know why you are still referring to the as "fines" as it only serves to solidify Hertz's own lack of understanding.

How could you accumulate so many parking charges over such a short period of time?

This bit is crucial in the response you received:

Quote
Some of these will be sent to us for payment, which we will pay and recover from you by way of reimbursement. Alternatively, we may be required to provide your details to the relevant authority or other third party, who will contact you directly.  Where we pass your details to a third party this will be in accordance with our Privacy Policy.

All the parking charges (PCNs) should have had liability transferred to you by Hertz according to PoFA section 13. Once that had been done, there would be no more liability to Hertz and it would have been up to the PPC to issue you with an NtH and you could have dealt with it.

If Hertz paid any of the NtKs (PCNs) they received from APCOA or MET, then they have breached the CRA. There was simply no reason for them to do so and if they did, they removed any possibility of you appealing the PCN.

As for the Admin charges, that is between you and Hertz.
Title: Re: PCN EV Charging McDonald’s Fine
Post by: mdar50743 on October 24, 2024, 10:47:17 am
You've got to love "...gotten it."  ::)

Rental Agreement: https://beige-gelya-23.tiiny.site/

This is the email I wrote to Hertz and attached PDFs:

Dear Hertz,
I hope this message finds you well. I am writing to inform you that I have compiled a complete and detailed list of all fines accumulated during my recent rental period. Please find the list attached for your review and a complete breakdown below:

7 Fines from APCOA:
APCOA
1ST September 2024
HF 1169 3881
 
AOCOA
4TH September 2024
HF11641298
 
APCOA
10TH September 2024
HF11693881
 
AOCOA
18 August 2024
HF 1153 277A

AOCOA
17th August 2024
 HF 1152 998A

APCOA
26th August 2024
HF11529984

AOCOA
26 August 2024
HF 1164 1298

===============================================================

1 Fine from Hammersmith And Fulham Council

Hammersmith And Fulham Council
28 August 2024
HZ8435138A

===============================================================

8 Fines from MET Services Parking


MET Services Parking
Date of Convention: 11th August 2024
AB30120109
 
MET Services Parking
Date of Convention: 13th August 2024
AB30131882
 
MET Services Parking
Date of Convention: 14th August 2024
AB30140958
 
MET Services Parking
Date of Convention: 16th August 2024
AB30153134
 
MET Services Parking
Date of Convention: 17th August 2024
AB30161905
 
MET Services Parking
Date of Convention: 18th August 2024
AB30169205
 
MET Services Parking
Date of Convention: 19th August 2024
AB30179196
 
MET Services Parking
Date of Convention: 24th August 2024
AB30314058

===============================================================

I have accumulated 16 Fines only received the sum of £545. That is well below what I legally should have received. You have charged me an admin fee to every fine which I never had to chance to appeal. Hertz has charged me £95 for every single fine.
That is 16 fines at £95 each the total refund of £1520 has not been met.

10 Sep
£150
 
27 Sep
£95
£75
 
03 October
£75
£75
£75

If you are still unable to comprehend the seriousness of this issue, I suggest you escalate this matter to your superiors or, if necessary, directly to Hertz's legal advisors. I will not hesitate to initiate litigation to recover the funds you have unlawfully taken from me, as well as any additional costs incurred.

This is my final request for a full refund of the amount Hertz wrongly paid on my behalf. I also demand that Hertz conduct an internal review to ensure this incompetence does not continue to affect other customers.

I expect a prompt and appropriate response.
Yours sincerely,
xxxx xxxx


I got a reply from Hertz from Laura Morgan, Operations Accountant Manager:

Dear Mr xxxx,
 
Thank you for your email, this has been passed to myself to review.
 
Please find attached the rental agreement for your PCO vehicle with us. We would like to highlight the relevant terms with regards to the traffic offences process.
 
Please refer to point 16
“By signing this rental agreement I agree that while the rental agreement is in force I will be liable as owner/hirer of the vehicle, or any replacement vehicle, for any fixed penalty offence, penalty charge notice, notice to owner, parking charge notice for that vehicle under s66 Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988, Schedule 6 Road Traffic Act 1991, Traffic Management Act 2004, Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 and any other relevant legislation”
 
Page 8
“FINES, TOLLS, AND OTHER CHARGES You are responsible for all fines, road tolls, congestion charges and other similar charges (including parking fines or charges) incurred in relation to the vehicle during your rental. Some of these will be sent to us for payment, which we will pay and recover from you by way of reimbursement. Alternatively, we may be required to provide your details to the relevant authority or other third party, who will contact you directly.  Where we pass your details to a third party this will be in accordance with our Privacy Policy.”
 
As we are a hire firm, we have the choice to either pay the offence or transfer the liability as per the statement in page 8 we pay our fines. This does not prevent you from appealing the ticket once it has been paid, as we supply you with a letter of authority from us to which you can then discuss the offence with the authority who send us the original ticket.
 
The rental agreement also allows us to remove funds accordingly as the first paragraph states
“By signing the Rental Agreement, you expressly accept all of the terms and conditions contained in this document and the Rental Terms. You expressly authorise us to securely store your payment card details and use them for charges incurred in connection with this rental, including any requested extension, without further authorisation from you.”
 
Please note our process is automated and our car control team pay all fines, and this is system driven therefore at this moment in time this process is unable to change. However, this process will be reviewed in due course.
 
I have reviewed the refunds, and I can see that we have billed and refunded the following:
 
9 fines @ £95.00 = £855.00 (Please note some of these fines were refunded yesterday therefore is within the banking process)
4 fines @ £75.00 = £300.00 (Please note some of these fines were refunded yesterday therefore is within the banking process)
1 fine @ £39.37 = £39.37
Total refund = £1194.37
 
There is only one fine which is left as not refunded on our system with is from Fulham council – please can you advise the outcome of this appeal.
 
We hope this resolves your query.
 
Many Thanks
 
Laura Morgan
Operations Accountant Manager
Tel 01895 553520
Web: www.hertz.com
Email: laura.morgan@hertz.com


I honestly think she completely doesn't understand the whole point of these chain of emails. There is only one fine which is left as not refunded on our system with is from Fulham council – please can you advise the outcome of this appeal. How can I tell her the outcome of an appeal if the process is taken away from me? Your really eloquent email reply made sense and made a very compelling case.

I have accumulated 16 Fines only received the sum of £545. Hertz has charged me £95 for every single fine.

That is 16 fines - £60 for the Fine and £29.17 for Admin Fee + £5.83 VAT = £95

The total refund of £1520.

Could you please advise what I can say to her?
Title: Re: PCN EV Charging McDonald’s Fine
Post by: mdar50743 on October 15, 2024, 12:26:54 pm
You've got to love "...gotten it."  ::)

Thank you everyone. I will keep you updated and will let you know when I "gotten" whole of my refund  ;D
Title: Re: PCN EV Charging McDonald’s Fine
Post by: b789 on October 14, 2024, 03:14:53 pm
You've got to love "...gotten it."  ::)
Title: Re: PCN EV Charging McDonald’s Fine
Post by: DWMB2 on October 14, 2024, 10:04:26 am
The wording suggests it should hit your bank imminently, so perhaps wait a few days to see what you receive.
Title: Re: PCN EV Charging McDonald’s Fine
Post by: mdar50743 on October 14, 2024, 09:32:32 am
Here is a suggested response, subject to us seeing the applicable section of the Hire Agreement as mentioned above:

Quote
Dear Nisola,

Your recent response regarding the payment of a private parking charge notice (PCN) highlights a severe misunderstanding of the nature of the charge, and I am astonished by Hertz’s complete failure to grasp the fundamental differences between a PCN and a statutory fine or penalty issued for an offence by a local authority.

Let me be unequivocally clear: a PCN issued by a private parking company is not a "fine" or "penalty" in any legal sense. It is an invoice for an alleged breach of contract. There is no "offence" involved, no "law" has been broken, and no statutory authority is involved. By paying this speculative invoice on my behalf, Hertz has effectively accepted liability for a matter in which no liability existed on my part, and in doing so, has forfeited my right to appeal.

All Hertz had to do was transfer liability to me, the hirer, as required under PoFA paragraph 13(2). This simple action would have been the end of the matter as far as Hertz was concerned. Yet, instead of following this straightforward process, you have chosen to pay the charge directly, thereby making Hertz liable and eliminating any chance of appeal. This is a clear failure on Hertz’s part to comply with well-established legal procedures for handling private parking charges.

The utter nonsense in your response, particularly the following paragraph, is both infuriating and demonstrates a complete lack of understanding:

"Furthermore, to be a fair vendor, we send the fines across to you as soon as we get them so that you can appeal. You will be refunded for each appeal you win. So, anytime we send a fine you do not agree with, let us know and we will send you the appeal document. Unfortunately, we have to go through the process of sending the fines to you and you request for an appeal because we can't appeal on your behalf as you are the driver. W.e wouldn't know what you were doing in the location where the driving law was broken."

This statement is not only completely irrelevant but also demonstrates a shocking level of ignorance about the nature of a PCN. There is no "driving law" involved, no "offence" was committed, and a PCN is not a statutory fine. The process described is utterly unnecessary and has caused needless confusion. All you had to do was transfer liability under PoFA, and this nonsense could have been avoided.

I would also like to remind you that the British Vehicle Rental and Leasing Association (BVRLA) guidelines clearly distinguish between private parking charges and statutory penalties or fines. These guidelines state that parking charges are private matters, not enforceable by statutory authorities, and therefore should not be treated in the same way as fines or penalties. Your decision to pay this charge without transferring liability to me as the hirer is in direct contravention of these guidelines, further highlighting Hertz’s negligence in this matter.

Additionally, this action breaches the Consumer Rights Act (CRA) 2015. As mentioned previously, Section 62 prohibits terms that put consumers at an unfair disadvantage, and Section 57 prevents me from bearing costs I am not liable for under the agreement. You have extended the scope of the agreement beyond what was contractually agreed, and I am now holding Hertz liable for the money you have wrongfully charged me.

If you are still unable to comprehend the seriousness of this issue, I suggest you escalate this matter to your superiors or, if necessary, directly to Hertz's legal advisors. I will not hesitate to initiate litigation to recover the funds you have unlawfully taken from me, as well as any additional costs incurred.

This is my final request for a full refund of the amount Hertz wrongly paid on my behalf. I also demand that Hertz conduct an internal review to ensure this incompetence does not continue to affect other customers.

I expect a prompt and appropriate response.

Yours sincerely,

Thank you so much once again for this really amazing reply to Hertz. It was really appreciated and really well put together.

I have got a reply form Hertz but I have questions:

Dear xxxx,

Thank you for contacting Hertz TNC.

We understand how you feel, and we are working very hard to transfer the fines' liability to the driver.

Your opinion and satisfaction mean a lot to us, and we are working to fulfill them.

I have processed your refund. Please, let me know if/when you have gotten it.

Please, let us know if you need further assistance.

Kind regards,
Nisola


When they say they are processing the refund, I am assuming that is the whole 8 fines totally £800? Should I reply asking them to clarify what refund they are giving back?
Title: Re: PCN EV Charging McDonald’s Fine
Post by: mdar50743 on September 19, 2024, 11:58:36 am
Well, this is a bit damning for Hertz:

Quote
FINES, TOLLS AND OTHER CHARGES

You are responsible for all fines, road tolls, congestion charges and other similar charges (including parking fines or charges) incurred in relation to the vehicle during your rental. Some of these will be sent to us for payment, which we will pay and recover from you by way of reimbursement. Alternatively, we may be required to provide your details to the relevant authority or other third party, who will contact you directly.

Section 16:

Quote
By signing this rental agreement I agree that while the rental agreement is in force I will be liable as owner/hirer of the vehicle, or any replacement vehicle, for any fixed penalty offence, penalty charge notice, notice to owner, parking charge notice for that vehicle under s66 Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988, Schedule 6 Road Traffic Act 1991, Traffic Management Act 2004, Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 and any other relevant legislation.

The mention of both "parking charge notices" and the Protection of Freedoms Act (PoFA) in Section 16 of the agreement makes a significant difference. Here’s how it affects the situation:

PoFA Requirements:

Since Section 16 refers to both parking charge notices and PoFA, it acknowledges that Hertz must handle such notices in compliance with the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. Under PoFA paragraph 13, if a parking charge notice is issued by a private parking company, Hertz has the option to transfer liability to the hirer (you), allowing you to take responsibility for the notice and, crucially, to appeal if necessary.

Failure to Follow PoFA:

Despite this reference to PoFA, Hertz did not follow the correct legal process outlined in PoFA paragraph 13. Instead of transferring liability to you as the hirer, which would have been the appropriate course of action, they directly paid the charge. This payment means that liability was admitted, effectively removing your ability to contest the charge or appeal it through proper channels.

Contractual Obligations Under PoFA:

By failing to comply with PoFA, Hertz has breached its own rental agreement. The agreement refers to PoFA, which outlines a clear legal mechanism for transferring liability in cases involving private parking charge notices. Hertz should have relied on this mechanism to transfer liability to you, rather than pay the charge themselves and then pass the cost on to you without giving you the chance to contest the charge.

No Obligation to Pay Immediately:

PoFA does not require Hertz to pay a private PCN immediately upon receiving it. Instead, they should have passed the notice to you, allowing you to respond or appeal within the 28-day period specified under PoFA. By paying the PCN directly, Hertz has deprived you of your legal rights under this Act.

Key Argument:

Since Hertz acknowledged PoFA in the agreement but failed to follow its procedures, they have breached both their contractual obligations and your legal rights under PoFA. Their payment of the PCN without transferring liability is a direct violation of the Act, and this action should never have taken place.

Here is a slightly amended version of the response you should be sending to Nisola:

Quote
Dear Nisola,

Your recent response regarding the payment of a private parking charge notice (PCN) demonstrates a severe misunderstanding of both the nature of the charge and Hertz’s contractual obligations under the hire agreement. I am truly astounded by Hertz’s total failure to comprehend the basic legal framework surrounding PCNs issued by private parking companies.

Let me clarify: a PCN issued by a private parking company is not a "fine" or "penalty" in any legal sense. It is an invoice for an alleged breach of contract. There is no "offence" involved, no "law" has been broken, and no statutory authority is involved. By paying this speculative invoice on my behalf, Hertz has accepted liability for a matter in which no liability existed on my part, and in doing so, has forfeited my right to appeal.

All Hertz had to do was transfer liability to me, the hirer, as required under PoFA paragraph 13. This simple action would have been the end of the matter as far as Hertz was concerned. Instead of following this straightforward process, you chose to pay the charge directly, removing my ability to appeal. This is a clear failure on Hertz’s part to comply with both PoFA and your own rental agreement.

Section 16 of your agreement explicitly mentions both "parking charge notices" and the Protection of Freedoms Act (PoFA). This clearly indicates that Hertz is aware of the requirements under PoFA, including the obligation to transfer liability to the hirer in the event of a private parking charge. By failing to transfer liability, Hertz has breached both the agreement and PoFA itself.

The nonsensical paragraph in your response is particularly infuriating: "Furthermore, to be a fair vendor, we send the fines across to you as soon as we get them so that you can appeal. You will be refunded for each appeal you win. So, anytime we send a fine you do not agree with, let us know and we will send you the appeal document. Unfortunately, we have to go through the process of sending the fines to you and you request for an appeal because we can't appeal on your behalf as you are the driver. We wouldn’t know what you were doing in the location where the driving law was broken."

This statement shows an utter lack of understanding. No "driving law" has been broken, no "fine" was issued, and Hertz had no obligation to pay a private parking invoice on my behalf. All you had to do was transfer the liability, which is both the legal requirement and the appropriate action under PoFA.

Furthermore, the British Vehicle Rental and Leasing Association (BVRLA) guidelines clearly distinguish between private parking charges and statutory penalties or fines. Your decision to pay this charge without transferring liability to me as the hirer is in direct contravention of these guidelines, further highlighting Hertz’s negligence in this matter.

Additionally, this action breaches the Consumer Rights Act (CRA) 2015. As mentioned previously, Section 62 prohibits terms that put consumers at an unfair disadvantage, and Section 57 prevents me from bearing costs I am not liable for under the agreement. You have extended the scope of the agreement beyond what was contractually agreed, and I am now holding Hertz liable for the money you have wrongfully charged me.

If you are still unable to comprehend the seriousness of this issue, I suggest you escalate this matter to your superiors or, if necessary, directly to Hertz's legal advisors. I will not hesitate to initiate litigation to recover the funds you have unlawfully taken from me, as well as any additional costs incurred.

This is my final request for a full refund of the amount Hertz wrongly paid on my behalf. I also demand that Hertz conduct an internal review to ensure this incompetence does not continue to affect other customers.

I expect a prompt and appropriate response.

Yours sincerely,

Thank you so much. I will send your reply to Hertz and report back if and when I get a reply.
Title: Re: PCN EV Charging McDonald’s Fine
Post by: b789 on September 18, 2024, 02:33:04 pm
So, now that you've pointed out what you consider to be an error or mistake, what do YOU propose that the OP should do?
Title: Re: PCN EV Charging McDonald’s Fine
Post by: H C Andersen on September 17, 2024, 09:59:46 pm
By failing to transfer liability, Hertz has breached both the agreement and PoFA itself.

?

IMO...
IF a keeper which is a vehicle hire company wishes to relieve itself of liability then it may by following a few simple steps set out in PoFA.

It's not obligatory, it's optional.

If a PPC wishes to pursue the hirer then it may, but it's not obligatory, it's optional.

Similarly, if a PPC wishes to offer 'arrangements for the resolution of disputes or complaints', these are also optional under PoFA.

There's no breach of PoFA should a hire company choose to pay a parking charge.

Also, as regards whether an appeal must be considered if payment is accepted, this changes in October (with the Single CoP for PCNs issued after the effective date) so I cannot see the benefit of going into such detail with Hertz now.

Whether MET would now consider an appeal after payment is for them to decide, there's no catch-all situation, it's on an individual basis. Edit - as regards their CoP and in accordance with whatever the PCN(which isn't available to view) states.

Title: Re: PCN EV Charging McDonald’s Fine
Post by: b789 on September 17, 2024, 06:27:26 pm
Well, this is a bit damning for Hertz:

Quote
FINES, TOLLS AND OTHER CHARGES

You are responsible for all fines, road tolls, congestion charges and other similar charges (including parking fines or charges) incurred in relation to the vehicle during your rental. Some of these will be sent to us for payment, which we will pay and recover from you by way of reimbursement. Alternatively, we may be required to provide your details to the relevant authority or other third party, who will contact you directly.

Section 16:

Quote
By signing this rental agreement I agree that while the rental agreement is in force I will be liable as owner/hirer of the vehicle, or any replacement vehicle, for any fixed penalty offence, penalty charge notice, notice to owner, parking charge notice for that vehicle under s66 Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988, Schedule 6 Road Traffic Act 1991, Traffic Management Act 2004, Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 and any other relevant legislation.

The mention of both "parking charge notices" and the Protection of Freedoms Act (PoFA) in Section 16 of the agreement makes a significant difference. Here’s how it affects the situation:

PoFA Requirements:

Since Section 16 refers to both parking charge notices and PoFA, it acknowledges that Hertz must handle such notices in compliance with the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. Under PoFA paragraph 13, if a parking charge notice is issued by a private parking company, Hertz has the option to transfer liability to the hirer (you), allowing you to take responsibility for the notice and, crucially, to appeal if necessary.

Failure to Follow PoFA:

Despite this reference to PoFA, Hertz did not follow the correct legal process outlined in PoFA paragraph 13. Instead of transferring liability to you as the hirer, which would have been the appropriate course of action, they directly paid the charge. This payment means that liability was admitted, effectively removing your ability to contest the charge or appeal it through proper channels.

Contractual Obligations Under PoFA:

By failing to comply with PoFA, Hertz has breached its own rental agreement. The agreement refers to PoFA, which outlines a clear legal mechanism for transferring liability in cases involving private parking charge notices. Hertz should have relied on this mechanism to transfer liability to you, rather than pay the charge themselves and then pass the cost on to you without giving you the chance to contest the charge.

No Obligation to Pay Immediately:

PoFA does not require Hertz to pay a private PCN immediately upon receiving it. Instead, they should have passed the notice to you, allowing you to respond or appeal within the 28-day period specified under PoFA. By paying the PCN directly, Hertz has deprived you of your legal rights under this Act.

Key Argument:

Since Hertz acknowledged PoFA in the agreement but failed to follow its procedures, they have breached both their contractual obligations and your legal rights under PoFA. Their payment of the PCN without transferring liability is a direct violation of the Act, and this action should never have taken place.

Here is a slightly amended version of the response you should be sending to Nisola:

Quote
Dear Nisola,

Your recent response regarding the payment of a private parking charge notice (PCN) demonstrates a severe misunderstanding of both the nature of the charge and Hertz’s contractual obligations under the hire agreement. I am truly astounded by Hertz’s total failure to comprehend the basic legal framework surrounding PCNs issued by private parking companies.

Let me clarify: a PCN issued by a private parking company is not a "fine" or "penalty" in any legal sense. It is an invoice for an alleged breach of contract. There is no "offence" involved, no "law" has been broken, and no statutory authority is involved. By paying this speculative invoice on my behalf, Hertz has accepted liability for a matter in which no liability existed on my part, and in doing so, has forfeited my right to appeal.

All Hertz had to do was transfer liability to me, the hirer, as required under PoFA paragraph 13. This simple action would have been the end of the matter as far as Hertz was concerned. Instead of following this straightforward process, you chose to pay the charge directly, removing my ability to appeal. This is a clear failure on Hertz’s part to comply with both PoFA and your own rental agreement.

Section 16 of your agreement explicitly mentions both "parking charge notices" and the Protection of Freedoms Act (PoFA). This clearly indicates that Hertz is aware of the requirements under PoFA, including the obligation to transfer liability to the hirer in the event of a private parking charge. By failing to transfer liability, Hertz has breached both the agreement and PoFA itself.

The nonsensical paragraph in your response is particularly infuriating: "Furthermore, to be a fair vendor, we send the fines across to you as soon as we get them so that you can appeal. You will be refunded for each appeal you win. So, anytime we send a fine you do not agree with, let us know and we will send you the appeal document. Unfortunately, we have to go through the process of sending the fines to you and you request for an appeal because we can't appeal on your behalf as you are the driver. We wouldn’t know what you were doing in the location where the driving law was broken."

This statement shows an utter lack of understanding. No "driving law" has been broken, no "fine" was issued, and Hertz had no obligation to pay a private parking invoice on my behalf. All you had to do was transfer the liability, which is both the legal requirement and the appropriate action under PoFA.

Furthermore, the British Vehicle Rental and Leasing Association (BVRLA) guidelines clearly distinguish between private parking charges and statutory penalties or fines. Your decision to pay this charge without transferring liability to me as the hirer is in direct contravention of these guidelines, further highlighting Hertz’s negligence in this matter.

Additionally, this action breaches the Consumer Rights Act (CRA) 2015. As mentioned previously, Section 62 prohibits terms that put consumers at an unfair disadvantage, and Section 57 prevents me from bearing costs I am not liable for under the agreement. You have extended the scope of the agreement beyond what was contractually agreed, and I am now holding Hertz liable for the money you have wrongfully charged me.

If you are still unable to comprehend the seriousness of this issue, I suggest you escalate this matter to your superiors or, if necessary, directly to Hertz's legal advisors. I will not hesitate to initiate litigation to recover the funds you have unlawfully taken from me, as well as any additional costs incurred.

This is my final request for a full refund of the amount Hertz wrongly paid on my behalf. I also demand that Hertz conduct an internal review to ensure this incompetence does not continue to affect other customers.

I expect a prompt and appropriate response.

Yours sincerely,
Title: Re: PCN EV Charging McDonald’s Fine
Post by: mdar50743 on September 17, 2024, 05:49:30 pm
Before I can assist, you have not shown us the clause in your Hire Agreement that covers how Hertz will handle PCNs. Please show us the wording of that clause.

Thank you for your reply and your draft email.

The Hire Agreement is on this link:  https://beige-gelya-23.tiiny.site
Title: Re: PCN EV Charging McDonald’s Fine
Post by: DWMB2 on September 17, 2024, 04:45:34 pm
Standing ovation for that letter to Hertz.
And a slow hand clap for the letter from Hertz  ;D
Title: Re: PCN EV Charging McDonald’s Fine
Post by: stamfordman on September 17, 2024, 04:40:29 pm
Standing ovation for that letter to Hertz.
Title: Re: PCN EV Charging McDonald’s Fine
Post by: b789 on September 17, 2024, 10:51:07 am
Here is a suggested response, subject to us seeing the applicable section of the Hire Agreement as mentioned above:

Quote
Dear Nisola,

Your recent response regarding the payment of a private parking charge notice (PCN) highlights a severe misunderstanding of the nature of the charge, and I am astonished by Hertz’s complete failure to grasp the fundamental differences between a PCN and a statutory fine or penalty issued for an offence by a local authority.

Let me be unequivocally clear: a PCN issued by a private parking company is not a "fine" or "penalty" in any legal sense. It is an invoice for an alleged breach of contract. There is no "offence" involved, no "law" has been broken, and no statutory authority is involved. By paying this speculative invoice on my behalf, Hertz has effectively accepted liability for a matter in which no liability existed on my part, and in doing so, has forfeited my right to appeal.

All Hertz had to do was transfer liability to me, the hirer, as required under PoFA paragraph 13(2). This simple action would have been the end of the matter as far as Hertz was concerned. Yet, instead of following this straightforward process, you have chosen to pay the charge directly, thereby making Hertz liable and eliminating any chance of appeal. This is a clear failure on Hertz’s part to comply with well-established legal procedures for handling private parking charges.

The utter nonsense in your response, particularly the following paragraph, is both infuriating and demonstrates a complete lack of understanding:

"Furthermore, to be a fair vendor, we send the fines across to you as soon as we get them so that you can appeal. You will be refunded for each appeal you win. So, anytime we send a fine you do not agree with, let us know and we will send you the appeal document. Unfortunately, we have to go through the process of sending the fines to you and you request for an appeal because we can't appeal on your behalf as you are the driver. W.e wouldn't know what you were doing in the location where the driving law was broken."

This statement is not only completely irrelevant but also demonstrates a shocking level of ignorance about the nature of a PCN. There is no "driving law" involved, no "offence" was committed, and a PCN is not a statutory fine. The process described is utterly unnecessary and has caused needless confusion. All you had to do was transfer liability under PoFA, and this nonsense could have been avoided.

I would also like to remind you that the British Vehicle Rental and Leasing Association (BVRLA) guidelines clearly distinguish between private parking charges and statutory penalties or fines. These guidelines state that parking charges are private matters, not enforceable by statutory authorities, and therefore should not be treated in the same way as fines or penalties. Your decision to pay this charge without transferring liability to me as the hirer is in direct contravention of these guidelines, further highlighting Hertz’s negligence in this matter.

Additionally, this action breaches the Consumer Rights Act (CRA) 2015. As mentioned previously, Section 62 prohibits terms that put consumers at an unfair disadvantage, and Section 57 prevents me from bearing costs I am not liable for under the agreement. You have extended the scope of the agreement beyond what was contractually agreed, and I am now holding Hertz liable for the money you have wrongfully charged me.

If you are still unable to comprehend the seriousness of this issue, I suggest you escalate this matter to your superiors or, if necessary, directly to Hertz's legal advisors. I will not hesitate to initiate litigation to recover the funds you have unlawfully taken from me, as well as any additional costs incurred.

This is my final request for a full refund of the amount Hertz wrongly paid on my behalf. I also demand that Hertz conduct an internal review to ensure this incompetence does not continue to affect other customers.

I expect a prompt and appropriate response.

Yours sincerely,
Title: Re: PCN EV Charging McDonald’s Fine
Post by: b789 on September 17, 2024, 10:41:00 am
Before I can assist, you have not shown us the clause in your Hire Agreement that covers how Hertz will handle PCNs. Please show us the wording of that clause.
Title: Re: PCN EV Charging McDonald’s Fine
Post by: mdar50743 on September 17, 2024, 10:18:13 am
Thank you everyone for your replies. I just got an email from Hertz asking them to explain the process to appeal.

Can anyone please help me to formulate a appeal letter for the case I have experienced. Just to elaborate, I was at a local McDonald’s charging my EV car longer than than 60 mins permitted and I stayed for 102 mins.

Dear xxxxx,

Thank you for contacting Hertz TNC.

I understand how you feel about the fines and how overwhelming it can be.

However, we have to pay them to local authorities as the car is registered in our name. The fines' amounts will increase if we don't pay quickly, and we will like to avoid that or the burden it can bring to you as a client.

Furthermore, to be a fair vendor, we send the fines across to you as soon as we get them so that you can appeal. You will be refunded for each appeal you win. So, anytime we send a fine you do not agree with, let us know and we will send you the appeal document. Unfortunately, we have to go through the process of sending the fines to you and you request for an appeal because we can't appeal on your behalf as you are the driver. W.e wouldn't know what you were doing in the location where the driving law was broken

The process involved in appealing a fine goes thus:

We send you a letter to indicate you can appeal your fine on the behalf of Hertz.
You will also write another letter detailing the reasons you believe you should not be fined.
You will send both letters to the local authorities. Alternatively, you may not write a letter. You can go there in person to plead your case.

They will give you the verdict which determines if we will refund your fine or not.
Please, let me know if you need further assistance.

Kind regards,
Nisola
Title: Re: PCN EV Charging McDonald’s Fine
Post by: DWMB2 on September 10, 2024, 02:19:46 pm
For now, your only issue is with Hertz.
Exactly this - from MET's perspective the case(s) are closed, they've issued Hertz with invoices, and been paid.
Title: Re: PCN EV Charging McDonald’s Fine
Post by: b789 on September 10, 2024, 01:36:36 pm
It is not and never is a “FINE”. Please try and get that into your head.

It is NOT any of these things:

1. FINE
2. PENALTY

A fine or a penalty only ever apply to an OFFENCE committed under statutory law. An alleged debt over an invoice is a matter of civil law. This whole scenario is an issue of civil contract law.

Fines and penalties are matter covered under criminal law.

I think HCA is asking “where has the PCN gone” meaning that the link to the image of it you posted no longer works.

I really don’t know how much clearer we can make it for you. You either fight for your lawful rights or you give in and suck up the loss of your money.

It has been explained what you need to do to recover the money already taken and what you need to do to protect yourself from further loss.

Hertz have not complied with PoFA or the CRA. MET have not (yet) breached anything. For now, your only issue is with Hertz.
Title: Re: PCN EV Charging McDonald’s Fine
Post by: mdar50743 on September 10, 2024, 12:07:14 pm
Where's the PCN gone??

The PCN goes straight to Hertz (the hirer). I don't receive the Fine, as per their T&C's they automatically pay the fines and charge a admin fee.
Title: Re: PCN EV Charging McDonald’s Fine
Post by: b789 on September 10, 2024, 12:48:29 am
There are other hire companies besides Hertz. If you can get the transaction reversed, then you should do so. If you can’t, you can always cancel the debit card if there are other pending PCNs.

If you can’t get your money back for whatever reason, then you would have to sue Hertz yourself for the money they have unlawfully taken from you. This is a straight forward process and is done online through the Money Claim On Line (MCOL) website. You would need to send Hertz a Letter of Claim (LoC) giving them 14 days to refund the money or else you will file a claim in the county court.

If they fail to refund the money, you would then file a claim for the amount they owe you, presumably £100 plus the admin fee (£45?).  For a claim under £300, the fee is £35 and if you are successful, you get the amount claimed and the fee back.

Title: Re: PCN EV Charging McDonald’s Fine
Post by: H C Andersen on September 09, 2024, 09:52:56 pm
Where's the PCN gone??
Title: Re: PCN EV Charging McDonald’s Fine
Post by: mdar50743 on September 09, 2024, 08:59:44 pm
@mdar50743 Have you approached McDonalds, they may have the power to instruct MET to cancel. There was a recent occurrence where they have been receptive.

I did ask the Manager at McDonald’s and he said I should ask Instavolt to ask for evidence of the charge and submit a appeal.

Where should I go for approaching McDonald’s? Is it the actual McDonald’s or Corporate email?
Title: Re: PCN EV Charging McDonald’s Fine
Post by: mdar50743 on September 09, 2024, 08:56:41 pm
I agree it is an unfair term.

The issue becomes a practical one. Are you aware of:-

- Any hire company accept the argument and either refunding or not charging.
- A credit provider acception a section 75 claim.
- An FoS decision in favour.
- A successful claim for reimbursement from the hire company via court.

The practical problem being the hire company will just take it from the credit card if they don't transfer liability (usually on the fallacious basis of "we were doing you a favour to stop it escalating"). Then they have the money and one of the remedies above will be required.

An alternative strategy might be to cancel the card to attempt to prevent collection (noting that some banking groups attempt to give themselves the right to just debit any ingroup new card).

At least this way a victim can simply wait until a claim issued and defend it.

It's a most unsatisfactory state of affairs.

There are many issues with my case:

1) I have used a Debit Card (which Hertz do accept). At the time, I didn’t have enough funds to use my Credit Card. As per their T&C’s they have already charged my account.

2) Section 75 can’t be used in this case as I have a Debit Card. However, there’s  “reverse the transaction” and get my money back via chargeback. If I did go down this route, I may have problems with Hertz if I want to hire again?
Title: Re: PCN EV Charging McDonald’s Fine
Post by: The Rookie on September 09, 2024, 03:24:26 pm
In addition you could/should complain to the DVLA, your details have been requested under the 'KADOE contract' which is for PARKING CHARGES.  As the sign makes clear the car wasn't 'parking' (ahem) but 'charging' the details shouldn't have been requested under that contract.

KADOE contract
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a81a0c7e5274a2e8ab55036/Annex_A_-_KADOE_Fee_Paying_Contract_V4.pdf
Title: Re: PCN EV Charging McDonald’s Fine
Post by: b789 on September 09, 2024, 12:06:02 pm
How have they charged you? Have they taken the money from your credit card? If so, you raise a dispute with the credit card company and they will charge back the funds while they investigate.

You also raise a dispute with Hertz that what they have paid is not and never was a "Penalty" Charge Notice. Challenge them to show you the word "Penalty" anywhere on the NtK they received. Challenge them to show you the words "fine" or "offence" too. Ask them in what way is MET parking an "authority" that can issue a "Penalty" Charge Notice.

Point out to Hertz that what was received was a "PARKING" Charge Notice. It is not a "penalty" or a "fine" from any "authority". It is simply an invoice from an UNREGULATED private parking company.

You have still not shown us the exact wording from your hire agreement that mentions parking charges. No matter what it says, by paying the PCN, Herts have removed your right to appeal and get it cancelled. They are members of the BVRLA and there are guidelines they must follow.

Use the following as a guide on how you should format your complaint to Hertz:

Quote
BVRLA guidelines for hire car companies regarding parking charges from unregulated private parking companies emphasise proper handling and transferring of liability. In situations where a hire company like Hertz mistakenly pays a Parking Charge Notice (PCN), creates significant legal issues under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 (CRA).

1. Transferring Liability, Not Paying the Charge:

Notice to Keeper (NtK): When the hire company receives an NtK, their responsibility under the Protection of Freedoms Act (PoFA) 2012 is to transfer liability to the hirer by providing the hirer's details and relevant documents (such as a copy of the rental agreement).

The BVRLA advises that hire companies should follow this legal process and not pay the parking charge on behalf of the hirer. Paying the PCN deprives the hirer of their right to appeal, and is especially problematic if the NtK explicitly mentions that payment extinguishes the right to contest the charge.

2. Right to Appeal:

If the hire company pays the PCN and tells the hirer they can appeal for a refund, this is in complete contradiction with the NtK's terms stating that payment voids the right to appeal. This would place the hirer in an unfair position, potentially violating Part 1, Chapter 4, Section 57(4)(c) of the CRA 2015, which prevents a company from putting the consumer (hirer) at a disadvantage for pursuing their rights (in this case, the right to appeal the PCN).

3. Unfair Terms and CRA 2015 Compliance:

Any clause in a hire agreement allowing the hire company to pay a PCN without allowing the hirer a chance to appeal is deemed unfair under the CRA 2015. Section 57(4)(c) explicitly prohibits contractual terms that put a consumer at a disadvantage when exercising their rights, such as appealing a PCN.

The BVRLA guidelines advise hire companies to ensure their contracts do not contain unfair terms and to allow hirers the opportunity to exercise their appeal rights, especially when dealing with unregulated PPCs. Unregulated PPCs often issue questionable charges, which hirers may be able to contest successfully.

4. Administration Fees:

While BVRLA members may charge an administration fee for handling parking charges, they must still follow the law in transferring liability, ensuring that the hirer has the opportunity to appeal the charge before it is paid.

5. Best Practices for Dealing with Unregulated PPCs:

The BVRLA stresses that hire companies should handle parking charges from unregulated PPCs cautiously. They should follow all legal procedures to ensure that hirers are not unfairly disadvantaged.

Unregulated PPCs, whether they are part of the British Parking Association (BPA) or International Parking Community (IPC), operate outside formal regulation and their charges may be disputable. As such, hirers must be given every opportunity to challenge these charges before they are paid.

The BVRLA guidelines encourage hire companies to avoid paying PCNs on behalf of hirers and instead transfer liability correctly under PoFA. Doing otherwise violates the CRA 2015 by depriving hirers of their legal right to appeal, particularly in cases where payment precludes further contestation.

Put together a complaint to Hertz and advise them if they are still unsure of their legal position, they should pass the complaint to their legal advisors as you are not liable for their mistake and breach of your consumer rights. Please show us what you intend to send them.
Title: Re: PCN EV Charging McDonald’s Fine
Post by: slapdash on September 09, 2024, 11:32:17 am
@mdar50743 Have you approached McDonalds, they may have the power to instruct MET to cancel. There was a recent occurrence where they have been receptive.

Title: Re: PCN EV Charging McDonald’s Fine
Post by: slapdash on September 09, 2024, 11:29:26 am
I agree it is an unfair term.

The issue becomes a practical one. Are you aware of:-

- Any hire company accept the argument and either refunding or not charging.
- A credit provider acception a section 75 claim.
- An FoS decision in favour.
- A successful claim for reimbursement from the hire company via court.

The practical problem being the hire company will just take it from the credit card if they don't transfer liability (usually on the fallacious basis of "we were doing you a favour to stop it escalating"). Then they have the money and one of the remedies above will be required.

An alternative strategy might be to cancel the card to attempt to prevent collection (noting that some banking groups attempt to give themselves the right to just debit any ingroup new card).

At least this way a victim can simply wait until a claim issued and defend it.

It's a most unsatisfactory state of affairs.
Title: Re: PCN EV Charging McDonald’s Fine
Post by: mdar50743 on September 09, 2024, 11:23:43 am
You would also be covered by the Consumer Rights Act 2015 (CRA) even if the hire agreement did allow Hertz to pay the PCN as it is an unfair term.

Have a read of section 62 of the Act (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/section/62). Also, Section 57(4) applies.

You should point out to Hertz that if they pay the PCN, thereby removing any right you have to appeal it, they are in breach of section 57(4)(c) of Chapter 4 of the CRA 2015 which states:

Quote
57 Liability that cannot be excluded or restricted

(4)That also means that a term of a contract to supply services is not binding on the consumer to the extent that it would —

(c) allow a trader to put a person at a disadvantage as a result of pursuing such a right or remedy

Thank you everyone for your replies.

I have received a reply from Hertz. But I can't upload, it keeps saying Uploader Full? If anyone knows how to fix please advise.

https://ibb.co/7jz63GX

As Hertz have already paid for the fines, can I ask what is my course of action now?

Title: Re: PCN EV Charging McDonald’s Fine
Post by: b789 on September 09, 2024, 11:03:53 am
You would also be covered by the Consumer Rights Act 2015 (CRA) even if the hire agreement did allow Hertz to pay the PCN as it is an unfair term.

Have a read of section 62 of the Act (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/section/62). Also, Section 57(4) applies.

You should point out to Hertz that if they pay the PCN, thereby removing any right you have to appeal it, they are in breach of section 57(4)(c) of Chapter 4 of the CRA 2015 which states:

Quote
57 Liability that cannot be excluded or restricted

(4)That also means that a term of a contract to supply services is not binding on the consumer to the extent that it would —

(c) allow a trader to put a person at a disadvantage as a result of pursuing such a right or remedy
Title: Re: PCN EV Charging McDonald’s Fine
Post by: slapdash on September 09, 2024, 06:25:24 am
Within your agreement with Hertz there will be a section on "fines and charges" or somesuch.

This will detail what they can charge you, in some cases what they will charge you. They are very often silent on private parking charges. Dependant upon your agreement an argument may possibly be made that they have no contractual right to pay the charge and bill it. (There is a possibility a judge may ultimately take a more purposive view).

Although there is a legal method of transferring the charges to you this does not preclude Hertz from paying them and then charging you (if the contract allows it).

Thus if Hertz do choose to pay them you have a contractual dispute with them as to whether they were entitled to.

At the moment it is unclear whether Hertz intend to pay them and charge you or whether they intend to transfer liability to you (a process they will often get wrong anyway).
Title: Re: PCN EV Charging McDonald’s Fine
Post by: b789 on September 09, 2024, 01:57:41 am
But they aren’t “fines”. Ask them to show you the word “fine” anywhere on the NtK. They are invoices from a private company and there is no liability for Hertz to pay any invoice for an alleged breach of contract by the driver.

If they pay the charge, there is absolutely no possibility of an appeal. Check the wording in your hire agreement. Please show us the wording. Invariably, the wording only refers to fines and penalties for offences. PCNs from unregulated private parking companies are only invoices and nothing to do with statutory law.

If Hertz pay the PCNs instead of transferring any and all liability for them from them to you, the it is money thrown away. Quote PoFA paragraph 13(2) to Herts and tell them that if they do not comply with the requirements of PoFA to transfer liability to you, the Hirer, you will not be liable for their mistake. You should note that if you withhold payment by charging back any deductions from your credit card, they will have to sue you and you would have an excellent chance of beating them.

PoFA 13(2) states:

Quote
2)The creditor may not exercise the right under paragraph 4 to recover from the keeper any unpaid parking charges specified in the notice to keeper if, within the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which that notice was given, the creditor is given—

(a) a statement signed by or on behalf of the vehicle-hire firm to the effect that at the material time the vehicle was hired to a named person under a hire agreement;

(b) a copy of the hire agreement; and

(c) a copy of a statement of liability signed by the hirer under that hire agreement.

So the law specifically states that the Keeper (Hertz) cannot be liable for the charge as long as they give MET a statement that the vehicle is hired to you and they include a copy of the hire agreement and a copy of the statement of liability that you signed when you hired the vehicle. As long as they do that within 28 days of receiving the NtK, there can not be any liability for Hertz to pay the charge and MET cannot peruse them for it.

Once Hertz has done that, MET must then comply with the requirements in PoFA paragraph 14(2) if they want to hold you, the Hirer liable. If they have not complied with all the requirements, then they cannot hold you liable as the Hirer. As long as you have not identified the driver, they have nowhere else to go and either abandon the alleged debt or else try their luck in small claims court where they have zero chance, as explained above.

So, if Hertz pay the PCNs, you have zero, nada, zilch chance of appealing them. MET will be laughing all the way to the bank. There is no chance to appeal a PCN once it has been paid. Have a read of the NtK, it even says so on it.

Regarding charging an EV on a rapid charger, nobody should ever try and charge above 80%-85%. The rate of charge is just too slow. A DC charger does not balance the cells and you should only use an AC charger to charge up to 100%, usually overnight at home or an a “fast” public charger. The Polestar can AC charge at up to 11kW.
Title: Re: PCN EV Charging McDonald’s Fine
Post by: mdar50743 on September 09, 2024, 12:19:16 am
Welcome. As an EV owner for almost 5 years, I have some understanding of the issues surrounding rapid charging, especially when using Instavolt. Not the cheapest and especially if it comes with an added invoice of £100 per visit, ans in this case, although I would question why the need to rapid charge for over an hour each time.

I note that what you have shown us is a copy of the Notice to Keeper (NtK) which is addressed to the Registered Keeper (RK), Hertz, and not you, the Hirer (I presume). I will also, for now, assume that the NtK you showed us was sent to you by Hertz. Please correct me if I’m wrong, but it is extremely important that we get these fact correct.

Have you been in any contact with the operator, MET Parking, and if so, have you revealed the identity of the Driver? MET will only know the identity of the Driver of you, the Hirer, has told them. Hopefully, you haven’t done so. Neither Hertz nor MET know the identity of the driver and, as you can read on the NtK, it the Driver who is liable for the alleged debt.

The Driver, the Keeper and the Hirer are all separate legal entities. Whilst the Keeper/Hirer may also be the Driver, that is only known by the Keeper/Hirer. In the case of a hired vehicle, the Hire company does not know who the Driver is. There is no legal requirement for the Hirer to identify the Driver to an unregulated private parking company.

You have already, mistakenly, called these “fines”. Only an “authority” such as a council or the police can issue “fines” or “penalties” and only if an “offence” has been committed. MET are a private company and definitely not an “authority” of any kind. What they have issued is a speculative invoice for an alleged breach of contract by the Driver. Can you show a single mention of the words “fine”, “penalty” or “offence” on any of the paperwork received?

MET are relying on the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA) (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/schedule/4/enacted) to be able to transfer liability for the charge (invoice) from the Driver, if they are unknown, to the Keeper or Hirer. That can only happen if all the requirements of PoFA have been fully complied with. Partial or even substantial compliance is not sufficient.

If the driver has been identified by the Hirer, then PoFA does not apply and the Driver (now known to MET) remains liable and a “golden ticket” opportunity has been wasted. Has the Driver been identified?

Normally, a PCN for a Hire/Lease vehicle is considered a “golden ticket” as almost every PPC fails to follow all the requirements of Paragraphs 13 and 14 of Schedule 4 of PoFA, and as long as they have not followed all those requirements and the Driver remains unknown, the Hirer cannot be liable for the PCN.

The most common reason that PPCs such as MET Parking fail to fully comply with all the requirements is because they fail to either issue a Notice to Hirer (NtH) once liability has been transferred by the Keeper or, more likely, they fail to include copies of the documents specified in Paragraphs 13(2) of PoFA.

So, we need to establish whether you have identified the Driver. If not, have MET sent you an NtH? If they have, did they include copies of the relevant documents as required in PoFA paragraph 13(2)?

The next thing we need to establish is what the signs at the location actually say. The signs are the contract that the Driver agreed to, whether they read them or not (contract by conduct). Can you get photos of the signs at the location? We need to see an overview and some close ups of the actual signs at the EV charging bays.

If the Driver has been identified, then the best chance of getting the PCNs cancelled is if the signs are incapable of creating a valid contract with the Driver. It is much more difficult than if the Driver has not been identified.

Finally, why was the Driver charging an EV for over an hour on a Rapid Charger? Are the Instavolt chargers at the location 50kW versions or more powerful ones? Charging above 80% on a Rapid charger is a waste of time as the charge rate begins to slow dramatically in order to protect the battery. As the Polestar has an ultra rapid charging capability of at least 150kW (205kW if it’s a Polestar 2), it would be advisable to seek out ultra rapid chargers, especially at locations that are not infested with PPCs, and spend less time charging.

I completely agree it's not the cheapest but when you're like me, someone who's never charged before, this is really the only way I found. There is another problem about this vehicle I rented - it does take a long time to charge from 25% - 100% in around 1:20 min at 120kw going down to around 9kw.

I note that what you have shown us is a copy of the Notice to Keeper (NtK) which is addressed to the Registered Keeper (RK), Hertz, and not you, the Hirer (I presume). I will also, for now, assume that the NtK you showed us was sent to you by Hertz. Please correct me if I’m wrong, but it is extremely important that we get these fact correct.

Just to quote from hertz email I received:

Thanks for your email, I have investigated the terms and conditions state that we will pay the fines when they are received. This is an automated process. Therefore, I can issue you with an appeal notice and you will need to appeal the ticket. If you win the appeal, we will then refund accordingly.
 
Please note the rental agreement you signed gives the process and you have agreed with these terms and conditions.
Please advise if you wish to go ahead and I will request the appeal notice?


I have replied: I am writing to inform you that I plan to appeal the fines associated with my rental. As such, I kindly request that any previous and future fines not be charged to my account until the appeal process is completed.






Title: Re: PCN EV Charging McDonald’s Fine
Post by: b789 on September 08, 2024, 12:26:31 pm
Interesting that the little yellow sign next to the charger says "No Parking At Any Time". If so, then charging cannot be considered "parking".

Given that the bay is specifically designated for charging only and has a "No Parking" sign, you have a strong basis to argue that your vehicle was not "parked" but was instead engaged in the permitted activity of charging, as indicated by the bay’s intended use. MET’s issuance of a PCN for "exceeding the stay authorised or without authorisation" overlooks the distinction between parking and charging.

As MET are going to reject ANY appeal, the initial appeal is only to get them to generate a POPLA code. It is at POPLA where you are likely to have the PCN cancelled.

Besides the PoFA argument that the Hirer cannot be liable, you can also point out why the driver cannot be liable. Here are some key points you can raise in the appeal:

Charging, not Parking: Emphasise that the vehicle was in the bay for the specific purpose of charging, not parking. The "No Parking" sign makes it clear that the bay is for charging only, and the vehicle was compliant with this requirement.

No Clear Stay Limits for Charging: If there is no clear signage outlining how long an EV can remain while charging, the terms would be ambiguous. If the car park imposes a general stay limit but does not address the unique nature of charging, this lack of clarity would make the charge unfair.

Reasonableness of Charging Time: Argue that the time spent charging was necessary for the vehicle to recharge adequately. If the car park allows charging but does not provide enough time for a full or reasonable charge, this could be considered an unreasonable restriction.

Lack of Contradiction in Signage: Since the bay is marked with "No Parking" but allows charging, the signage suggests that the activity you were engaged in (charging) is permissible, and the penalty for exceeding a stay intended for parking does not apply to charging.

As we still don't know whether the Hirer has received an NtH in their own name or at least a letter of authorisation from Hertz for them to deal with it, until that point is clarified, there is little point in providing any actual appeal to use at the various stages.
Title: Re: PCN EV Charging McDonald’s Fine
Post by: slapdash on September 08, 2024, 11:56:53 am
https://imgur.com/a/tD3WPJE

The above image is from the charging app I use.

Irrespective of other restrictions posted a reasonable person might conclude that the conditions on the sign next to the charger might be the relevant ones.

They are only 60kw, over an hour must be fairly common. Fairly trappy arrangement.

Btw Tesla Superchargers are often open to non Tesla EV. Download the app from the charging tab on Tesla website, also gives a write up.

Generally way cheaper, even more so off peak.
Title: Re: PCN EV Charging McDonald’s Fine
Post by: DWMB2 on September 08, 2024, 09:48:49 am
You might be beyond the deadline to amend your own post - if you are, send me a direct message with what you want the post to say, and I can edit it for you.
Title: Re: PCN EV Charging McDonald’s Fine
Post by: H C Andersen on September 08, 2024, 08:46:40 am
getting a 7 fines so far and probably more for charging my EV car
there for overstaying.


No, the NTK alleges:
'..exceeded the stay authorised or without authorisation'. Which begs the question: what are the conditions?

As you're local you can get current(!) photos of the signs.

Hire vehicle cases are the most complex because they involve not just 'parking' law but also contract law as between hirer and lease company and relationships. Then throw in that most lease companies don't know the procedures and PPCs who if they do know them don't follow them!

Do you still have the car on hire? Short-term or lease?
If your relationship is ongoing, then you probably do not want binary outcomes i.e. the hire company pay or you pay. But getting a third option is probably not in your hands.

As it stands you can do nothing as regards the NTK because it's not yours and unless Hertz have authorised you in writing to make reps on their behalf then you don't feature in the process.

I suggest your priorities are:
Amend your posts to remove any suggestion as to the identity of the driver;
Tell us and post whatever correspondence accompanied the NTK from Hertz;
Get and post photos of the signs.
Title: Re: PCN EV Charging McDonald’s Fine
Post by: b789 on September 08, 2024, 05:08:55 am
Welcome. As an EV owner for almost 5 years, I have some understanding of the issues surrounding rapid charging, especially when using Instavolt. Not the cheapest and especially if it comes with an added invoice of £100 per visit, ans in this case, although I would question why the need to rapid charge for over an hour each time.

I note that what you have shown us is a copy of the Notice to Keeper (NtK) which is addressed to the Registered Keeper (RK), Hertz, and not you, the Hirer (I presume). I will also, for now, assume that the NtK you showed us was sent to you by Hertz. Please correct me if I’m wrong, but it is extremely important that we get these fact correct.

Have you been in any contact with the operator, MET Parking, and if so, have you revealed the identity of the Driver? MET will only know the identity of the Driver of you, the Hirer, has told them. Hopefully, you haven’t done so. Neither Hertz nor MET know the identity of the driver and, as you can read on the NtK, it the Driver who is liable for the alleged debt.

The Driver, the Keeper and the Hirer are all separate legal entities. Whilst the Keeper/Hirer may also be the Driver, that is only known by the Keeper/Hirer. In the case of a hired vehicle, the Hire company does not know who the Driver is. There is no legal requirement for the Hirer to identify the Driver to an unregulated private parking company.

You have already, mistakenly, called these “fines”. Only an “authority” such as a council or the police can issue “fines” or “penalties” and only if an “offence” has been committed. MET are a private company and definitely not an “authority” of any kind. What they have issued is a speculative invoice for an alleged breach of contract by the Driver. Can you show a single mention of the words “fine”, “penalty” or “offence” on any of the paperwork received?

MET are relying on the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA) (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/schedule/4/enacted) to be able to transfer liability for the charge (invoice) from the Driver, if they are unknown, to the Keeper or Hirer. That can only happen if all the requirements of PoFA have been fully complied with. Partial or even substantial compliance is not sufficient.

If the driver has been identified by the Hirer, then PoFA does not apply and the Driver (now known to MET) remains liable and a “golden ticket” opportunity has been wasted. Has the Driver been identified?

Normally, a PCN for a Hire/Lease vehicle is considered a “golden ticket” as almost every PPC fails to follow all the requirements of Paragraphs 13 and 14 of Schedule 4 of PoFA, and as long as they have not followed all those requirements and the Driver remains unknown, the Hirer cannot be liable for the PCN.

The most common reason that PPCs such as MET Parking fail to fully comply with all the requirements is because they fail to either issue a Notice to Hirer (NtH) once liability has been transferred by the Keeper or, more likely, they fail to include copies of the documents specified in Paragraphs 13(2) of PoFA.

So, we need to establish whether you have identified the Driver. If not, have MET sent you an NtH? If they have, did they include copies of the relevant documents as required in PoFA paragraph 13(2)?

The next thing we need to establish is what the signs at the location actually say. The signs are the contract that the Driver agreed to, whether they read them or not (contract by conduct). Can you get photos of the signs at the location? We need to see an overview and some close ups of the actual signs at the EV charging bays.

If the Driver has been identified, then the best chance of getting the PCNs cancelled is if the signs are incapable of creating a valid contract with the Driver. It is much more difficult than if the Driver has not been identified.

Finally, why was the Driver charging an EV for over an hour on a Rapid Charger? Are the Instavolt chargers at the location 50kW versions or more powerful ones? Charging above 80% on a Rapid charger is a waste of time as the charge rate begins to slow dramatically in order to protect the battery. As the Polestar has an ultra rapid charging capability of at least 150kW (205kW if it’s a Polestar 2), it would be advisable to seek out ultra rapid chargers, especially at locations that are not infested with PPCs, and spend less time charging.
Title: PCN EV Charging McDonald’s Fine
Post by: mdar50743 on September 07, 2024, 10:25:04 pm
Hi everyone,

Hope if anyone can help, advise or have had any experience dealing with with MET Parking Services.

I hired a car and my local McDonald’s had a EV Charging facility. I've been going there for about
few weeks and all of a sudden been getting a 7 fines so far and probably more for charging my EV car
there for overstaying.

Could any please help and advise what can I do to appeal these fines as they are getting really unbearable.

Thank you.

https://ibb.co/RHHTcgS

(https://ibb.co/RHHTcgS)