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Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: PCNDude on August 02, 2023, 11:26:21 am

Title: Re: Red Route Ticket TFL. Appeal date set advice.
Post by: cp8759 on August 27, 2023, 05:15:53 pm

Outcome (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1Pa3c_Vk4mwWbR0S93ZUgq1wC48TEAZwP).

Title: Re: Red Route Ticket TFL. Appeal date set advice.
Post by: John U.K. on August 24, 2023, 01:23:54 pm

Congratulations  ;)

Case no 2230244402 for future reference

TfL did not have a good day at Tribunal yesterday:

RUC lost 57, won 32
ETA lost 19. won 2

Title: Re: Red Route Ticket TFL. Appeal date set advice.
Post by: PCNDude on August 24, 2023, 12:25:26 pm

Went to tribunal and they found in my favour.

Procedural impropriety.   The NTO was dated 16th but TFL history showed it was posted on the 17th.

Plus the road markings were unclear.

They agreed with me re the postage of the documents but this was not in the ruling they sent.

Tickets 17th August 2022

Resolved 23rd August 2023.

Over a year to get it cancelled but won through in the end.

Title: Re: Red Route Ticket TFL. Appeal date set advice.
Post by: cp8759 on August 02, 2023, 11:57:51 pm

Quote from: PCNDude on August 02, 2023, 11:11:01 pm

As a fall back I have the NTO was posted on the wrong date.  If I win this can they reissue the NTO correctly and will I then be back at stage 1.  I assume not as too much time has passed since the offence or is that wrong?

Have a read of this: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2022/71/regulation/20

The key point is:

(3) A notice to owner must, in addition to the matters required to be included in it under regulation 3(2) of the 2022 Appeals Regulations, state—

(a) the date of the notice, which must be the date on which the notice is posted,

Once you can prove a procedural impropriety (which is any failure by the authority to comply with the regulations), you've won and the council cannot re-issue anything.

Whatever you do, do not go for a decision on the papers, you really want to have a hearing.

Title: Re: Red Route Ticket TFL. Appeal date set advice.
Post by: PCNDude on August 02, 2023, 11:11:01 pm

I think I am ok.  This should be fairly easy I wrote an appeal and posted it on time and they did not respond.

I just wanted to check that this is ok. 

The 1978 Interpretations act section 7 applies to all legislation.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1978/30/contents

References to service by post.
Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression “serve” or the expression “give” or “send” or any other expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and, unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post.

The Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions(Representations and Appeals) (England) Regulations 2022

Part 3

Cover the service of documents

(2) An appeal document is to be regarded as having been sent to that party if it is—

(a)delivered to that party,
(b)left at that party’s proper address,
(c)sent by first class post to that party at that address, or
(d)transmitted to that party by fax or other means of electronic data transmission in accordance with sub-paragraph (3).

As the letter I wrote was delivered as it was in the pack they sent and they copied the envelope showing it had a first class stamp.  Two of those requirements are met.

The representation I sent on the 7th by law is considered to have arrive 2 days later on the 9th December. Whether it did or not. 

It needed to have arrived by the 16th.

Therefor it should not have been disregarded by TFL and considered within 56 days which has passed.


As a fall back I have the NTO was posted on the wrong date.  If I win this can they reissue the NTO correctly and will I then be back at stage 1.  I assume not as too much time has passed since the offence or is that wrong?

Title: Re: Red Route Ticket TFL. Appeal date set advice.
Post by: cp8759 on August 02, 2023, 09:39:04 pm

From what you say you have various arguable grounds, and there might be a few more.

Would you like one of us to represent you at the tribunal?

Title: Red Route Ticket TFL. Appeal date set advice.
Post by: PCNDude on August 02, 2023, 11:26:21 am

I Received this ticket almost a year ago. I was parked in a red route bay off the main road. I misread the time and received a parking ticket.
This is a TFL ticket.

I made an online appeal which was rejected by letter and said I could make a formal appeal. I wrote back to them with another more detailed appeal before the NTO was issued.

They they told me they would not consider this and I needed to wait for the NTO to be served on the 15th November. The NTO was issued on the 16th November.

This stated I could appeal online or in writing. I tried to appeal online and the link did not work. I spoke to them on the phone and they said you can only make 1 online appeal and that was my first appeal. I had to write.
on the 24th November I wrote to them asking to be able to make my appeal online. I took a video of my attempts to do this.
By the 7th December no reply to this letter so I wrote a full appeal and posted to them.

On the 28th December they issued a charge certificate. I spoke to them on the phone on the 4th Jan and they said no appeal had been received I need to write.

I wrote another letter including my original appeals.

All three letters arrived on the 12th, 12th and 13th Jan. They had all been posted 1st class.

They wrote back to me to say as my appeal had been received after 28 days they did not have to have to consider it. This effectively meant there was no conceivable way for my appeal to have arrived within 28 days. If I could provide a good reason they might consider it.

I wrote back to say the date of postage under UK law dictates the received date not when it was actually received and the delay was caused by the Christmas post and the industrial action at the post office. Which were beyond my control. I also included evidence of my suspected Transient Ischemic Attack (mini stroke) on the 31st October. As a good reason why I might be delayed in posting.

They did not accept this and I could either wait for them to go to the court and make an appeal to the court or pay £240. I chose to go to court.

I made a statement to the court which was withheld. On the basis I had made representation and this had not been heard.

They appealed which also went in my favor.

I now have an appointment with the London tribunal on the 23rd August.



I just noticed on the documents they submitted. The NTO is dated the 16th November but their records show it was actually posted on the 17th. This means the NTO was invalid as it must have the date of postage on it?

This also including all my letters and the envelopes showing postage by 1st class post. So they have the evidence in the form of my letters that they had been posted and received.

I was going to argue that they did not hear either of my representation. The first they refused to consider and the other although it was sent in time to have been received in the normal course of the post.  They deemed to be sent out of time.

The NTO included information on how to appeal online that was not valid.  They have details of an online appeal that I could not make.

Plus the parking bay was red it should be white.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/7/made


Diagrams Diagram 1028.4 and Diagram 1028.6

Part 5, 5
5. The marks forming the boundary of the bay and any legend must be coloured red when placed on a red route, but only where the bay is not available for parking or loading during part of, or all of, the times of operation of the red route

Docs
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1--RY3SufG7M2bArbO6iZx61DpbunVUSU?usp=sharing