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Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: RW on August 02, 2023, 01:20:38 am

Title: Re: TFL Yellow box PCN, Catford road/Rushey Green
Post by: Pastmybest on November 16, 2023, 05:20:10 pm
Appeal refused

2230464056


The hearing took place by telephone today. Mr Allen represented Mr Williams. Mr Williams did not attend.
Mr Allen raises a number of matters on behalf of Mr Williams.
Firstly, he argues that the contravention did not occur at the location stated on the Penalty Charge Notice. The Penalty Charge Notice stated that the grounds on which the Penalty Charge Notice was issued were for entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited. The Penalty Charge Notice states that vehicle LV21MUC was seen in Catford Road/Rushey Green.
Mr Allen states that the box junction is not at the junction of Catford Road and Rushey Green. He provides an aerial view photograph from google street view. The appellant states that the box junction is in Catford Road at the junction of an unnamed bus only street. His photograph Fig 2 in his skeleton argument shows Rushey Green and a bus only route.
During the hearing I looked at google street view. I am satisfied that this shows that the box junction is located between Rushey Green and Catford Road. I find that the Penalty Charge Notice does indicate where the contravention took place notwithstanding that there is no requirement for the location to be stated on a Penalty Charge Notice.
Secondly Mr Allen argues that the box junction does not comply with the requirements of the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 because the box is not at the junction of two or more roads.
The footage shows the box junction markings and it shows carriageway on the right. The carriageway is a bus gate for the use of buses and cycles and taxis. The appellant argues that the bus gate is not a road within in the definition of the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016
Schedule 9 Part 7 11 (6) of the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 defines a box junction as an area of carriageway where the markings have been placed and which is at the junction between two or more roads.
Section 142 of The Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 defines a road as ‘ in England and Wales, means any length of highway or of any other road to which the public has access…’
Mr Allen argues that because only certain vehicles are permitted to use the bus lane this means that it is not a road because the public does not have access to the road. There is a pedestrian crossing over the road. There is a footway on each side of the carriageway. The location has the appearance being a road. The fact that only certain types of vehicle are permitted to use the carriageway does not in my view mean that the bus lane is not a road. Members of the public can use the road not withstanding that only certain vehicles are permitted to use the carriageway. Buses and taxis carry members of the public.
I am satisfied that the bus lane is a road and so I find that the box junction markings are at the junction of two roads.
Mr Allen also argues that the box junction is not compliant because it extends beyond the junction of two or more roads. He refers to decisions of other Adjudicators including one of my own decisions. The decision he refers to do not relate to the box junction in Catford Road.
I am satisfied that the box junction is at the junction of two or more roads. There is nothing in the definition of a box junction that states that a box junction ceases to be a box junction if it extends beyond the precise point where the two or more roads meet. Mr Allen argues that only part of the box junction is enforceable. Figure 1 on his skeleton argument is marked to show a white line. Mr Allen argues that the whole of the box on the left of that line is not enforceable because it is not at the junction of two or more roads.
The google street view images show that the current box junction markings have been in place since at least May 2017. The box junction was differently marked in August 2016.
I find that the box junction complies with the requirements of the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016.
Thirdly, Mr Allen argues that Transport for London cannot enforce the Penalty Charge Notice because they did not consider Mr Williams’ representations. Mr Williams made representations on the basis that the box junction extended beyond the junction and that it was not at the junction of two or more roads.
The Notice of Rejection referred to the representation in the first paragraph. The writer referred to the CCTV footage which is the primary evidence of the appeal. The Notice of Rejection stated that Transport for London had considered the representation.
I am bound by the decision in the High Court decision of R (Halton Borough Council) v Road User Charging Adjudicators and Damian Curzon (interested party) 2023] EWHC 303 (Admin). The decision stated that a complete failure to consider representations would be a “procedural impropriety”, anything less would not. The ground of appeal of procedural impropriety does not apply to Penalty Charge Notices issued under the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003. The argument that the Penalty Charge Notice is not enforceable because Transport for London failed to consider the representations is pursued as a collateral challenge. I am not persuaded that Transport for London wholly failed to consider Mr Williams’ representations.
I find that the Penalty Charge Notice is enforceable.
The contravention occurs if a person causes a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles. The Enforcement Authority does not have to prove that the vehicle caused any obstruction to other road users.
I am satisfied that the CCTV footage shows that the contravention occurred. I refuse this appeal.
Authority Response


This is the HC case she followed it will make things harder if every adjudicator interprets it as she did

https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2023/303.html
Title: Re: TFL Yellow box PCN, Catford road/Rushey Green
Post by: Pastmybest on November 15, 2023, 10:29:37 am
Just had the hearing with Teresa Brennan First point was a no go but she has reserved her decision on another 3 points not overly confident She gave me a hard time but fair and would listen
Title: Re: TFL Yellow box PCN, Catford road/Rushey Green
Post by: RW on October 10, 2023, 02:25:54 am
Thank you so much i will have that all to you by tomorrow afternoon.

Thank you again.
Title: Re: TFL Yellow box PCN, Catford road/Rushey Green
Post by: Pastmybest on October 09, 2023, 01:11:47 pm
Only just seen this. Yes i will represent you you need to email me unredacted all pages of the notice of rejection including all pages of the appeal form also a letter signed by you authorising me to act on your behalf.

This needs to be done by Friday so don't delay I will PM you my enail
Title: Re: TFL Yellow box PCN, Catford road/Rushey Green
Post by: RW on October 06, 2023, 09:01:01 pm
Quote from: RW on October 02, 2023, 05:10:41 pm
Hi Pastmybest please see the attached other pages of the Notice of Rejection.

Thank you. (Attachment Link) (Attachment Link)

Would you be so kind as to represent me if you have the time?
Title: Re: TFL Yellow box PCN, Catford road/Rushey Green
Post by: RW on October 02, 2023, 05:10:41 pm
Hi Pastmybest please see the attached other pages of the Notice of Rejection.

Thank you.[attach=1][attach=1]

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: TFL Yellow box PCN, Catford road/Rushey Green
Post by: cp8759 on October 02, 2023, 05:05:37 pm
Quote from: Pastmybest on October 02, 2023, 12:45:05 pm
CP whats the procedure re TfL appeals
TFL doesn't issue verification codes so you can't use the tribunal portal, but the appellant can fill in the paper appeal form, scan it or photograph it and it can then be emailed to queries@londontribunals.org.uk

Sending the form in the post is generally a bad idea as you just risk it being lost in the post.

If I'm representing someone I get them to send me the form and I email it myself, as there's no space on the form for my own contact details that I want on the tribunal record.
Title: Re: TFL Yellow box PCN, Catford road/Rushey Green
Post by: Pastmybest on October 02, 2023, 12:45:05 pm
Well there is the original point re extent of the box and also a failure to consider all the did was tell you what you said but did not address the matter at all

CP whats the procedure re TfL appeals

OP there are more pages we need them all
Title: Re: TFL Yellow box PCN, Catford road/Rushey Green
Post by: cp8759 on October 02, 2023, 12:28:56 pm
Well as the discount is not on offer there's no point in paying now.

@Pastmybest what are your views on this one?
Title: Re: TFL Yellow box PCN, Catford road/Rushey Green
Post by: RW on October 02, 2023, 12:09:57 pm
The 2nd part of the letter re. Notice of Rejection

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: TFL Yellow box PCN, Catford road/Rushey Green
Post by: RW on October 02, 2023, 12:07:34 pm
TFL sent the following Notice of Rejection. Could anyone please advise me on my next steps? Thank you in advance.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: TFL Yellow box PCN, Catford road/Rushey Green
Post by: cp8759 on August 27, 2023, 02:53:26 pm
The penalty is at the full amount so there's no point in paying now, you might as well send something:

Dear Transport for London,

The alleged contravention did not occur. This is because the box junction markings are extended beyond the junction, which is not authorised by the traffic signs regulations, box junction markings can only be placed at the junction of two or more roads. As my vehicle stopped on a part of the box junction markings that is beyond the junction itself, the alleged contravention cannot have occurred. The PCN must therefore be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,

Send it online and don't forget to get a screenshot of the confirmation screen.
Title: Re: TFL Yellow box PCN, Catford road/Rushey Green
Post by: Pastmybest on August 23, 2023, 06:04:59 pm
You have an argument that the box extends beyond the junction but the layout would not guarantee a win
Title: Re: TFL Yellow box PCN, Catford road/Rushey Green
Post by: RW on August 23, 2023, 05:24:42 pm
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1O8OrRS9HaYlvX4NqkQURTSxNwu7kjszk/view?usp=drive_link
Title: Re: TFL Yellow box PCN, Catford road/Rushey Green
Post by: RW on August 03, 2023, 04:20:03 am
Thank you, i'm calling TFL tomorrow morning. And will send the remaining pages of the PC tomorrow too.
Title: Re: TFL Yellow box PCN, Catford road/Rushey Green
Post by: cp8759 on August 02, 2023, 08:06:48 pm
It's not a council, it's Transport for London. As discussed elsewhere, you need to phone TFL and ask for the video.

Also please post the remaining pages of the PCN, and give us a link to the exact spot on google street view.
Title: TFL Yellow box PCN, Catford road/Rushey Green
Post by: RW on August 02, 2023, 01:20:38 am
Hi could someone or Ivan please let me know if im banged to rights on this one please? I have 2 days left on a reduced fine too if i have to pay!

The council has only provided still images and no video footage. From what i recall i was turning right and somehow got caught in the box. I am the second white car most in the box. Thank you in advance.

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