Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Sam6688 on September 04, 2024, 10:07:54 pm
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The images show that the vehicle did enter this box junction marking when there appeared to be sufficient space beyond it to exit. The vehicle did then stop in the box as vehicles appeared to be trying to turn Notice to Owner it from both the left and the right side. The Appellant’s vehicle does not appear to stop within the box due to the presence of a stationary vehicle ahead.
The Adjudicator is only able to decide an appeal by making findings of fact on the basis of the evidence actually produced by the parties and applying relevant law.
Considering carefully all the evidence before me I cannot find as a fact that, on this particular occasion, a contravention did occur.
Accordingly, this appeal must be allowed.
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:)
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@stamfordman
@MrChips
@Hippocrates
At last today it comes to end and we have won the appeal and PCN is cancelled.
I would say thank you all of you for your support and guidance throughout this process. I will share the decision letter by tomorrow when they will send it to me so you guys can help more people. Once again thank you guys.
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Excellent.
Out of interest (as it crops up frequently for Redbridge cases), was the vague location argument struck down or wasn't considered due to the space being available.
Guess we'll find out tomorrow.
He wasn't with me for the usual reasons of those who say the exact location is not necessary. I gave him the two cases. And I stressed the lack of addressing the issue in the NOR. Well at least in the other case.
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Excellent.
Out of interest (as it crops up frequently for Redbridge cases), was the vague location argument struck down or wasn't considered due to the space being available.
Guess we'll find out tomorrow.
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Won on the space being available - just! Phew! Anyway, we'll see what he says tomorrow. They demanded £130 for this one! £110 for the other one. Same location.
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Edited.
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Just rescheduled it.
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Seems to me you were probably being courteous and wanting to let someone in or out. Still not a contravention.
@stamfordman
That's what actually happend on junction. As soon as I saw the car approaching either sides i stopped to give way but then I realise its yellow box so I moved. I might add that argument and skip the not remembering part. Thanks again for your valuable advise
Will discuss with @Hippocrates before hearing.
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Seems to me you were probably being courteous and wanting to let someone in or out. Still not a contravention.
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@stamfordman
@MrChips
Thank you all for your advise and suggestions.
I think I would stick to the point that I don't recall or exactly remember why I stopped but will say that by watching video it clearly shows that my exit was not blocked by stationary vehicle and traffic was moving so stopping at yellow box junction was not an offence. So I would kindly request to allow my appeal and cancel the pcn. I am sure that mr
@Hippocrates will give a strong argument regarding council failure and mistakes in pcn and notice of rejection letter.
I'm bit nervous lol so not sure how it will go but again need to give all the way to win. Thanks again all
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This is the case I was thinking of.
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2160252038
The appellant brought with him a freehand sketch in plan to explain and support his argument that the driver could have cleared the box without stopping for the 12 or so seconds recorded. I have retained this and accepted the measurements as shown.
The appellant's daughter Rebecca is shown driving on the clip. I understood she had passed her test two years ago. I have accepted that she could have cleared the box without stopping within it. In the event the rear wheels straddled the far perimeter.
She may through inexperience have misjudged the length of her father's car but I do not incline to allow an appeal of this type on that account. An obvious feature of the evidence was that when she stopped, that she did so for the purpose of adjusting controls on her music. I was inclined to be very critical of her taking her eyes off the road as she did and when she chose to do that. I did however conclude there was insufficient evidence to support this particular penalty charge as I could not attribute the reason for stopping as being essentially the presence of stationary vehicles, as opposed to preoccupation with what was playing music. I have recorded the appeal as allowed.
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Plus the limitation to one ground as per heir website.
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https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/sites/default/files/keycases/SKMBT_C454e14031218240.pdf
This is a key case on the tribunal's own website concerning box junctions. It includes the following extract which supports your case:
"In my view a Council has to prove:-
1) that the driver caused the vehicle to enter (i.e. that it was not pushed by another vehicle)
2) that it then stopped within the junction
3) that the reason it stopped was the presence of vehicles, and that those vehicles were stationary vehicles
If the vehicle continues to move, or it stops due to the presence of moving vehicles, or it stops for some other reason, such as, to allow the driver to make a phone call or admire the view, no contravention occurs."
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As per Mr Chips.
I don't think you need to say why - just say you're not sure and can't recall but stress that the contravention did not occur as exit was not prevented by stationary vehicles.
I would also draw attention to what Redbridge say - that you must use the space to exit. This isn't what the law says. The stationary vehicle part must be part of the contravention and it wasn't. They are trying to say a box is a no stopping zone without qualification.
There's a funny case where I think someone's daughter stopped in a box to change her music cassette but there was no contravention and the appeal was rightly allowed. I'll see if I can find it.
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Hi OP.
So, I've only ever been to the tribunal once (but it was for a box junction and I won although the adjudicator was in my opinion unnecessarily brusque and confrontational - hopefully you will get a less agitated one!) so others are perhaps better qualified to answer this.
For me, and bearing in mind we think you are starting from a winning position, the key things are not to:
- say anything which undermines your credibility, so don't exaggerate, try to mislead, or say anything which is clearly contradicted by the video footage
- say anything that inadvertently suggests you are admitting the offence which (to remind you) is to enter the box such that you have to stop within the box due to stationary vehicles.
Re the latter, the key points are:
- it is not (necessarily) an offence to stop in the box (whatever Redbridge may think)
- if you stop for any reason other than because stationary vehicles force you to then that's not punishable
- consequently, because there is a vehicle sized gap in front of you when you enter the box and also when you stop, you shouldn't be penalised.
You shouldn't focus on (or really bring up) the fact you stopped for 'only' 7 seconds as this isn't relevant (any stop even for less than a second is an offence the way the law is written) so this could distract the adjudicator into thinking that your argument is that you should be let off for only committing an offence for a short time, when your argument is that you didn't commit a contravention in the first place.
You may be asked why you entered the box junction in the first place and then stopped in it, so be prepared for that. If there is a reason, then that might help (e.g. because you saw traffic ahead coming to a standstill so wanted to let in the vehicle approaching from the left but then realised you were blocking the exit for the car wanting to turn in from the right) but better just to say you can't remember than to make something up which could lead the adjudicator to think you are being economical with the truth. Ultimately it doesn't really matter why you did if you didn't commit an offence in doing so.
Finally, if you think the adjudicator isn't being sympathetic to this line of defence, don't forget the other item you included in your original challenge around the location being far too vague. This is especially true given you live so far away and so wouldn't be familiar with the locality from the video or photos.
Ultimately, Hippocrates is very experienced so you are in very good hands :)
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This is awful for Redbridge - they seem to have someone who doesn't understand the law and thinks you can pick the stopping part in isolation from the owing to stationary vehicles part.
@stamfordman
@MrChips
Good Afternoon everyone just seeking advice as Hippocrates asked me to attend through the phone as he said I just need to tell the court what happened on the day.
Just getting curious as I don't want to say anything which can go against my case.
Any suggestion what shall I say on the day like why I stopped at yellow box junction.
Good afternoon guys hope everyone is doing good.
I was only 7 or 8 seconds in junction as soon as I notice there are cars i moved out.
Any suggesstion or help will be much appreciated.
Any advice will be appreciated thanks.
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Where is a copy of the OP's reps in the council's evidence?
All I can see is a summary of those reps.
Hi @Hippocrates is representing me at tribunal against Redbridge he is in process of that.
Thanks @John U.K.
For uploading pictures.
@stamfordman fingers crossed as we have date in tribunal in 10 days so hopefully will get it cancelled and Adjudicator allow the appeal.
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Where is a copy of the OP's reps in the council's evidence?
All I can see is a summary of those reps.
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Just working on this. Also, a serious failure to consider the locus issue, save for their comments in their summary.
Dear Sirs
I make these further submissions in support of having M**** case allowed.
1. The appellant has made sensible and coherent submissions; but, the council has failed in its NOR to consider some of them, even though they have mentioned these in its case summary. Clearly, the initial failure influenced the appellant's decision to file his appeal.
2. The NOR fails to include the form and manner since it does not mention the power of the adjudicator to extend time in which to appeal.
In light of the above, I ask that the appeal be allowed please.
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This is awful for Redbridge - they seem to have someone who doesn't understand the law and thinks you can pick the stopping part in isolation from the owing to stationary vehicles part.
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For convenience:
(https://i.ibb.co/b2HcmRT/20241017-195444.jpg) (https://ibb.co/61vjwJz)
(https://i.ibb.co/BwpjrmJ/20241017-195451.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rvjMcgh)
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No one is going to click on all those links as they have no legend.
Post the council's summary - you can select BBcode links to display the pages here.
Hi Sorry hope you can see it now 2 pages of council summary
Thanks
@Stamfordman
https://ibb.co/rvjMcgh
https://ibb.co/61vjwJz
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No one is going to click on all those links as they have no legend.
Post the council's summary - you can select BBcode links to display the pages here.
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As we know we have appealed and waiting for tribunal date this month. I have received the pack today with all these documents. Can someone have a look and advise what it means. Please find the links below for documents received today from Redbridge council.
@MrChips
@Stamfordman
@cp8759
@Hippocrates
Thanks in Advance.
https://ibb.co/mF3j1Y1
https://ibb.co/v3nkfPw
https://ibb.co/hKSjBj8
https://ibb.co/61vjwJz
https://ibb.co/7Jy0VhZ
https://ibb.co/VqLcqzK
https://ibb.co/XJf38Fm
https://ibb.co/LJpHnN7
https://ibb.co/MPR45VR
https://ibb.co/CzpMryK
https://ibb.co/NNhs1Mv
https://ibb.co/RSdGKgP
https://ibb.co/ZJxBZr1
https://ibb.co/cYBtWJZ
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Doubt they'll contest this when they look at the video properly.
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Got it thanks. Game on. I will file the appeal for you.
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I have replied via PM.
@Hippocrates
I have replied your DM please have a look and let me know if its OK to contact you and we can discuss it further. Thanks
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I have replied via PM.
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I always attend in person. You can attend by phone. They have failed to consider and misconstrued the law. I believe evreyone on here agrees to take it to the Tribunal.
That's sounds reassuring that I stand a chance in tribunal. I have sent you DM @Hippocrates so if you can have a look please that will be appreciated. Thanks
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I always attend in person. You can attend by phone. They have failed to consider and misconstrued the law. I believe evreyone on here agrees to take it to the Tribunal.
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I meant this: https://imgur.com/Fy1WEBc
If you would like me to represent you please drop me a PM. They may well DNC of course as they are legislatively-challenged, if that is a phrase!
Our usual advice: personal hearing, I rely upon my formal representations and will file full submissions upon receipt of the council's evidence pack. Not a Thursday, preferably Mon to Wed.
Thanks for your time and suggestions
Here is the pictures of my representation sent to council
https://ibb.co/9WSWJFC
https://ibb.co/27zLjsX
https://ibb.co/QHYX2z0
So if you can guide me with next steps and what are the chances at tribunal by independent Adjudicator like if we can win at tribunal stage. Also I live near Blackburn so it's not possible to attend physically at tribunal to defend. If you an advice further regarding best option to consider will be much appreciated. Thanks
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They've ignored the challenge and the law - that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.
No brainer to appeal this to the tribunal.
(https://i.imgur.com/VzqVbZo.jpeg)
So according to their rejection statement you think we can win in tribunal?
Also I might need help with making representation in tribunal as I have never done it before and I live actually up north so can't physically come on hearing.whats the best advice you would give. Thanks
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I meant this: https://imgur.com/Fy1WEBc
If you would like me to represent you please drop me a PM. They may well DNC of course as they are legislatively-challenged, if that is a phrase!
Our usual advice: personal hearing, I rely upon my formal representations and will file full submissions upon receipt of the council's evidence pack. Not a Thursday, preferably Mon to Wed.
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They've ignored the challenge and the law - that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.
No brainer to appeal this to the tribunal.
(https://i.imgur.com/VzqVbZo.jpeg)
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Clearly there was no contravention.
OP: did you screenshot the challenge page as there is a wording issue with it?
I did and pictures was attached at original post please find the links with letters regarding PCN and also the rejection letter for my representation thanks
https://ibb.co/chk8k6x
https://ibb.co/S3hSJyW
https://ibb.co/vHcDqZ8
https://ibb.co/NTCFzcz
https://ibb.co/RQLnxkY
https://ibb.co/sRdjtd3
https://ibb.co/cXm5jB0
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No access.
Put the images of the rejection on say Imgur or IBB.co and post the BBCode share links.
Hi Sorry I don't what is the issue why you guys can't see the images.
Here is links for IBB images
https://ibb.co/chk8k6x
https://ibb.co/S3hSJyW
https://ibb.co/vHcDqZ8
https://ibb.co/NTCFzcz
https://ibb.co/RQLnxkY
https://ibb.co/sRdjtd3
https://ibb.co/cXm5jB0
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Clearly there was no contravention.
OP: did you screenshot the challenge page as there is a wording issue with it?
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No access.
Put the images of the rejection on say Imgur or IBB.co and post the BBCode share links.
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OK - here's a redraft on that basis. I disagree that
Hi guys just an update I have received the letter from Rddbridge Council as they rejected my representation please see the links for letter and and notice of appeal aswell. Can you please have a look and let me know what are the chances now. Thanks in Advance
@MrChips
@Stamfordman
https://ibb.co/chk8k6x
https://ibb.co/S3hSJyW
https://ibb.co/vHcDqZ8
https://ibb.co/NTCFzcz
https://ibb.co/RQLnxkY
https://ibb.co/sRdjtd3
https://ibb.co/cXm5jB0
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Re PCN XXXXXXXX
I For these reasons, it follows that the notice must be cancelled.
Yours faithfully,
Thanks to Mr Chips and Mr Stamford man for your valuable advice. I has submitted the representation as have been suggested by @MrChips. So will wait and update here once redbridge council replay.
Thank you.
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I think that's better but maybe could add something about the stop - 'From the video I think I may have stopped to give way to other drivers but this does not constitute a contravention.'
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OK - here's a redraft on that basis. I disagree that it's 'clear' there was sufficient space, by my reckoning there's only about 30cm in it, but agree it's clear that the footage doesn't adequately prove the council's case (i.e. show a forced stop on balance of probabilities).
Dear London Borough of Redbridge,
Re PCN XXXXXXXX
I challenge liability for this PCN on the grounds that the contravention did not occur.
Having had the opportunity to view the video footage I can see it shows that no contravention has taken place. Under the relevant regulations a contravention only takes place if a person causes a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has [my emphasis] to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles. The footage shows a large space beyond the box junction which would be sufficient to accommodate my vehicle. As such my vehicle was not forced to stop where it did due to stationary vehicles and it follows that no contravention took place.
I would further add that that the penalty charge notice ('PCN') does not adequately particularise the alleged wrongdoing. The location of the alleged contravention is given as "Ilford Lane", but the name of the road junction is not given. I have looked online and I can see that Ilford Lane is over a mile long and has some 35 junctions, but I cannot find any box junction markings so it seems the box markings have been painted since the Google Street View car last drove down this road. Living many hundreds of miles away, near Blackburn, I have no reasonable opportunity to return to the location to seek out the junction.
As the notice does not allow me to understand where it is that the contravention is alleged to have taken place, the notice does not adequately specify the grounds on which you believe the penalty is payable, I refer you to the decision of adjudicator Carl Teper in Saijal Patel v London Borough of Brent (2160240742, 8 August 2016) and adjudicator Andrew Harman in Sandra Grauzyte v London Borough of Redbridge (2230201115, 31 May 2023).
For these reasons, it follows that the notice must be cancelled.
Yours faithfully,
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Well I'd start with a simple challenge that the contravention didn't occur. Surely that's best.
Secondary would be vague location.
I wouldn't get into measuring cars - it's obvious that the driver stopped when the exit was way clear.
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Proposed draft representations for Redbridge. You've still got another week before the discount expires so no need to rush. Give others a chance to chip in. Credit to cp8759 for the wording on vague location, nicked from another Ilford Lane case.
Dear London Borough of Redbridge,
I challenge liability on the ground that the penalty charge notice ('PCN') does not adequately particularise the alleged wrongdoing. The location of the alleged contravention is given as "Ilford Lane", the name of the road junction is not given. I have looked online and I can see that Ilford Lane is over a mile long and has some 35 junctions, but I cannot find any box junction markings so it seems the box markings have been painted since the Google Street View car last drove down this road.
As the notice does not allow me to understand where it is that the contravention is alleged to have taken place, the notice does not adequately specify the grounds on which you believe the penalty is payable, I refer you to the decision of adjudicator Carl Teper in Saijal Patel v London Borough of Brent (2160240742, 8 August 2016) and adjudicator Andrew Harman in Sandra Grauzyte v London Borough of Redbridge (2230201115, 31 May 2023).
Notwithstanding the issue with the vagueness of the location in the PCN, the video footage shows that no contravention has taken place in any case. Under the relevant regulations a contravention only takes place if a person causes a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles. The footage shows a large space beyond the box junction which would be sufficient to accommodate my vehicle. As such my vehicle was not forced to stop where it did by stationary vehicles and it follows that no contravention took place.
It follows that the notice must be cancelled.
I'd further point out that if the PCN did include sufficient information to identify the actual junction involved I would be able to undertake a precise distance analysis of the space involved as compared with the length of my car to further back up the fact no contravention took place. Alas this is not feasible given the dozens of potential junctions in scope along Ilford Lane.
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Hi - sorry for delay in responding.
I'm happy to help draft representations for you to send - could you post a copy of your PCN in full (just redact your name and address). In particular, what is the date of the PCN? That will inform the deadlines we are working to.
Plan to include:
- room to exit the box
- vague location
Due to the vague location I'm not 100% sure which junction on Ilford Lane is involved but seems to be the one with Bedford Road (as I think I can see K1 Tyres in the background - but the box markings must be new as they don't feature in googlemaps yet). Based on measuring approx distance using road markings you had about 5 metres of clearance to the car in front. That's enough to accommodate most cars. What is your make/model and do you know it's official length?
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Hi yes the video does complete on council site same time as my recorder.
Apologise for not uploading full pic.
Here is the link now
https://linksharing.samsungcloud.com/t7we73S8We7z
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For completeness - does the video end where your recorder does. You haven't posted all the front of the PCN - you only need to obscure your name and address.
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I found this on tfl site
https://1drv.ms/i/c/4fdadd7ae67b3626/ET2ITJc2xHdOiShnmgGWpCUBBlYK813lrTYL93TcFQPOWg
which states we can enter to yellow box junction if exit is clear which I have done but I noticed suddenly the car approaching and signals to turn right the i stopped to give the way but then I moved forward to stop causing traffic. Looks like I have chance to appeal with the help of experts and get it cancelled.
Thanks in advance
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+1
First step will be to submit representations to the council based on that point (and any other defence we can come up with).
99% probability Redbridge will reject these and you will then need to go to the final stage of appealing to tribunal where you would get an unbiased judgement where I think you would win.
Thanks MrChips so I need to select option at the back of pcn that there was no contravention. And in details I need to put reason for it that there was no stationary vehicle infront if me and traffic was moving so I stopped to see the space and when the vehicle infornt of me moved I moved forward. If you can guide me to add anything to the details that will be much appreciated. I'm quite nervous lol but any suggesstion how its done or to use correct wording will be much appreciated.
Lastly if we made representation/appeal to council and if they reject it then it will go to tribunal and if tribunal reject what happens will I be liable for any fees or will I loose the 14 days 50% discount period?
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+1
Thanks for your replay Mr stamfordman.
So If I'm not wrong and if I guessed it right that you are saying this is not a contravention. So I have c good chance to appeal and get it cancelled. Please guide me through if possible. Thank you.
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Just wondering if, when the OP drove on across the YBJ, he cleared the box, because the video stops before the box is cleared.
If the box was cleared after moving forward, there is obviously no contravention as the law is that the vehicle has to stop in the box due to the presence of stationary vehicles.
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+1
First step will be to submit representations to the council based on that point (and any other defence we can come up with).
99% probability Redbridge will reject these and you will then need to go to the final stage of appealing to tribunal where you would get an unbiased judgement where I think you would win.
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Add Ilford Lane Redbridge to the title of your thread.
This isn't a contravention because your exit was not blocked by a stationary vehicle.
(https://i.imgur.com/NujoO7c.gif)
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Good evening guys hope everyone is doing good.
I know it's my fault staying in yellow box but any possibility I can contest or make representation as I was only 7 or 8 seconds in junction as soon as I notice there are cars i moved out.
Also traffic was moving so I moved forward, stopped for around 8 seconds to see if I have a space in front when I realised it is space and other cars approaching to turn right through yellow box I moved forward.
Please find the link at the end of this post.
Do I stand any chance in appeal.
If yes then what it will be please.
Any suggesstion or help will be much appreciated.
https://1drv.ms/v/c/4fdadd7ae67b3626/ERPS0ivYXQ9Fn2CE-DCQai4BZ61hUrgSr-FuD0-5Rd4Z9Q
https://1drv.ms/i/c/4fdadd7ae67b3626/Ecxe36GPxVxAme_hSnApZu0B4-IwMlnwbQYJ0pCtbpy7Zw
https://1drv.ms/i/c/4fdadd7ae67b3626/EZUxvzbMrUdLi2B85oPwdgwBFYLeeJjPMEXF-jpcDuNtpg