Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Dukewood on September 03, 2024, 04:56:06 pm
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They are administratively challenged at present. In one of the ones won the other day they were at sea in this regard. Keep checking the website.
Havering made a rod for their own back when they decided not to re-offer the discount when rejecting informal reps.
They decided that ignoring the recommendation in the Statutory Guidance to re-offer the discount, and stating that they would not follow the guidance, could be construed as "having regard to", their duty under the TMA 2004.
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Representation Reason
A - The alleged Contravention did not occur
B I was not the owner of the vehicle at the time of contravention
- I had sold the vehicle before that date
- I had bought the vehicle after that date
- I have never owned that vehicle
C - The vehicle was taken without my consent
D - We are a hire firm and have supplied details
E - The Penalty Charge exceeds the relevant amount
F - There has been a procedural impropriety by the Enforcement Authority
G - The traffic order contravened is invalid
H - The Notice should not have been served because the Penalty Charge had already been paid
I - Other
As usual. Please screenshot this.
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ok thanks - I'll keep an eye out and ofcourse update should I get any communication from them.
Thanks again
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They are administratively challenged at present. In one of the ones won the other day they were at sea in this regard. Keep checking the website.
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Thanks I am inclined to agree.
My only slight anxiety is if they suddenly claim they sent something etc but given I have that last email hopefully I should be ok. Odd if they are following up others that they didn't take it forward though. Seems like even though they are attending you are still thankfully able to win the case
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@Dukewood Well, I would let sleeping dogs lie as they are now beyond "unconscionable delay" territory. BTW they seem to attend all hearings these days for many contraventions. I wonder why. :D
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Thanks - the only thing I seem to be able to check ( unless I am looking in the wrong place perhaps ) is the video evidence link. That still simply has the status as "Pay" wtih the £130
And the last communication I had from them was this email in ealry November 24:
Thank you for your correspondence, your reference number is: W34*****
Please keep this for your records, we aim to respond to your correspondence by post or email, within 56 days. In the meantime, your case is on hold.
London Borough of Havering
01708 432787
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Can you check the status on their website?
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Hi congrats on those wins.
No I haven't heard a thing from them. I was kind of hoping they may have realised they will lose these and dropped it but sounds like that isn't the case. I do slightly worry they may say they have contacted me and I haven't responded but that is not the case. Would I hear from Havering now or direcly from the tribunal please ? Would you let sleeping dogs lie or chase up and if so who with please ?
Thank you
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@Dukewood Any update as I won two yesterday?
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ok thank you - good to know. Well done on another won case. Have a great weekend
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I won one recently. We just follow the process.
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thank you - I thought as much thanks again
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So we wait.
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Thank all - all I can seem to get into is the evidence of / representation etc section.
However you may recall I made representation back in November and got confirmation of receipt from them by email :
Thank you for your correspondence, your reference number is: Wxxxx
Please keep this for your records, we aim to respond to your correspondence by post or email, within 56 days. In the meantime, your case is on hold.
London Borough of Havering
01708 432787
Do you still need me to screen shot what I am seeing today thanks
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Please screenshot the website page re grounds.
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Thank you - I checked what I could and just says outstanding with option to pay - that is on the video video evidence page.
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Are you able to check online the status/history of the PCN?
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Belated Happy New Year
I haven't heard anything more from the local authority. It is that normal in your experience please thanks
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Thank you. That has been submitted and email confirmation received.
I will update when I hear anything back from them.
Meanwhile have a lovely weekend Thanks
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Fine. Please report back and I am happy to take care of this one for you.
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ok thank you - just to double check then
online
and put all the text at the link you posted into PDF and attach and then in added info simply refer them to the PDF
Sorry - just want to make sure I get 100% correct especially with my dyslexia - thanks again
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As before: contravention did not occur and put my latest text in to a pdf. Please do not mention the website crapulence at present.
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Thank you.
Yes used the text from that link as my informal appeal
I am now tyring to use online https://havering.gov.uk/pcn
However when I go there that seems to be informal appeal again. It even still talks about paying the discount etc :)
But the options / grounds don't seem to line up with the paper form posted. You may have noted this already but I have also just notcied the Making Representation paragraph says ( see Making Represnetation ..... overlead). Overlead on all the 3 notice sheets is blank :)
So just looking for guidance now on do I do this online or not please and if so I have these options only ( with an added info box below:
A - The alleged Contravention did not occur
B I was not the owner of the vehicle at the time of contravention
- I had sold the vehicle before that date
- I had bought the vehicle after that date
- I have never owned that vehicle
C - The vehicle was taken without my consent
D - We are a hire firm and have supplied details
E - The Penalty Charge exceeds the relevant amount
F - There has been a procedural impropriety by the Enforcement Authority
G - The traffic order contravened is invalid
H - The Notice should not have been served because the Penalty Charge had already been pai
I - Other
---- or do I use the paper form and if so
Do I simply write your copy about using informal appeal as formal and leave the tick box options untick and write that in the details section or do I need to tick one of the options ( top of page 3 ) and if so which one. I assume would be the one but clearly want to check in order not to comprimise our position .. There was no breach ..... did not occur
And do I need re state the original appeal as belt and braces or simply put the line you posted - I think the late but again double checking thanks
Thank you again
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I require you to consider my initial challenge as my formal representations against the Enforcement Notice which also wrongly conflates service with delivery.
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/pcn-driving-in-a-bus-lane-within-restricted-period/msg33334/#msg33334
I assume you used the link above. We will hit them with their website issues later if necessary.
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Thank you.
That is all sides of the notice - I think unless I missed something. No double sides to notice
Managed to get the redacted image up now
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Please post all sides of the EN with only yr name & address redacted.
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Good evening
I have had the enforcement notice today.
Please let me know how I should respond in represenation - thank you
<a href="https://imgur.com/HWKy3tu"><img src="https://i.imgur.com/HWKy3tu.jpg" title="source: imgur.com" /></a>
<a href="https://imgur.com/opcokbN"><img src="https://i.imgur.com/opcokbN.jpg?1" title="source: imgur.com" /></a>
<a href="https://imgur.com/RycUOEi"><img src="https://i.imgur.com/RycUOEi.jpg?1" title="source: imgur.com" /></a>
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Thank you - will do.
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Usual BS under the wrong Act. Wait for the EN.
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The inevitable reply rejecting my appeal has arrived.
<a href="https://imgur.com/qE6VOkN"><img src="https://i.imgur.com/qE6VOkN.jpg" title="source: imgur.com" /></a>
<a href="https://imgur.com/JH0BecG"><img src="https://i.imgur.com/JH0BecG.jpg" title="source: imgur.com" /></a>
I presume I just sit tight now until the formal notice etc.
Thank you
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Tis always useful. It all adds to the paper trail when it is time for the Fifth Set.
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will do - I was in 2 minds whether that post would be useful - but glad I posted it now. I will post again if / when I hear anything else from them. Thanks again
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Please keep me posted. I am doing two others with them at the moment and clearly their staff are having issues accessing the online challenges.
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Just to advise I received this today:
Good Afternoon,
Thank you for contacting us.
Please be advised that we received your representation dated 06th September 2024 and we will write to you in due course.
Kind Regards
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Thanks I have got PDFS of the pics, downloaded the video and have PDF showing the A - I grounds etc and well as one with general appeal info. Anything else I need to make sure I have please let me know and once again thanks for your help. Have a great weeekend.
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I have two other bus lane cases with them. Please screenshot all pages of their website for future reference.
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Just to update that the challenge, appeal , representation ( they seem to use all 3 terms) has been lodged and I will update on the outcome as soon I am informed.
Thanks again for the assistance in getting to this stage.
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Will do thank you
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Just send my draft verbatim.
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Thanks I will go ahead and submit my representation
For info looked up where I was going that day and realised ( I don't the area) - that i was about to turn left. Can't 100% sure if into PHillip Road or next left but clearly you can't just vere off the main road to turn. Looked footage as as it ends you can see my left indicator on. I'll be guided by you whether I should mention this or not thank you
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They will probably reject as they are short of cash so just get back to us.
Videalert is the only camera with a VCA certificate for bus lane contraventions in Havering. I surmise this is why they produced none for the cited case.
I am honoured, though, as the FOIR person thinks I am the leader of the council. :o
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Thank you
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Yes. And the text could be added in a pdf.
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Thanks both.
AM I correct that I select - there no breach if asked for reason for representation on web site ( first option on the paper PCN making representation section ) - thank you
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Website grounds for later:
A - The alleged Contravention did not occur
B I was not the owner of the vehicle at the time of contravention
- I had sold the vehicle before that date
- I had bought the vehicle after that date
- I have never owned that vehicle
C - The vehicle was taken without my consent
D - We are a hire firm and have supplied details
E - The Penalty Charge exceeds the relevant amount
F - There has been a procedural impropriety by the Enforcement Authority
G - The traffic order contravened is invalid
H - The Notice should not have been served because the Penalty Charge had already been paid
I - Other
D - G are wrong/irrelevant
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Thanks much appreciated.
So I'm guessing despite the fact they know there are in the wrong they just simply just reject the appeals and hope we cave in and pay
Exactly !
And you know what ? It works for them, because only about 1-2% of PCNs ever end up at the adjudicators. This is because most people know very little about the law on parking and traffic sign, and just cough-up the discounted amount. Almost all OPs we get on here are mainly worried about losing the discount option if they submit representations.
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Thanks much appreciated.
So I'm guessing despite the fact they know there are in the wrong they just simply just reject the appeals and hope we cave in and pay
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I am happy to represent at the Tribunal when the time comes. ;D
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ok thanks and ofcouse I will keep you updated thanks again
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Thank you
So just to make sure I have this correct:
First link is the suggested text for online appeal where I need to include my PCN/Reg and the web code.
The 2nd link is the tribunal appeal decision in case I have to go to appeal
Do we know this is the same camera as that case from the video or can we not be 100% sure.
And presumably there is a chance they could now have the cert or is that unlikely too?
Thank you again
Use the first link. I have done a FOIR re the camera - no need to mention this at this stage as they should reply to the issue raised. Keep us posted please.
TES small blue is the camera - about as helpful as a hole in a pint glass.
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Thank you
So just to make sure I have this correct:
First link is the suggested text for online appeal where I need to include my PCN/Reg and the web code.
The 2nd link is the tribunal appeal decision in case I have to go to appeal
Do we know this is the same camera as that case from the video or can we not be 100% sure.
And presumably there is a chance they could now have the cert or is that unlikely too?
Thank you again
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Thank you - midly dyslexic so had missed the image thing - thanks and now hopefully sorted
No worries. I studied it.
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Herewith. You will need to use your own webcode of course:
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/pcn-driving-in-a-bus-lane-within-restricted-period/msg33334/#msg33334
Screenshot each page as you progress.
There is an issue with the camera so let' see what they say. In the last one we won*, they did not even submit a witness statement. Or turn up. ::) :o :(
Also, their website has issues.
* https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mIvUeg3mWoWLPaoAU17gbnZr1ae9CmEy/view
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Thank you much appreciated.
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Do not pay this. I will advise on a draft later. There are several issues.
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Thank you - midly dyslexic so had missed the image thing - thanks and now hopefully sorted
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I have tried to upload PCN but getting - An Error Has Occurred!
The upload folder is full. Please try a smaller file and/or contact an administrator.
So if someone can guide me on how to resolve that it would be much appreciated. It's just one word file thanks
Have read of this
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
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I have tried to upload PCN but getting - An Error Has Occurred!
The upload folder is full. Please try a smaller file and/or contact an administrator.
So if someone can guide me on how to resolve that it would be much appreciated. It's just one word file thanks
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Hi I have just received a PCN for apparantly driving in a bus lane. clearly had no idea as didn't see signs - probably moved over if the black car behind in the video was bombing up my backside!
Anyway have seen a few cases on here so wondering if there is any legit appeal grounds, especially as a note on their web site now says rejected representations no longer get the discounted rate if ( when! ) rejected.
thank you
Web code is 782RW565
https://parking.havering.gov.uk/pages/OnlineReferenceEntry.aspx?
https://imgur.com/d2hqwqY
https://imgur.com/pirLNDV
https://imgur.com/YtUs8FH