Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: ezycraf on September 02, 2024, 11:29:50 am
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Edinburg Council Parking Enforcement Protocol is clear that no signs are required on motorcycle bays : https://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/downloads/file/31423/parking-enforcement-protocol-v3-october-2022
OP I would stand up for my values and fight this PCN, it is clear they are exploiting motorists while refusing to invest in making legally compliant bays.
You should invest some time on this site: https://www.keycases.info/
Mr H – v – Nottingham City Council (NG00056-2402) stated the following:
- Signs and lines must adequately advise the motorist of the restriction, but do not need to be in pristine condition. Substantial compliance with the regulations is sufficient, but signs must not mislead or fail to inform.
- There is no requirement on the civil enforcement officer to record the model of the vehicle.
- There is no right to an observation period or period of grace.
- The 50% discount is offered to the penalty charge notice only – any further discount is at the council’s discretion.
- The authority has a period of six months to serve the Notice to Owner.
Within the decision:
5. The paintwork of the double yellow lines and of the single yellow kerb marks does not need to be in perfect condition but must substantially comply with the specification. The
key question is whether the extent of any deterioration in the marking is such that the position becomes misleading or fails to inform the motorist (Court of Appeal in R v the
Parking Adjudicator and Sunderland City Council ex parte Herron and another [2011] EWCA Civ 905).
[/quote]
I think in your matter it is clear the extent of any deterioration in the marking is such that the position becomes misleading or fails to inform the motorist.
I would dig out and read this case: Court of Appeal in R v the Parking Adjudicator and Sunderland City Council ex parte Herron and another [2011] EWCA Civ 905
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It is almost inevitable that any representations you submit will be rejected, so best not to be too hung-up on the discount. The person reading your reps will be totally ignorant of the law and will just send you a Fob-Off letter. You'll only get an unbiased judgment at the adjudicators.
Scotland are still on the old 1991 legislation. It was only when Statutory Guidance came in with the Traffic Management Act 2004, that this guidance advised that when rejecting informal challenges received within the discount period, that the discount should be re-offered, and most English councils have this on their PCNs. You will have to contact the council and ask if there is nothing on the PCN about this.
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Follow the appeal process, otherwise it would be messy.
Edinburgh City Council usually allow you a further 14 days to pay the discount rate when you recieve a Notice of Rejection.
thanks, where can I confirm that I would get 14 days discounted rate even after the appeal rejection? Any links etc. That would give me a bit more confidence to fight my case.
There's normally something about this in the small print on the back of the PCN. Look in 'how to challenge'
I checked I can't find anything on the PCN or online. Can someone confirm from experience or any info suggesting that it is the case would be really useful. thanks
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Follow the appeal process, otherwise it would be messy.
Edinburgh City Council usually allow you a further 14 days to pay the discount rate when you recieve a Notice of Rejection.
thanks, where can I confirm that I would get 14 days discounted rate even after the appeal rejection? Any links etc. That would give me a bit more confidence to fight my case.
There's normally something about this in the small print on the back of the PCN. Look in 'how to challenge'
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Follow the appeal process, otherwise it would be messy.
Edinburgh City Council usually allow you a further 14 days to pay the discount rate when you recieve a Notice of Rejection.
thanks, where can I confirm that I would get 14 days discounted rate even after the appeal rejection? Any links etc. That would give me a bit more confidence to fight my case.
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TSRGD 2016 does not require upright signs to be placed at each parking bay and road markings are sufficient to indicate parking bays. It states vertical sign could be omitted if road marking clearly describes a 24/7 restriction.
I'm aware of that but think maybe a dumb challenge is best to expose that if you are going to dispense with a sign in a bay next to signed bays it had better be clear.
Yes also the bay markings are not clear and both these and the bay ends look like they may well have been covered by other cars.
Seems like Edinburgh may be relying on lots of m/cs parked there to make it obvious.
Another point that has won is that the PCN doesn't say what class of vehicle is (not so) apparently allowed.
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I am challenging the contravention on the grounds that it did not occur as there does not appear to be an upright sign for a different bay at the location, only signs for pay and display parking.
I have reviewed the pictures taking by your CEO and there is no picture of an upright sign showing a bay for a different class of vehicle.
I feel this PCN has been issued in error and look forward to your early confirmation of cancellation.
TSRGD 2016 does not require upright signs to be placed at each parking bay and road markings are sufficient to indicate parking bays. It states vertical sign could be omitted if road marking clearly describes a 24/7 restriction.
Repeater signs are especially not required: Mr C – v – Cheshire West and Chester Council
(AW00054-2210)
That being said the markings on the road are not clear and maintained either; this should be included in any appeal in my opinion. Citizens Advice states this but it would be good to quote an adjudicator case reference: https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/parking-tickets/when-to-appeal-a-parking-ticket/#:~:text=The%20parking%20signs%20or%20road,any%20road%20markings%20or%20signs
There is also a duty on the CEO to make sure the road markings are clear so technically the CEO performed a technical improprierity by issuing a PCN on an unclear road marking This can be seen within London Councils Code of Practice on Civil Parking Enforcement (Part 1 of 2) (https://archive.londoncouncils.gov.uk/download/file/fid/23082) requires the following,
[19] CEO duties include: "checking and reporting defective traffic signs and road markings including signs that are missing, obscured or damaged and broken or faded road markings"
Hope this helps. Some of the more experience forum members will surely add on.
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Follow the appeal process, otherwise it would be messy.
Edinburgh City Council usually allow you a further 14 days to pay the discount rate when you recieve a Notice of Rejection.
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You just need to make a challenge as below. See what others say first though.
I am challenging the contravention on the grounds that it did not occur as there does not appear to be an upright sign for a different bay at the location, only signs for pay and display parking.
I have reviewed the pictures taking by your CEO and there is no picture of an upright sign showing a bay for a different class of vehicle.
I feel this PCN has been issued in error and look forward to your early confirmation of cancellation.
thanks, do you think, I can put an appeal with this text and someone may get back by Friday and if not I just pay it before 14 days end as paying full or more would be way too much. there is no contact number to speak to a real person in this case, unfortunately.
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You just need to make a challenge as below. See what others say first though.
I am challenging the contravention on the grounds that it did not occur as there does not appear to be an upright sign for a different bay at the location, only signs for pay and display parking.
I have reviewed the pictures taking by your CEO and there is no picture of an upright sign showing a bay for a different class of vehicle.
I feel this PCN has been issued in error and look forward to your early confirmation of cancellation.
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I always say, follow the process, but there's nothing to prevent you phoning them up, just don't expect them to react favourably. So submit representations as per the process as well. You have the basis of an appeal to adjudicators if you decide to fight the PCN, being the lack of a sign for the motorcycle bay. Just say that if there had been a sign, you would have read it and not parked there.
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thanks for all your comments. Is it worth just calling them (if it is possible, not sure i need to check if they have a contact number) to see if they can cancel my ticket over the phone after I explain to them about my reasons etc.
So, let's say if I decide to appeal today, does that not mean that the remainder of the 14 days would be frozen after the appeal has been decided? From the comments, it looks like this is not the case?
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Well the sign was there looking at the pics now. I didn't know how to check those but thanks for uploading them. do I stand any chance for an appeal? I have heard that if you lose the appeal then the discounted rate of £50 is also gone??
Going to the adjudicators is always with the full PCN penalty in play. This is designed, (some would say cynically designed), to "persuade" the motorist to pay the discount rather than try his luck on what is really a 'double-or-quits'gamble, but it's not different to you getting a police speeding ticket; pay that at £100 or go to court and risk much more.
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Edinburgh appear to have a blanket allowance for motorcycles to park in the marked bays, seemingly without restriction:
https://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/parking-spaces/motorcycles-coaches-buses-caravans-long-large-vehicles
Whether that absolves them from signing the bays other than the road markings I don't know. In this case there appears to be a good argument that the road markings is not clear - doubtless they will see otherwise if you appeal!
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Well the sign was there looking at the pics now. I didn't know how to check those but thanks for uploading them. do I stand any chance for an appeal? I have heard that if you lose the appeal then the discounted rate of £50 is also gone??
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I think we've seen unsigned m/c bays in Edinburgh before. Here it looks like several drivers couldn't see a separate bay and markings and the lack of a sign must surely be a factor even in Scotland.
(https://i.ibb.co/rfn1xbx/Screenshot-2024-09-02-at-17-05-22.png)
(https://i.ibb.co/82qFSFt/Screenshot-2024-09-02-at-17-04-14.png)
(https://i.ibb.co/Q7Bk3MQ/Screenshot-2024-09-02-at-17-04-42.png)
(https://i.ibb.co/HtPd4rN/Screenshot-2024-09-02-at-17-04-51.png)
(https://i.ibb.co/YXmb6p2/Screenshot-2024-09-02-at-17-05-02.png)
(https://i.ibb.co/F42QnGw/Screenshot-2024-09-02-at-17-05-11.png)
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There is no sign for the motorcycle bay, only worn-out text on the carriageway. So if I park a motorcycle, do I have to pay or not ? All the carriageway text says is "Solo M/Cs". There is no word "only". It is marked on the carriageway as a separate bay, (see the double-dashed lines perpendicular to the kerb), so must have its own sign; they cannot escape from this requirement.
So submit reps on the basis that there are no signs to draw attention to the M/C bay, only worn-out text on the carriageway. The lack of a sign giving the conditions for this bay means the PCN cannot be enforced. Don't expect them to roll-over and cancel. Post-up your reps and their response when you get it. If you decide to take the matter to the Scottish adjudicators, you'll have to forego the discount option.
Also note that Scotland are still under the 1991 Act, not the later, Traffic Management Act of 2004.
@Incandescent
re no signs
Google June 2023 shows signs at each end of the bay
https://maps.app.goo.gl/cYEtdDWfqDMQqoZq6
and
https://maps.app.goo.gl/5eEghK3xEp9u3sMK8
@ezycraf - are the signs still there? Hold fire for the moment with Incandescent's suggestion. Were there any Council photos?
Indeed there are two signs, but they are adjacent to the other parking bays on each side of the M/C bay, so the M/C bay has no sign. Note the M/C bay is separately delineated with double-dashed lines perpendicular to the carriageway.
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Lets say even if I was parked in the Solo M/CS bay, I still didn't have any ticket displayed otherwise, I could have argued that I had a valid ticket but was not sure that it was for M/CS etc. However, the markings on the road still remain questionable and I cannot go back and check.
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There is no sign for the motorcycle bay, only worn-out text on the carriageway. So if I park a motorcycle, do I have to pay or not ? All the carriageway text says is "Solo M/Cs". There is no word "only". It is marked on the carriageway as a separate bay, (see the double-dashed lines perpendicular to the kerb), so must have its own sign; they cannot escape from this requirement.
So submit reps on the basis that there are no signs to draw attention to the M/C bay, only worn-out text on the carriageway. The lack of a sign giving the conditions for this bay means the PCN cannot be enforced. Don't expect them to roll-over and cancel. Post-up your reps and their response when you get it. If you decide to take the matter to the Scottish adjudicators, you'll have to forego the discount option.
Also note that Scotland are still under the 1991 Act, not the later, Traffic Management Act of 2004.
@Incandescent
re no signs
Google June 2023 shows signs at each end of the bay
https://maps.app.goo.gl/cYEtdDWfqDMQqoZq6
and
https://maps.app.goo.gl/5eEghK3xEp9u3sMK8
@ezycraf - are the signs still there? Hold fire for the moment with Incandescent's suggestion. Were there any Council photos?
yes the signs on the lamp posts were there, however, I am 99% certain that the signs on the road saying solo M/CS were not there unless I missed it as it was raining and they have faded away since 2023 as the google street view shows.
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There is no sign for the motorcycle bay, only worn-out text on the carriageway. So if I park a motorcycle, do I have to pay or not ? All the carriageway text says is "Solo M/Cs". There is no word "only". It is marked on the carriageway as a separate bay, (see the double-dashed lines perpendicular to the kerb), so must have its own sign; they cannot escape from this requirement.
So submit reps on the basis that there are no signs to draw attention to the M/C bay, only worn-out text on the carriageway. The lack of a sign giving the conditions for this bay means the PCN cannot be enforced. Don't expect them to roll-over and cancel. Post-up your reps and their response when you get it. If you decide to take the matter to the Scottish adjudicators, you'll have to forego the discount option.
Also note that Scotland are still under the 1991 Act, not the later, Traffic Management Act of 2004.
@Incandescent
re no signs
Google June 2023 shows signs at each end of the bay
https://maps.app.goo.gl/cYEtdDWfqDMQqoZq6
and
https://maps.app.goo.gl/5eEghK3xEp9u3sMK8
@ezycraf - are the signs still there? Hold fire for the moment with Incandescent's suggestion. Were there any Council photos?
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There is no sign for the motorcycle bay, only worn-out text on the carriageway. So if I park a motorcycle, do I have to pay or not ? All the carriageway text says is "Solo M/Cs". There is no word "only". It is marked on the carriageway as a separate bay, (see the double-dashed lines perpendicular to the kerb), so must have its own sign; they cannot escape from this requirement.
So submit reps on the basis that there are no signs to draw attention to the M/C bay, only worn-out text on the carriageway. The lack of a sign giving the conditions for this bay means the PCN cannot be enforced. Don't expect them to roll-over and cancel. Post-up your reps and their response when you get it. If you decide to take the matter to the Scottish adjudicators, you'll have to forego the discount option.
Also note that Scotland are still under the 1991 Act, not the later, Traffic Management Act of 2004.
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For meaningful advice please have a read of
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
and post up here both sides of the unredacted PCN, a GSV link to the location and any Council photos.
thanks for your reply.
The link to the google street view is:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/5TtAkK5TUhZWazXdA
Now upon looking at the GSV, I may have parked in the SOLO M/CS bay but I am pretty sure that I didn't see these wording on the road on the day.
Please see the ticket:
https://imgur.com/a/M7E5jZh
thanks and waiting to hear from seniors and experts.
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For meaningful advice please have a read of
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
and post up here both sides of the unredacted PCN, a GSV link to the location and any Council photos.
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Hello fellow members;
I am in a bit of a trouble and would need some help. So, I was visiting Edinburgh, Scotland from England over the weekend on 25th August and I parked in the city centre where the parking restrictions applied until 6:30pm but I parked there at 16:30 thinking that the restrictions have lapsed! You can call it a silly mistake but it happened as I was with family (and kids) so mush have been tired after long drive that I probably misread the signs and assumed that the restrictions were until 16:30 but in fact it was 6:30pm. Perhaps, should have paid a bit more attention. When I returned after about an hour, I found myself with a penalty charge notice. Do I have any grounds to appeal and if yes, could you please guide me to the right direction, your help will be really appreciated. Also, how easy is it to get it overturned without making it into a court case. The ticket was issued by NSL limited (company address is in Sheffield).
The parking ticket says "23 Parked in a parking place not designated for that class of vehicle". I want to appeal as soon as possible but do not know where to start as money saving experts (MSE) parking forum only helps with private parking fines.
Thank you!