Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Dan92 on September 01, 2024, 03:41:19 pm

Title: Re: Derby City Council - Bus Lane
Post by: Incandescent on October 21, 2024, 01:44:16 pm
Hi everyone,

I have received a reply rejecting my appeal from Derby City Council, please see below.

https://imgur.com/a/rZeGn19
Well done !
Just as well because this is the third PCN I've looked at in the last couple of days which is non-compliant with the regulations listed on Page 1. It omits some of the statutory grounds for appeals, especially 'procedural impropriety'
Title: Re: Derby City Council - Bus Lane
Post by: Dan92 on October 21, 2024, 01:25:00 pm
Hi everyone,

After reading through the rejection again, I realised that this wasn't a formal Notice of Rejection, so I put in the same representations as first time.

I have received a response today to say that they still believe the Penalty Charge Notice was issued correctly they have 'used their discretion' to cancel it on this occasion.

Another success - thanks for the help!
Dan
Title: Re: Derby City Council - Bus Lane
Post by: Incandescent on October 08, 2024, 10:20:53 am
post deleted, mis-understanding
Title: Re: Derby City Council - Bus Lane
Post by: Dan92 on October 08, 2024, 06:54:59 am
Hi All,

Please can somebody give me an idea of next steps, I believe I now have just over a week left to pay at the discounted £35 (email sent 25th, 3 weeks takes it to 16th October)
Thanks
Title: Re: Derby City Council - Bus Lane
Post by: Dan92 on September 25, 2024, 03:16:19 pm
Hi everyone,

I have received a reply rejecting my appeal from Derby City Council, please see below.

https://imgur.com/a/rZeGn19

Title: Re: Derby City Council - Bus Lane
Post by: Dan92 on September 13, 2024, 07:19:52 am
Thanks both,
I have submitted the representations online yesterday, after selecting one of the other options and going through it then gave me the option for 'the contravention did not occur' so I used this and the draft supplied above.

Thanks again, this is such a helpful forum, I will update when I hear back.
Title: Re: Derby City Council - Bus Lane
Post by: cp8759 on September 12, 2024, 08:10:30 pm
Shall I just pick one of the options that allows me to make the challenge (for example 'I was accessing a property or road') and put an extra line to explain this?
@Dan92 yes, you don't want to risk sending a letter in the post.
Title: Re: Derby City Council - Bus Lane
Post by: Pastmybest on September 12, 2024, 01:19:00 pm
No head your representation

The contravention did not occur and see if you can upload it If not my advice is to post it first class with free proof of posting. Don't get registered or signed for because the post office do not usually require a council to do so and in law all you need to do is prove it was posted then it is for the council to prove the did not receive it (hard to do that)
Title: Re: Derby City Council - Bus Lane
Post by: Dan92 on September 12, 2024, 11:16:21 am
Hi everyone,
I am trying to make representations online now but as @Pastmybest and @cp8759 have stated, it only gives specific options to appeal, and majority of them just say you are liable and a link to pay.
Shall I just pick one of the options that allows me to make the challenge (for example 'I was accessing a property or road') and put an extra line to explain this?
An awful site that effectively doesn't allow for correct appeals.

Thanks
Dan


Title: Re: Derby City Council - Bus Lane
Post by: Dan92 on September 12, 2024, 08:47:24 am
@cp8759


thanks for checking this, I will get this sent over today!
I will update when I hear back

Title: Re: Derby City Council - Bus Lane
Post by: cp8759 on September 09, 2024, 10:52:01 pm
@Dan92 I'm afraid the council has confirmed the camera is a Roadflow Flexi Camera, and they have a certificate for it. In the circumstances, I suggest you send the representation as drafted above and simply hope for a mistake in the notice of rejection.
Title: Re: Derby City Council - Bus Lane
Post by: cp8759 on September 04, 2024, 07:45:16 pm
Just to clarify - I should not make representations until you have heard back from the camera authorisation?
@Dan92 not quite, if you hear back from me before 12 September then great. If not, make the representation anyway before midnight on that date.
Title: Re: Derby City Council - Bus Lane
Post by: Dan92 on September 03, 2024, 07:37:53 am
All,
Thanks for looking at this!

@cp8759
Thanks!
Reminder set! I also agree the website is awful.

Just to clarify - I should not make representations until you have heard back from the camera authorisation?
Title: Re: Derby City Council - Bus Lane
Post by: cp8759 on September 01, 2024, 09:29:23 pm
@Dan92 here's the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=og11MK4awTA

The traffic order is the Derby City Council (Traffic Street) (Bus, Hackney Carriage and Cycle Lane) Order 2007 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1pHbhWGnMZPDhewOwXQQFw-8qHshkCMnP/view), I can't see any issues with the order but someone else might spot something.

There are at least two options to explore:

1) The camera authorisation, I have made the relevant enquiries, and
2) De-minimis, which appears to be the obvious ground to make representations and buy us some time.

The deadline to make representations and preserve the discount is 12 September 2024, so it's worth setting a reminder or alarm to make sure the deadline is not missed (don't make the representations now as we want to buy as much time as possible, but don't miss the deadline). Here is a draft:

Dear Derby City Council,

I challenge liability on the grounds of any infraction being de-minimis. In Ashfaq Ahmad Chaudhry v London Borough of Merton (2130253836, 11 July 2013) adjudicator Kevin Moore held that "there is a 20 metre rule that should normally be observed before any PCN should be issued and in this case the vehicle clearly was not driven in the bus lane for this distance. In this case the appellant simply made a permitted left turn across a bus lane for no more than 10 metres before turning left"

More recently in Sarah-Jane Mendonca v London Borough of Waltham Forest (2210480049, 6 September 2021) adjudicator Monica Hillen held that "There is a 20 metre rule that should normally be observed before any PCN should be issued and in this case the vehicle clearly was not driven in the bus lane for this distance. In this case the appellant simply made a permitted left turn across a bus lane for no more than 10 metres before turning left at the roundabout"

The same principle applies to this case, it follows that the PCN should be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,

I also agree with @Pastmybest regarding the council website at https://www.derby.gov.uk/transport-and-streets/parking-in-derby/penalty-charge-notices/challenge-penalty-charge-notice/driving-down-bus-lane/ which is nothing short of a disgrace. I will get a nice screen recording for the tribunal, in the meantime to actually make a representation you'll have to go here: https://pcn.derby.gov.uk/Pages/OnlineReferenceEntry.aspx?loadtype=FORMAL

Once you've submitted the representation don't forget to take a screenshot of the confirmation page.
Title: Re: Derby City Council - Bus Lane
Post by: Pastmybest on September 01, 2024, 06:59:44 pm
The website seems to require you to enter a ground of representation which has nothing to do with the law. I entered I did not see the signs, it then told me that the signs were clear and gave me the option to pay
If you cannot make reps on the legal grounds then that is a OI by the council and you will win
Title: Re: Derby City Council - Bus Lane
Post by: Incandescent on September 01, 2024, 05:16:38 pm
You started to move into the bus lane by the white arrow. So this means you were in the bus lane for about 15 metres. There seems to be no on-line facility on the Derby City Council website for viewing the video. This is their sole evidence of the allegd contravention and must be presented to the adjudicator if you decide to take the matter to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal.
Title: Re: Derby City Council - Bus Lane
Post by: Dan92 on September 01, 2024, 04:32:33 pm
Hi, thanks for your reply

PCN
https://imgur.com/a/1WIAn14

Street view
https://maps.app.goo.gl/DPjAkEkCsKzEmF3t5?g_st=ic
Title: Re: Derby City Council - Bus Lane
Post by: John U.K. on September 01, 2024, 04:09:06 pm
Please post all of the remaining page(s) of the PCN - mistakes are often in the 'small print' - and a GSV link to the location.

Title: Derby City Council - Bus Lane
Post by: Dan92 on September 01, 2024, 03:41:19 pm
Hi,
First of all, really impresssed with this site and the fact people are offering their advice for free, thankyou!

I have received a PCN from Derby City Council for driving in a bus lane on Traffic Street
As you can see from the pictures I cut across into the bus lane just before the end of it to get round traffic as I was getting into the third lane which was empty.
I can see a sign in the picture

which I assume is an ‘end of bus lane’ sign so I know I will struggle with this defence, but still seems silly for basically cutting across a few foot of the bus lane

Any advice anyone can give if this is worth appealing or just paying the reduced rate of £35 would be really appreciated

Thanks

https://imgur.com/a/LdZTU90