Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: AFMAC on August 27, 2024, 11:56:04 pm
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Very useful to have this reference. In my case, the car was in for more than 20 metres, however.
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I realise this case is closed. Added for benefit of future readers who may happen on this post. [As I did; my sister got same PCN, same location, same reason. ]
TFL Traffic Enforcement Business Rules appendix 09
Eops Schedule 2 (SoR) Appendix 9 TfL Business Rules
https://content.tfl.gov.uk/eops-schedule2-appendix9-tfl-business-rules.pdf (https://content.tfl.gov.uk/eops-schedule2-appendix9-tfl-business-rules.pdf)
If you note 1.15
"A representation is made on the basis that the driver had to temporarily drive in a bus lane, in order that they could turn left to access a side road or driveway."
"if distance within the Bus Lane is less than 20 metres, accept."
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I will ask them. ;)
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Well done :)
You may wish to redact your name and address from the letter...
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To complete the record on this case, I attach the letter from TFL which arrived by post while I was away, so the email from the Tribunals reached me first.
No indication, of course, what the “administrative error” was.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KlV6c8ykohs6fiHCBySk_Zh63xUh5lBS/view?usp=sharing
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;D Well done for not joining The Mugged Club.
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I appealed to the Tribunal and Hippocrates kindly agreed to represent me, for which I am extremely grateful.
However, I have now received this message from the Tribunal, which says:
“The Enforcement Authority has informed the Tribunal that it will not contest your appeal against the Penalty Charge Notice(s) stated above.”
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1XEL3N5U7FKYjeQcV-4W9FqDV6MZKDy0g/view?usp=sharing
A great result, thanks to FTLA.
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All TFL cases must be filed by post at the Tribunal.
@Hippocrates absolutely not, the scanned appeal form should be sent by email to queries@londontribunals.org.uk to avoid any risk of postal issues, this also maximises the likelihood of TFL preserving the discount even at the appeal stage (because if TFL are told of the appeal while the discount is still on offer, they keep the penalty frozen at the 50% rate even if the appeal is lost, so it's crucial not to waste 4 / 5 days while the paper form goes through the post and gets scanned).
@cp8759 But, in the other thread, the OP made reps on line.
The discount has gone as per the NOR. I will raise the issue of the PCN at the hearing.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1uutCw-_PhKnev9punRphBYVpcWCa1Sa_/view?usp=sharing
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Many thanks.
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All TFL cases must be filed by post at the Tribunal.
@Hippocrates absolutely not, the scanned appeal form should be sent by email to queries@londontribunals.org.uk to avoid any risk of postal issues, this also maximises the likelihood of TFL preserving the discount even at the appeal stage (because if TFL are told of the appeal while the discount is still on offer, they keep the penalty frozen at the 50% rate even if the appeal is lost, so it's crucial not to waste 4 / 5 days while the paper form goes through the post and gets scanned).
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@AFMAC This is now a no brainer it seems to me to file an appeal to the Tribunal. Others may argue re the non-delivery of the PCN. I am more than happy to represent you. The PCN issue may be raised at the Tribunal hearing. I will PM you.
Total failure to consider, which is a collateral ground.
All TFL cases must be filed by post at the Tribunal.
OK: sorted. I am taking care of this one.
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I have today received by email a rejection letter, which I attach, together with my first and second representations.
In respect of the second representation, I made a very silly mistake. I was out of the country, so had to send the letter to my son to post, and managed to send him the version including the reference to crossing the bus lane, instead of the version leaving that out, as recommended by @cp8759. It also omitted the FOI request, but I have since made that separately.
I note they have responded to that statement, but have ignored the statement that it unenforceable. apart from stating “It is clear the PCN has been correctly issued”. They have not therefore dealt with all my representations.
What should I do now? I never received the PCN, and so never had an opportunity to pay the discounted amount of £80.
Kind regards
Rejection
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1uutCw-_PhKnev9punRphBYVpcWCa1Sa_/view?usp=sharing
Rep 1 https://drive.google.com/file/d/1UhhEQZdr82TmW9wWOxshTw_mkQ1oFBcw/view?usp=sharing
Rep 2 https://drive.google.com/file/d/1HI81Whl0gJGxntUxAUpeXNUb7Z_yvCpQ/view?usp=sharing
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I have now received the video, and attach it. It doesn’t add much to the photos, but it does show that the car stopped after passing our gate posts, and is positioned ready to reverse into the entrance.
The status online is shown as
01 October 2024On Hold: CORRES RECEIVED PRIOR TO WARRANT
N/A
01 October 2024On Hold: SUS26 - Representation Received
N/A
Should I make a further representation?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gxtPnrf8AG3Ngs1NqJ-bEBGv0h0N70YY/view?usp=drive_link
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@cp8759. Many thanks. I will post anything I get back.
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@AFMAC you are not required to give them anything at all as long as you claim they should cancel the penalty owing to a statutory ground of appeal being made out.
We don't know if there is a traffic order that legally creates a bus lane, we don't know if there is evidence of upright signs, we don't know if the CCTV camera is an approved device, the list is endless. Any of those factors could mean that the contravention did not occur.
The only thing I would add to the representation is an FOI request for the make and model of the camera, you must ask for this within the representation itself or you won't get a response.
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@cp8759. Thank you. I am very grateful for all the advice on FTLA, which is based on such considerable knowledge and experience.
I am in Italy, but can get my son to post my further representations.
On your second point, I thought that something needed to be added to the simple statement “The alleged contravention did not occur”. I completely understand your point about not giving them an inch, but since the photo shows the car clearly in a bus lane, I don’t follow that it is making a concession by acknowledging that. But I agree that one can’t be too careful.
Regards
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I think that I could add “because the vehicle was crossing the bus lane to reach an off-street parking place.”
Why would you admit that the vehicle crossed the bus lane? Everything you say can and will be used against you, so don't give them anything.
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@AFMAC you'll have to make a representation by post. If you try any other method TFL will say they could disregard the representations because they were not made in the form and manner stated in the enforcement notice.
Get proof of postage.
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Thanks. That page has lots of links on it. The one marked “Challenge a PCN” leads to where I went before, with no ability to add to a previous challenge.
However, if you click on “Contact red routes” then “Online form: ask a question” and then “Make an enquiry”, you can choose “Penalty charges and enforcement” to post up to 3,000 characters and upload docs. Just giving all this detail as it might help other people.
I will upload your text, appropriately adjusted, and and will post anything that I get back.
You text includes the statement “The alleged contravention did not occur”. I think that I could add “because the vehicle was crossing the bus lane to reach an off-street parking place.”
And then “In any case, the PCN is unenforceable because … …”
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https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/tfl-bus-lane-contravention-n-circular-rd-btw-chequers-way-green-lanes/msg30530/#msg30530
In the above post.
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Many thanks.
How do I submit this? The receipt for the previous change came from a “noreply” address, and on the Challenge page for the PCN, there is no longer a place to submit anything.
Is there an email address that I can use? Or do I have to ring them to say that I want to add to my challenge because I have now received the PCN?
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I would put this in tweaked accrodingly:
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/tfl-bus-lane-contravention-n-circular-rd-btw-chequers-way-green-lanes/msg30167/#msg30167
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My apologies. I drafted a reply to thank Hippocrates and to say that I had submitted the suggested wording, but it doesn’t seem to have been posted.
The reply from tflenforcement.com dated 9 September 2024 as follows:
“Thank you - your representation has been submitted
We'll review your representation and send a response to the registered keeper/liable party. The enforcement process will now be suspended. We aim to respond to you within 15 days - please contact us if you have not received a response after 21 days.”
No response yet, but I have received the copy of the original PCN, and have uploaded it below with the covering letter. I see that photo 3 from the website does not appear on the PCN.
There was also a document entitled “Important information. Please read.” I imagine that that is always the same, but I can upload a copy if required.
Is there anything that I should do now? The next step will presumably be the response to my challenge.
The video requested has not arrived.
Kind regards
https://drive.google.com/file/d/19gNC6MSh1mHcyNL950jsAirvRKPTL40J/view?usp=drive_link
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qGcxRz2-nytCu0mu9GHNSqnv0zZgZX0k/view?usp=drive_link
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1VrlwKP9gNiVURfx_B5oWohpIx1uDvvpW/view?usp=drive_link
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Please do not send this as it is far too candid.
*****
I never received this PCN, but did receive an Enforcement Notice dated 12 August 2024.
I telephoned TFL on 28 August to ask for a copy of the PCN and also the relevant video, and my case was put on hold for 14 days. I have not received anything and I understand that nothing has yet been sent to me.
The background to this PCN is that I moved into Flat 1, 248 Clapham Road in 2015. It has off street parking, with a bus lane and cycle lane across the entrance. A camera has recently been installed covering this stretch of road, and this camera has generated the PCN.
I can absolutely confirm that the PCN was not delivered to Flat 1. Since the other flats in the building have a different entrance, it is possible that it was delivered (wrongly) to that entrance as sometimes happens. This is, however, unlikely, as the other occupants usually put such mail through my letter box. "
I am placed at a distinct disadvantage as I have not received the PCN. Furthermore, the EN does not show any signage allegedly passed.
Please cancel the PCN/EN or at least resend the original of the former.
Regards
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I am proposing to send my draft to TFL later today unless anyone comments.
I am not complaining at lack of comments, as I know that you are all volunteers, and I am very grateful for the input so far.
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If and when you receive the PCN, I am here to help you as it is deficient in several regards.
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/tfl-bus-lane-contravention-n-circular-rd-btw-chequers-way-green-lanes/msg30167/#msg30167
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I have rung TFL because the PCN and video have not arrived. They told me that nothing had yet been sent, and that I needed to log my challenge before the hold runs out on (I think) next Tuesday. I was also told that the hold automatically stops when they SEND the information, which makes no sense.
My draft of what I might write, for you to consider, is as follows.
“I never received this PCN, but did receive an Enforcement Notice dated 12 August 2024.
I telephoned TFL on 28 August to ask for a copy of the PCN and also the relevant video, and my case was put on hold for 14 days. I have not received anything and I understand that nothing has yet been sent to me.
The background to this PCN is that I moved into Flat 1, 248 Clapham Road in 2015. It has off street parking, with a bus lane and cycle lane across the entrance. A camera has recently been installed covering this stretch of road, and this camera has generated the PCN.
I understand that I am allowed to cross the bus lane to reach my parking place. My own practice has been to cross the bus lane opposite the entrance, turn parallel to the pavement and go beyond the entrance, and then reverse in. This is necessary because of the nature of my parking pace, and desirable in order not to reverse across the pavement when I leave. If I went in forwards, I would have to carry out a similar manoeuvre when leaving. I believe that this process is compatible with the bus lane regulations, as it minimises the time my car is in the bus lane.
My wife was driving at the time of this PCN. She has followed a different pattern, as she did on this occasion. She entered the bus lane a short distance away from the entrance, drove to beyond the entrance and stopped, as shown in your third photograph. She then reversed into the entrance, as the video will no doubt show.
She went into the bus lane when she did in order to avoid inconveniencing any cyclist in the cycle lane, believing that it was therefore safer, and that it was compatible with the rules.
My first challenge is therefore that the time that the car spent in the bus lane was not excessive, was compatible with the rules and the PCN should therefore be cancelled.
If you conclude that my wife’s driving was not strictly compatible with the rules, then I request that on this occasion you should exercise your discretion to waive the penalty.
I reserve the right to add to my challenge when I have seen the PCN and video.
I also request that, if you do not waive the penalty, the charge should be reduced to £80, as it would have been if I had received the PCN, as I should have done.
I can absolutely confirm that the PCN was not delivered to Flat 1. Since the other flats in the building have a different entrance, it is possible that it was delivered (wrongly) to that entrance as sometimes happens. This is, however, unlikely, as the other occupants usually put such mail through my letter box. "
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Thanks. Will do.
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Make sure that 10th September is in your diary because the 'Hold' will come off on that date even if you haven't received the video. We've seen quite a few people just wait around for it, and over-run the Hold period and also the deadline for payment or appealing, and thus lose their right to submit reps.
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Thanks for the advice.
I rang TFL customer service on 0343 2221234 and was told to ring 0844 5448458, which says it costs £5 per minute.
I then searched online for a PCN query number and found 0343 2223333, which worked.
They will send me the video, and a copy of the PCN letter. I was first told to look online for this, but only found the bare data. I had to insist that I wanted the full letter, and that is being sent.
I was also told that the PCN is on hold, and to ring them if the stuff had not arrived by 10 September. I asked for the discount back and was told to raise that if/when I am going to pay.
I will upload as soon as I get anything.
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Ask them for the PCN too as the last one I saw had wording issues.
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Many thanks for very quick response.
How do I apply for a video?
You have to ring them up. Make sure you mention you're at EN stage because the PCN never arrived.
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Many thanks for very quick response.
How do I apply for a video?
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Clearly a difficult situation for parking at your address !
It looks as if the driver of your car entered the bus lane at its start, although until you obtain and post the video this is conjecture on my part, but the photos show the car in the bus lane very close to its starting point. This will be why the PCN was served.
I think the way you handle the situation for backing-in without getting a PCN, must mean they look at your manoeuvre and decide not to serve a PCN. Your driver was obviously not aware of the "procedure", i.e to not drive any distance in the bus lane.
You need to get the video off TfL, (it's a DVD) and post it here. This should freeze the process for about 2 weeks, but check with TfL when requesting it.
If you have to submit some reps, (video hasn't turned up after 2 weeks), you need to emphasise two things: -
1. The driver was driving so as to be able to safely back the vehicle into the property. Emphasise it is essential to back in because vehicles cannot be turned round, and backing-out is extremely dangerous as there is no visibility due to the wall.
2. Due to problems with postal delivery, the PCN was not received by yourself before they served an EN therefore you have lost the discount opportunity and request it is re-offered.
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Apologies. I am new to all this. I think that I have released them all now.
I tried to sign in to imgur.com but couldn't.
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Can't open any of your links, you need to release them to, (I think), "public"
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Hello
The date of the incident was 8 July 2024.
I found an enforcement notice dated 12 August at my home after being away for 2 weeks, referring to a PCN “batched” on 11 July.
I never received the PCN. I live in a flat with a separate front door from the other flats in the building, so post is sometimes delivered (by Royal Mail as well as by others) to the wrong door.
I have off street parking in front of the house, reached over a dropped pavement.
That stretch of Clapham Road is an all times bus lane, which also has a marked cycle path.
I believe that I am allowed to cross the bus lane to reach my property, and my own practice is to cross opposite the entrance, drive a bit further parallel to the pavement, and then reverse in. Going in forward would be difficult for the parking area, but more importantly it would be dangerous to reverse out across the pavement with no view of it.
I have been living there for 6 years, and have never had any PCNs. A camera has recently (not sure exactly when) been installed to cover this stretch of road, but I have not received any PCNs when I have been driving.
On this occasion I was not driving, and the driver entered the bus lane about 2 houses before our entrance, which is between the white topped pillars – photo 1. The reason for entering the bus lane early is that it is safer because of the frequent cyclists in the bus lane – although there were none on this occasion. Photo 3 shows the car stopped and about to reverse into the entrance.
I need help with my representations in two respects. The non-receipt of the PCN, which has increased the penalty from £80 to £160, and a challenge to the penalty because of the need to enter the bus lane to get to my property. I have until 9 Sept to make representations.
I give below links to the following:
Page 1 of the Enforcement Notice
PCN details from TFL website
Photos 1, 2 and 3 from the TFL website
Many thanks
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1--ckWwucUL3ksk2oHF2u6DuPa5ixVoOT/view?usp=drive_link
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ijKKbXoPq5MBHp2UeLiWrvSydO6hLT7n/view?usp=drive_link
https://drive.google.com/file/d/19Lso9KkbDyNSIt0orWOJiY3_CuNPvXpS/view?usp=drive_link
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1o7NVXGRDrJvy1TqYcNZaIisbXHS6CrXO/view?usp=drive_link
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1F8mXR1GBsSxdCt4WVwrbTVM2UGpseOWQ/view?usp=drive_link
https://maps.app.goo.gl/Z8uHDJCEjd2GQAo36