Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: I-LOV-MONEY on August 25, 2024, 11:53:58 am
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Just to bring you up to date. I had two PCNs from TfL for allegedly parking on a red route.
I have today received a letter from TfL saying that they are not contesting the appeal for the first one 🥳 - my first Christmas present! Hopefully they will do the same for the second.
My thanks to @cp8759 for his help with this.
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@I-LOV-MONEY when you file an appeal the tribunal sends a notification both to the motorist and to TFL informing the parties that the PCN has been appealed and a hearing has been scheduled. If TFL get that email while the discount is still on offer, TFL freezes the discount so even if you lose the appeal, the penalty stays at the 50% rate. Of course there is no guarantee that TFL will continue to do this, but they have done it consistently for many years so you'd have to be exceptionally unlucky for them to happen to change their policy next week.
Anyway I'm going to drop you a PM in case you'd like me to represent you.
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@cp8759
I got a rejection letter last night - I found it in my junk folder (!). What is a ‘tribunal scheduling letter’ ?
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@I-LOV-MONEY the representations have been rejected, you have 14 days to get the tribunal scheduling letter to TFL to stop the amount increasing. If you don't have the notice of rejection by Monday I would suggest filing a manual appeal.
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@cp8759
It occurred to me, the outstanding amount due is still £80. This of course is the lower rate. They have not provided me with a date before it increases to the full amount. Can they change it without giving me prior notice?
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@cp8759
Just thought I would check. The original PCN still shows at £80. They have not given me a ‘pay by’ date! I am in no rush!!!
I haven’t received the DVD for the second one yet!
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As long as you've made a representation against the new PCN, that's all that matters.
As soon as I get the new DVD I will do exactly as I have done with the first. (Contravention didn’t occur).
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@cp8759 I have just requested the second DVD. This time she gave me a reference number and said when I have reviewed it to come back to them. Have the procedures changed as i wasn't asked to do that the first time.
As long as you've made a representation against the new PCN, that's all that matters.
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@cp8759 I have just requested the second DVD. This time she gave me a reference number and said when I have reviewed it to come back to them. Have the procedures changed as i wasn't asked to do that the first time.
She knew that I still had a PCN outstanding.
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Do I have to do anymore at present, regarding the first one?
As long as you have logged the representation, the only other thing I'd suggest is checking the PCN status once a week so that if they reject the representations, you can find out from the TFL website and you can therefore act on that even if the NoR is lost in the post.
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@cp8759 I have the second PCN. I will ring TfL On Monday for the CCTV footage for this one.
Do I have to do anymore at present, regarding the first one?
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@I-LOV-MONEY yes DRLs are 24/7, let us know when you get the other PCN.
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@cp8759 Oh no, I have done it again near the same location. It was outside one of the marked boxes, on DRL just close to the tube station entrance. I couldn’t have been more than a minute, my wife was coming from the station. However, I suppose a stop is a stop even for a short time. I wil go through the same procedure, and ask for the DVD. I will be interested to see if there were any tailbacks in front of me as there are traffic lights there and often waiting traffic.
I will not be parking on that road again unless I am absolutely sure there are no restrictions. Incidentally the marked boxes give times of restrictions, the DRL doesn’t. Is the DRL applicable 24/7?
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@cp8759. Completed the form this morning. Fine still £80. They aim to respond within 15 days.
I have done a screenshot of the confirmation page. Do you want me to post it here?
(I need to go to a meeting shortly)
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I have done that, and it took me back to a page asking for my name and address again and contact details. Done all that and tried to submit it, and a message came up about a technical error! The submit box has now changed to ‘please wait’ (I tried going back, but it gives me the same message!
Sorry, something's gone wrong
We have a technical problem. You won't be able to make London Road User Charging transactions at the moment.
Please try again later.
(I need my bed!)
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@cp8759. I have already ‘ticked’ the contravention didn’t occur on the previous page, under Representation Details. I just repeat that?
@I-LOV-MONEY yes.
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@cp8759. I have already ‘ticked’ the contravention didn’t occur on the previous page, under Representation Details. I just repeat that?
It will only let me go back as far as ‘Make a Representation’, with a list of ‘Representation Details’….
The Contravention did not Occur.
The Traffic Order was invalid.
I was not the owner/keeper at the time of the Contravention [i/i] Etc.
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@I-LOV-MONEY in that box just type "the contravention did not occur", do not write "to follow". Take a screenshot of the confirmation page.
The recording is of no importance and frankly as you won't be paying anyway, it hardly matters.
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@cp8759. I have indicated that the ‘contravention did not occur’. Now it has given me a box, and in red underneath it says ‘ Give additional information about your representation’. Do I put something in there? It won’t let me continue without putting something in. What about ‘to follow’?
It does show that the charge is still £80. When I requested the DVD I asked when I should pay by (if I was to pay). She said it would be in the covering letter - it wasn’t! Obviously I can’t prove she said that. Do I presume that it is 21 days from ‘date on which this notice is served’? I presume with your help it will be under that time anyway.
I hope to be able to post the recording tomorrow afternoon (I am out in the morning).
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@I-LOV-MONEY just create a folder in google drive or dropbox and drag the video file into it, there's plenty of tutorials on youtube that explain how to do this.
In the meantime the 28 day deadline for you to make representations has long since past and TFL could issue a charge certificate at any time increasing the penalty to £240, and you would then have no right to appeal. Given the urgency, please go to https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/challenge-a-pcn and make a one-line representation just saying "the contravention did not occur", this should at least get you a notice of rejection which will give you a right to appeal.
This is mega-urgent so I suggest you do it this evening.
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Yes. That was easy enough!!
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Now if someone could explain, in simple terms (!) how to copy it to Google Drive or Dropbox, I will do.
Have you got a computer with a DVD drive?
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@cp8759 I have now received the DVD (I was hoping they had forgotten me!). At first it shows general traffic moving, then zooms in on my car. You can see it is between two boxes, but doesn’t show it is opposite an alleyway, if that is relevant.
Now if someone could explain, in simple terms (!) how to copy it to Google Drive or Dropbox, I will do.
BTW The letter doesn’t say by when I should submit my claim - maybe I have until October 2025!!!!!
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@cp8759 I have requested the CCTV footage. It takes approx 15 working days, but the charge will be put on hold in the meantime. She couldn’t tell me for how long, it will be in the letter.
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IMO, DRL need signs to indicate the prohibition because it's permissible to have exceptions to the 24/7 blanket e.g. except in marked bays etc. Therefore as the RR is starting afresh after the previous RR prohibition, which was part-time, then how else could this be conveyed other than with a sign?
There is no indication in TSRGD or TSM that at the beginning of a RR a motorist should presume a blanket 24/7 no exceptions prohibition. IMO it should be signed to make it clear.
I don't know the context of Mr. Justice Smith's comment, but the regs seem perfectly clear.
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@cp8759
I think we were posting virtually simultaneously there!
I will ring for the CCTV footage tomorrow.
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@I-LOV-MONEY I have fixed your post above to show the picture. There is no requirement for camera warning signs, you're expected to obey all laws 100% of the time regardless of whether there's a camera or not.
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@cp8759
Here is a sign in one of the parking bays on the road (not the bay I was actually parked in). I notice that there is no image of a camera on the sign - is this releavant?
(https://i.imgur.com/v5pEnkE.png)
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DRL - but no upright sign which there must be IMO because this is a RR prohibition in its own right. So what exemptions, if any, apply?
TfL seem to think that whatever applied to the RR before box 1 must necessarily apply to DRL after box 2.
IMO, wrong if for no other reason than the RR prohibition immediately preceding the OP was tnat in box 2, which was improperly signed.
Can the OP use this to their advantage?
OP, sorry to write at such length but I felt I should set out my reasoning in full.
I'm really struggling to follow this, DRLs do not require an upright sign as such, they only require an upright sign if the authority wants to use CCTV enforcement. Yes I know that seems bonkers, but it's what Mr Justice Swift said.
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IMO,
According to the 2-year old GSV this length of road consists of:
DRL - with whatever prohibition applies;
A white box (box 1) in which the RR restriction is Mon-Sat etc. with given exceptions on the bottom panel of a 3-panelled sign;
Another separate white box(box 2) - indicated by the parallel markings at right-angles to the kerb- with the same RR prohibition but different exceptions indicated on a 2-panel sign.
Further DRL.
The discrepancy between the two boxes is clear: one has 3 panels, the other has 2.
The prescribed form of a RR sign - anywhere on a RR - consists of THREE panels (Schedule 6 TSRGD and TSM Chapter 3, s16 refer which are:
Top: RED ROUTE
Middle: Times of prohibition;
Bottom: Exceptions.
Where there are NO exceptions, as on most plain and simple double RR, then the bottom panel 'may be omitted'.
A marked box indicates exceptions and therefore:
As regards the first box, a sign must be placed because there's a change to the prohibition from what preceded the box; and
This sign must consist of 3 panels, which it does.
As the exempted activities apply for the whole of the prohibited hours the box must be marked white, which it is.
As regards box 2, the sign is incorrect because exemptions can only be signed on a 3-panel sign.
But apparently the OP was not in box 2, they were parked on DRL beyond therefore it follows that there should be an upright 2 or 3-panel sign to indicate the prohibition which applies.
What TfL appear to have done is to imagine that the preceding RR prohibition continues naturally once the limits of the box have been passed.
Nonsense.
So in this short stretch of RR IMO we have:
DRL - with whatever prohibition applied at that point, let's say prohibition 1;
Box 1 with part-time prohibition 2 which operates as shown;
Box 2 - incorrectly signed, so a length of RR in its own right improperly signed. As such I don't know whether the markings should be white or red;
DRL - but no upright sign which there must be IMO because this is a RR prohibition in its own right. So what exemptions, if any, apply?
TfL seem to think that whatever applied to the RR before box 1 must necessarily apply to DRL after box 2.
IMO, wrong if for no other reason than the RR prohibition immediately preceding the OP was tnat in box 2, which was improperly signed.
Can the OP use this to their advantage?
OP, sorry to write at such length but I felt I should set out my reasoning in full.
As I read Schedule 18 TSRGD reference to d)making a reference to a bank or public holiday. is acceptable.
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When I receive the video, what am I looking for?
@I-LOV-MONEY the 21 days run from the date of service of the notice, which is two working days after posting.
Once you have the video upload it to a google drive or dropbox folder so that we can take a look.
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@cp8759
Thank you. I will ring them tomorrow.
I think the 21 days from 22 August (date of the notice) will be 11 September?
When I receive the video, what am I looking for?
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There are upright signs in each of the parking bays noting the specific restriction. I believe that the signs also have an image of a camera on them. I will check.
@I-LOV-MONEY I don't believe there are any upright signs for the DRLs themselves.
I cannot prove what day the letter was sent / received.
The audit trail that TFL provides to the tribunal normally confirms this.
The PCN says that if I wish to view the CCTV footage, it has to be at a TfL office, by writing to them in Darlington.
Forget about what the PCN says, please call TFL on Monday and ask for the video. They will put the penalty on hold and send you a DVD in the post. We've been doing this a very long time and we know how this works.
Nothing you do is completely guaranteed to stop the clock, so you must make representations by 15 September to preserve the discount.
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@cp8759 Thank you for joining this post.
@ That being said, in Transport for London, R (on the application of) v London Tribunals (Environment and Traffic Adjudicators) [2023] EWHC 2889 (Admin) (https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2023/2889.pdf) the High Court said that in order to enforce with a CCTV camera, there must be an upright sign regardless of whether there are single or double red lines, so there's an arguable case on that point as the DRLs have no upright sign.
There are upright signs in each of the parking bays noting the specific restriction. I believe that the signs also have an image of a camera on them. I will check.
Furthermore, TFL tends to post the PCNs the day after the date printed on the face of the notice, which is also a procedural impropriety.
I cannot prove what day the letter was sent / received.
So, in terms of next steps, I suggest you call TFL first thing on Monday on 0343 222 3333 and ask for the video, they will send you a DVD in the post. In the meantime I'll get hold of the traffic order.
The PCN says that if I wish to view the CCTV footage, it has to be at a TfL office, by writing to them in Darlington. Where are their offices? Still images "or a copy of the recording can be sent to you" Is a copy of the recording not the same as CCTV footage? Again I have to write to TfL, but it does say "the penalty charge will be placed on hold whilst this is being processed." Do they start from 28 days again?
In some way or another we've managed to beat every red route PCN since the judicial review, something always seems to crop up.
Keep up the good work!!
*The formating of this reply is a little strange! I hope it looks better once I post.
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@I-LOV-MONEY some councils might use their discretion not to enforce on bank holidays, but legally they could. TFL enforces every days of the year without exception, as they are legally entitled to.
That being said, in Transport for London, R (on the application of) v London Tribunals (Environment and Traffic Adjudicators) [2023] EWHC 2889 (Admin) (https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2023/2889.pdf) the High Court said that in order to enforce with a CCTV camera, there must be an upright sign regardless of whether there are single or double red lines, so there's an arguable case on that point as the DRLs have no upright sign.
Furthermore, TFL tends to post the PCNs the day after the date printed on the face of the notice, which is also a procedural impropriety.
And as a general rule TFL will extend the discount even at the tribunal stage, as long as the tribunal tells them about the appeal while the discount is still available.
So, in terms of next steps, I suggest you call TFL first thing on Monday on 0343 222 3333 and ask for the video, they will send you a DVD in the post. In the meantime I'll get hold of the traffic order.
In some way or another we've managed to beat every red route PCN since the judicial review, something always seems to crop up.
And for what it's worth, I have seen signs that say "Except bank holidays", from memory I think there are some in the City of London.
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However some councils don't bother enforcing on some Bank Holidays but never announce this. I presume it's to save the CEO wages.
LB of Barnet kindly put on line which parking restrictions are / are not enforced on Bank Holidays.
https://www.barnet.gov.uk/parking/parking-and-traffic-enforcement/parking-restrictions#title-1
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I cannot recollect ever seeing a sign that says ‘Bank Holidays exempt’.
Nor me. But so many motorists seem to think they are, and we see their posts on here when they get the inevitable PCN.
However some councils don't bother enforcing on some Bank Holidays but never announce this. I presume it's to save the CEO wages.
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Bank Holidays are never exempt unless the sign says so.
I cannot recollect ever seeing a sign that says ‘Bank Holidays exempt’.
Best not to chance your arm in London, especially on Red Routes. London councils make millions from PCN penalties.
Thanks for your advice.
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Bank Holidays are never exempt unless the sign says so.
I did, but I thought I was safe because I didn't see any traffic wardens (if I did I would have moved on).
Best not to chance your arm in London, especially on Red Routes. London councils make millions from PCN penalties.
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They can, but it is not a fre-for-all for them, but I'm not up-to-speed on the details, so hopefully cp8759, the admininstrator will comment.
Thanks.
If you were opposite the alleyway did you not notice the double-red lines ?
I did, but I thought I was safe because I didn't see any traffic wardens (if I did I would have moved on). I didn't think of cameras. They must have a number of cameras there, because there are several bays, some with a different restriction.
On a different point, do you know if Monday to Saturday restrictions are enforceable on Bank Holidays, if it isn't mentioned on the plate? (I haven't parked there today, but it is just out of interest).
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They can, but it is not a fre-for-all for them, but I'm not up-to-speed on the details, so hopefully cp8759, the admininstrator will comment.
If you were opposite the alleyway did you not notice the double-red lines ?
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PCN says parked outside 26-28, so here are the two properties, and GSV shows there is no parking bay there, only double-red lines, so you would seem, on the face of it, to be bang-to-rights unless you can tell us different.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/xM53cmLy6qASNbe79
Thank you. This is what I thought. I think I was actually parked by the alleyway (nobody going in or coming out).
Do you know anything about the article in Flame Pit, on whether TfL can legally use cameras for parking offences? (reply #5 above)
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PCN says parked outside 26-28, so here are the two properties, and GSV shows there is no parking bay there, only double-red lines, so you would seem, on the face of it, to be bang-to-rights unless you can tell us different.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/xM53cmLy6qASNbe79
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Okay. I now have the Streetview image. I don’t think it tells you much. It is one long stretch of road, with various sections marked. Unfortunately when this photo was taken, ther3 does not seem to be many Red Route signs.
I don’t know how to embed this pic onto the forum, but this is the link. (I don’t seem to have three dots on l/h side as suggested).
https://maps.app.goo.gl/oajEf7svrvfCyRZ56
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More by accident than design (!) I have managed to post the image of my PCN.
(https://i.imgur.com/NHezFqO.png)
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Sorry, no good without more info. Please read this and update your post accordingly: -
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
(https://imgur.com/a/IQFbKqI)
I am obviously doing something wrong. I inserted the link using the icon as identified in the 'Read this First' notes. I inserted the Share link / Copy link but nothing appears here :-[ I can't find the three dots to Copy Link and Get share links.
Unless some kind person would help me and explain what I am doing wrong, I will have to abandon this.
I did see on Flame Pit (unfortunately cannot find the link now) that somebody was challenging TfL whether it was legal to use a camera to catch people parking. I could not see an outcome. Can somebody tell me if the Law Lords agreed that they couldn't use a camera? Hopefully somebody will remember. If so, that is my case!
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Sorry, no good without more info. Please read this and update your post accordingly: -
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
I had hoped to post the image of the PCN. It didn't work, so I have removed it and will try again.
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Read what is on the link I posted. GSV link to exact location also useful
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Apologies for not replying. Computer problems (computer says “no” when I try to upload images!). I am hopeful of better luck tomorrow when it has had a night’s rest!
I am presuming it is a copy of the PCN that is required. If it is anything else please let me know.
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Sorry, no good without more info. Please read this and update your post accordingly: -
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
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As you drive south down the Watford Way (A41) towards Hendon Central station, there are several parking bays. They all have different restrictions regarding time / loading *. I obviously parked in the wrong bay for the time of day (I have checked it) and was caught by a camera.
I presume I have no defence as I was waiting for my wife to arrive at the station, when she would phone and I then drive a further few yards and pick her up.
The PCN does say that ‘This notice also serves as a notice to owner’. I presume that it is legal.
Just thought I would post this just in case somebody happens to know a loophole.
* I drove by again this morning. Some bays are no parking, other is parking only if charging an EV. Another is parking for one hour (no return within two hours). It is the same stretch of road, why can’t it all be the same?
I haven’t posted the PCN, as I expect it is standard and unlikely to have any flaws, but obviously can do, if required.