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Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Edd177 on August 22, 2024, 03:28:15 pm

Title: Re: Barking & Dagenham, code 73 parking without payment of the parking charge, Barking Park Western Car Park,FREE parkin
Post by: Grant Urismo on September 02, 2024, 01:54:50 pm
I don't think it would hurt to add one paragraph to cp8759's draft:

I also challenge liability on the grounds that I have not violated a valid parking order. I note that The London Borough of Barking and Dagenham (off-street parking places) Amendment Order no. 202 does not include any requirement for parking sessions at this location lasting up to 2 hours that I have not met. If you do not cancel this PCN I will put you to strict proof that a parking Order was in place at the time that required the payment of a fee (or any other action on my part) for off-street parking at this time in this location.
Title: Re: Barking & Dagenham, code 73 parking without payment of the parking charge, Barking Park Western Car Park,FREE parkin
Post by: H C Andersen on September 02, 2024, 10:40:15 am
IMO OP, your circumstances are not the same.

In the cited case it was common ground that a ticket was displayed and that the PCN was issued within 10 minutes of the ticket being displayed. As I read it, the 'not valid..' alternative arose only because the VRM had not been included when the ticket was obtained.

Your circumstances are different in that there is no objective evidence as to how long you were parked, in other words, if you were parked for more than 2 hours then payment was required. So, was it possible on the evidence available to the CEO that a parking charge was due?

It would seem so unless, for example, charging hours started less than 2 hours before the PCN was issued. But they didn't. You could have been parked for 5 hours. I suggest you flesh out the 'I was parked for less than 2 hours' part and perhaps add that if the authority accept that you were so parked then the contravention is clearly wrong.

However, you could still succeed at adjudication but it could well depend on the reasoning in their rejection.
Title: Re: Barking & Dagenham, code 73 parking without payment of the parking charge, Barking Park Western Car Park,FREE parkin
Post by: cp8759 on September 02, 2024, 12:35:06 am
What a pile of bollocks, the PCN is blatantly invalid because it alleges that the parking charge wasn't paid, but the parking charge is zero, see John Carmody v London Borough of Redbridge (2210237357, 24 June 2021) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1N2RYak_r55cwQFhiRznWqZqU8mhAfR5F/view)

I allow the appeal because the PCN was issued for the wrong contravention. A vehicle cannot be parked without payment of the parking charge when no charge is payable. The PCN should have been issued for the alleged contravention of being parked without displaying a valid pay and display ticket.

Draft representation:

Dear London Borough of Barking and Dagenham,

I challenge liability on the ground that the alleged contravention did not occur, this is because I was parked for less than two hours so the only payment due was zero.

Yours faithfully,


Send this online via https://parkingpayments.lbbd.gov.uk/3sc/ and keep a screenshot of the confirmation page.
Title: Re: Barking & Dagenham, code 73 parking without payment of the parking charge, Barking Park Western Car Park,FREE parkin
Post by: Grant Urismo on September 01, 2024, 11:59:29 pm
Quote from: H C Andersen on August 28, 2024, 02:31:08 pm
IMO, as the off-street order is only amended by these revisions and not revoked and remade then you need to see the whole order to see whether there was and still is an existing provision regarding how free periods are obtained.

Agreed, this is why I wrote that it needs more looking in to, I can't however find "The London Borough of Barking and Dagenham (Off-Street Parking Places) Order 2017" online.

Having said that, the amending order does say...

"1. The items shown in Schedule 1 to this Notice shall replace those items in Schedule 1 to the Off-Street Order to:
a. remove the current 30mins free parking and change the current charges for 1 hour tariffs to ‘free’ for all
emissions for payment parking places;
b. change the payment parking places in Barking Park Western Car Park to max stay 6 hours no return within
2 hours, the current 1hr tariff shall be removed and a tariff for up to 6 hours will be added and the charges
for all tariffs will be replaced by those shown in Schedule 1 to this Notice;" (emphasis added)

...so I think the OP is on pretty safe ground here.
Title: Re: Barking & Dagenham, code 73 parking without payment of the parking charge, Barking Park Western Car Park,FREE parkin
Post by: H C Andersen on August 28, 2024, 02:31:08 pm


IMO, as the off-street order is only amended by these revisions and not revoked and remade then you need to see the whole order to see whether there was and still is an existing provision regarding how free periods are obtained.

Title: Re: Barking & Dagenham, code 73 parking without payment of the parking charge, Barking Park Western Car Park,FREE parkin
Post by: Edd177 on August 28, 2024, 11:07:25 am
That's great. thank you for the advice. I will keep you posted.
Title: Re: Barking & Dagenham, code 73 parking without payment of the parking charge, Barking Park Western Car Park,FREE parkin
Post by: Grant Urismo on August 28, 2024, 12:07:53 am
Yes! The council can't just put up signs and issue PCNs, then need to follow the process of formally issuing an Order and then putting up signs that accurately convey the restrictions in that Order. I've had a good look round and I'm convinced that they don't have an order that gives them authority to demand you use the app. What you did (park for less than 2 hours for free) doesn't contravene the Order, so they can't fine you for it.

If this was my PCN, I'd wait for the NtO and challenge on the grounds that the contravention did not occur, because they haven't made an Order that requires you to use an app in an off-street car park. My guess is that they will drop this at the part of the process where they need to produce an evidence pack, because a) they won't be able to produce an Order you've contravined and b) they are useless at doing evidence packs in general.
Title: Re: Barking & Dagenham, code 73 parking without payment of the parking charge, Barking Park Western Car Park,FREE parkin
Post by: Edd177 on August 27, 2024, 02:10:41 pm
Quote from: Grant Urismo on August 23, 2024, 05:04:36 pm
This needs more digging into than I can do right now, but I think you might be in the clear (although you'll likely have to go all the way to the adjudicators to win).

Knowing Barking & Dagenham's slapdash approach to following the proper processes and procedures, I had a quick look at "THE LONDON BOROUGH OF BARKING AND DAGENHAM (OFF-STREET PARKING PLACES) AMENDMENT No. * ORDER 202*", which I think is the most recent off-street parking order, and it looks to me as it they have cocked up the paperwork. If I'm reading this right, the order does include a requirement to book by phone for free parking in note (1), but only for schedule 2 on-street parking, not off street parking in car parks.

Can someone else take a look at https://www.lbbd.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2023-11/ID373%20%20PBP%20%20Tariff%20amendments%20NOI.pdf and check I'm reading it right?

thanks for the input and attachment provided. I can see the note on 'on-street parking' mentioning the requirement for "the start of the parking period must be registered on the telephone payment parking system"... And there is not something equivalent under 'off-street parking'.
Do you think this is enough justification for me to continue the appeal?
Title: Re: Barking & Dagenham, code 73 parking without payment of the parking charge, Barking Park Western Car Park,FREE parkin
Post by: Grant Urismo on August 23, 2024, 05:04:36 pm
This needs more digging into than I can do right now, but I think you might be in the clear (although you'll likely have to go all the way to the adjudicators to win).

Knowing Barking & Dagenham's slapdash approach to following the proper processes and procedures, I had a quick look at "THE LONDON BOROUGH OF BARKING AND DAGENHAM (OFF-STREET PARKING PLACES) AMENDMENT No. * ORDER 202*", which I think is the most recent off-street parking order, and it looks to me as it they have cocked up the paperwork. If I'm reading this right, the order does include a requirement to book by phone for free parking in note (1), but only for schedule 2 on-street parking, not off street parking in car parks.

Can someone else take a look at https://www.lbbd.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2023-11/ID373%20%20PBP%20%20Tariff%20amendments%20NOI.pdf and check I'm reading it right?
Title: Re: Barking & Dagenham, code 73 parking without payment of the parking charge, Barking Park Western Car Park,FREE parkin
Post by: Edd177 on August 23, 2024, 03:34:37 pm
Quote from: Incandescent on August 22, 2024, 07:54:28 pm
Frankly, I don't think you are on solid grounds at all, to take this all the way to London Tribunals, which is what is implied if you wait for the Notice to Owner.  This is because whilst you say " Unfortunately, I did not notice the small writing underneath that required 'all free sessions need to be registered with the app'", it is difficult to see how you might have missed it, as it is very clear what you have to do, and is directly below the 2 hour free limit statement.

I say London Tribunals because the council will refuse your reps to a Notice to Owner and may not re-offer the discount. Certainly if they don't, it is a no-brainer to go to London Tribunals, but with what argument ? So you'd be risking the full PCN penalty on a weak case. Not good.

Of course, somebody may come up with a "technical" appeal argument that could win for you, so wait a bit, but don't miss the deadline for payment of the discount if that is to be your decision.

many thanks for the reply. I missed it because it was quite a long sign, I did not read it properly, 3 kids tagging along... and never saw something similar before. Live in Essex, most of the times parking with P&D, not often using parking apps really ... and I relied on the local's advice that it was 2 free hours parking, what can go wrong! Had I seen it, why wouldn't I register? I only stayed 1 hour anyway. And I was hoping for some common sense when I appealed, that it is absurd to pay £40 for not paying £0, but what can you do, live and learn.
Title: Re: Barking & Dagenham, code 73 parking without payment of the parking charge, Barking Park Western Car Park,FREE parkin
Post by: Incandescent on August 22, 2024, 07:54:28 pm
Frankly, I don't think you are on solid grounds at all, to take this all the way to London Tribunals, which is what is implied if you wait for the Notice to Owner.  This is because whilst you say " Unfortunately, I did not notice the small writing underneath that required 'all free sessions need to be registered with the app'", it is difficult to see how you might have missed it, as it is very clear what you have to do, and is directly below the 2 hour free limit statement.

I say London Tribunals because the council will refuse your reps to a Notice to Owner and may not re-offer the discount. Certainly if they don't, it is a no-brainer to go to London Tribunals, but with what argument ? So you'd be risking the full PCN penalty on a weak case. Not good.

Of course, somebody may come up with a "technical" appeal argument that could win for you, so wait a bit, but don't miss the deadline for payment of the discount if that is to be your decision.
Title: Barking & Dagenham, code 73 parking without payment of the parking charge, Barking Park Western Car Park,FREE parking
Post by: Edd177 on August 22, 2024, 03:28:15 pm
I parked to Barking Park parking on Saturday and a local advised that the first 2 hours were free, which was confirmed on the Notice Board in the parking area. Unfortunately, I did not notice the small writing underneath that required 'all free sessions need to be registered with the app'.

https://imgur.com/a/STMD22M  (DISPLAYED NOTICE)

I thought to check out the park first and see if we want to stay and then come back and book for the 4 hours option, which was about £2.50, including the 2 free hours. After less than an hour, we decided to leave, but there was already a PCN on the windscreen from the Council (not private) for not registering with the app. The PCN was issued about 15mins before I found it. I did buy a ticket after that for £2.50 for 4 hours and left.

This is the link to the PCN: https://imgur.com/a/9Ropmkv

The next day I challenged it based on the fact that I purchased a ticket for a session that was free anyway (!). How can they say I parked without payment if the charge is 0! And I did buy a ticket in the end paying £2.50 even though I lefty after about an hour, within the 'free period'.

Barking Council replied rejecting my challenge, with the explanation: ' we do allow motorists a small window of time in which they can purchase a session after the vehicle was observed, your session was purchased outside of that window'. Which means, had I gone to the car and found the PCN 5 min earlier, then I would have purchased the ticket within this window of time. However it is absurd to pay £40 for simply not registering for a free session!

This is the rejection letter: https://imgur.com/a/E0Rb0wt

My options now are to either pay the reduced fine or wait for the 'Notice to Owner' to make a formal representation to the Council.

Are there grounds and a good chance to make a formal representation?