Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: storm1059 on August 22, 2024, 01:00:15 pm
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Kind and generous of the OP. Everyone learns something and everyone, except the council, gain something.
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Hello!
I was really surprised when i got the ticket as i made sure the dropped part was clear but didn't know they could ticket for it! Agreed - it was very close to the dropped part, i now leave a lot more clearance when parking.
Thank you all for your help, especially Mr Mustard for taking this on pro bono.
Rather this goes to charity rather than the greedy council!
(https://i.imgur.com/GqK8s6n.png)
Have a great new year everyone :)
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Sorry to say that Barnet do the same. The resident expects a PCN to be issued. Traffic wardens mollify them by issuing a PCN whether due or not. I have raised this in the past but the machine trundles on.
Different situation and awful parking but not due a PCN
https://lbbspending.blogspot.com/2024/03/barnet-council-trip-on-kerb.html
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Well done.
This interests me...and I am not at all surprised that a complaint was made and that a PCN was issued. However as I am unable to be satisfied that the vehicle was technically in contravention the Appeal must be allowed.
This council's policy and practice is outrageous i.e. issuing a PCN in the first place and then misstating the law in their rejections in order to mislead with the intention of unlawfully enriching themselves.
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Decision 2240514536
I heard this appeal by telephone, speaking to the Appellant’s representative Mr Dishman.
His case remains as set out in the grounds of appeal drafted by Mr Dishman, essentially that the vehicle was not parked adjacent to a point where the footway had been lowered to meet the level of the carriageway.
Although the CEO’s photographs are just sufficient to show the rear of the vehicle adjacent to the point where there is a sloping kerbstone indicating the start of the lowering of the footway, a contravention occurs only if a part of the vehicle is adjacent to the point where the lowering actually meets the level of the carriageway. I am not satisfied the photographs are sufficient to prove that this was so in the present case. The vehicle was clearly parked in an anti-social manner, hard up against an adjacent driveway, and I am not at all surprised that a complaint was made and that a PCN was issued. However as I am unable to be satisfied that the vehicle was technically in contravention the Appeal must be allowed.
I agreed with the adjudicator that the parking was inconsiderate but not illegal. A harsher adjudicator might have decided against as this was a marginal case. When I park I try to leave at least a metre clear; think of the sightline of the person backing out and avoid all of this hassle.
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As I help pro bono the Appellant has almost no costs.
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in cases like this where the authority blatantly miss quote the law after being directed to the correct law, can this not be vexatious? and eligible for a costs order?
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Ridiculous by Harrow. Why they persist with hopeless causes is hard to fathom.
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Just attended the hearing by phone as am abroad. The PCN was cancelled by the adjudicator. Written decision will be out in the morning.
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Hilarious, the law which applies in Hillingdon does not apply in Harrow.
Oh yes it does.
I would love to be the rep on this email.
If that suits you storm1059 please email an unredacted copy of the rejection to mrmustard@zoho.com
Ridiculous isn't it!
I've forwarded the email to you.
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One couldn't make it up.
For those who dislike clicking on links:
(https://i.imgur.com/YdiTsxt.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/2hbi6ip.png)
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Hilarious, the law which applies in Hillingdon does not apply in Harrow.
Oh yes it does.
I would love to be the rep on this email.
If that suits you storm1059 please email an unredacted copy of the rejection to mrmustard@zoho.com
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Hello everyone,
Just got an update this morning that they have rejected the formal appeal.
Here is the email:
https://imgur.com/a/MLPADRk
It included a form for tribual but it says you can also fill it out online.
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If your representations gets rejected (and council websites are sloppy about wording sometimes, they call it a challenge which it is in a way but should really call it a representation) I would be pleased to be your free representative at the tribunal.
I will also be adding that the website is unfair in that it says you should pay now to avoid further fees.
a - there have been no fees so far
b - if you follow the process there won't be any furtehr fees or even an increase to the penalty.
It is misleading and bullying amd there is an overarching duty on the council to be procedurally fair.
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The NtK only has guidance with the form, doesn't mention an online way to appeal to NtK and when I look up the reg on the council site, I see the same button I did for the informal challenge (and the same after they rejected it) so not sure if that is the same for NtK formal challenge.
https://imgur.com/a/UoFQSzt
EDIT: When I go into the challenge, it does mention something about Formal challenge so I assume it's the same form then! Will do it online.
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You should be doing it online - why by post?
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Before i sent it off, this is what I have written so far. I'm sure they should cancel it after this formal appeal!
https://imgur.com/a/uhm73i7
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I would just say:
I am making representations against the PCN on the grounds that the alleged contravention did not occur.
As I said in my informal challenge, the law regarding dropped footways concerns only being adjacent to the fully dropped part of the kerb. In your rejection of my challenge you are wrong to say that parking by the sloping part of the kerb is not allowed.
As no part of my car was adjacent to the fully dropped part the contravention did not occur and I invite you to check the regulation and cancel the PCN.
Maybe add in a key case and regulation refs. Also there are other councils that make this clear - eg Hillingdon:
https://www.hillingdon.gov.uk/article/4972/Enforcement-of-dropped-kerbs
(https://i.imgur.com/dUfHlQb.png)
Thank you for this! I will write up as they want it as a written letter and will include the Hillingdon example. Thanks!
Please provide the pcn ref and vehicle registration, there is no need to redact them, only hide your home addesss.
The Reg: MT69TZP
PCN: HR75564726
Kind Regards
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You can see this CEO shot shows being next to the sloping part and that's what they wrongly allege is a contravention.
I really doubt they'll reject again after their hopeless first rejection.
By the way, it was me who kept on at Hillingdon about their dropped footway page where they used to say the sloping part counts. They eventually changed it.
(https://i.imgur.com/azzaCSi.jpeg)
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Please provide the pcn ref and vehicle registration, there is no need to redact them, only hide your home addesss.
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I would just say:
I am making representations against the PCN on the grounds that the alleged contravention did not occur.
As I said in my informal challenge, the law regarding dropped footways concerns only being adjacent to the fully dropped part of the kerb. In your rejection of my challenge you are wrong to say that parking by the sloping part of the kerb is not allowed.
As no part of my car was adjacent to the fully dropped part the contravention did not occur and I invite you to check the regulation and cancel the PCN.
Maybe add in a key case and regulation refs. Also there are other councils that make this clear - eg Hillingdon:
https://www.hillingdon.gov.uk/article/4972/Enforcement-of-dropped-kerbs
(https://i.imgur.com/dUfHlQb.png)
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Their ears must be burning as i have just received the NTK today!
https://imgur.com/a/ZvzrwGn
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This is what council site says:
https://imgur.com/a/k4FHc2H
And my V5C is update to date with my address.
On their appeal, it did say not to contact us again until I get the NTK so...(https://emoji.tapatalk-cdn.com/emoji13.png)
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Is your V5C logbook up to date with correct address.
Is there anything showing status on council site.
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I'm yet to receive NTK, shall i chase or...?
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Your challenge got a response that is losing for them so all good.
As said you now wait for the notice to owner but do not repeat this challenge - we will draft a concise representation that responds to their rejection.
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Let's see your initial reps pl.
Here you go:
Q: Please describe why you want to challenge the penalty charge notice
A: Hello,
Hope you're well.
I have posted these pictures on a local facebook group as I feel some injustice with this ticket, they have recommended I appeal the ticket as it's outrageous.
There are no parking restrictions on the road, the driveway is clear for the house. The car in front was also parked further back and there is no other parking on the road.
The car was also parked within 30cm of the kerb. From the angle of the pictures, it looks like I am parked on the driveway but some of the other angles, you can see it was clear.
I'm not sure what else to say, I can go there and take pictures?
Kind Regards,
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Thanks guys - i will wait for NTO and send what @Incandescent has written.
@H C Andersen I wasn't able to download my appeal confirmation so I've emailed them requesting it (I didn't save what I wrote anywhere so hopefully they can provide a copy of my appeal).
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Let's see your initial reps pl.
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wait for the NTO then send the same challenge as formal representations
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This is an easy win - the council has misstated the law twice in the rejection. The sloping part doesn't count.
(https://i.ibb.co/m5JCKjC/Screenshot-2024-08-26-at-18-34-13.png)
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Well, it seems clear that the contravention did not occur, but only just; you were very close to the dropped section.
The sloping sections either side are not part of the dropped section so you should submit reps on that basis. Something like: -
Dear Sirs
Re PCN <number> served on <dd/mm/yyyy> at <location>
I deny liability for the above PCN on the grounds that the contravention did not occur.
The alleged contravention is for parking adjacent to a kerb lowered to meet the carriageway. It has been decided over the decades since this contravention came within council decriminalised enforcement powers that the sloping kerb stones either side of the dropped section are not part of it. The photos taken by your CEO show that this is the case, and the car is therefore not in contravention. I therefore request that the PCN be cancelled forthwith.
Yours faithfully.
Thank you @Incandescent! Unfortunately I had already appealed before posting on the grounds of Contravention did not occur and mentioned the flat area of the driveway was clear and there was no other parking space on the road.
As suspected, they have rejected the appeal. Attached is the redacted letter from the council - is this worth fighting or is it a risky one and better of paying the discounted fine?
https://imgur.com/a/BLlpT1R
Kind Regards!
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Well, it seems clear that the contravention did not occur, but only just; you were very close to the dropped section.
The sloping sections either side are not part of the dropped section so you should submit reps on that basis. Something like: -
Dear Sirs
Re PCN <number> served on <dd/mm/yyyy> at <location>
I deny liability for the above PCN on the grounds that the contravention did not occur.
The alleged contravention is for parking adjacent to a kerb lowered to meet the carriageway. It has been decided over the decades since this contravention came within council decriminalised enforcement powers that the sloping kerb stones either side of the dropped section are not part of it. The photos taken by your CEO show that this is the case, and the car is therefore not in contravention. I therefore request that the PCN be cancelled forthwith.
Yours faithfully.
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I didn't realise i got a ticket until the next day due to the direction of the car parked and visibility from the driver seat.
Here are all the photos from the council, however.
https://imgur.com/a/nYKHlz7
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@storm1059
did you take your own photos at the time showing the cars position??
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I have attached the PCN.
https://imgur.com/a/EoGQLeo
Please let me know if you need anything else
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Artistic photos by the CEO but the last on shows you parked adjacent to the sloping kerb and that does not count so you should make a challenge along those lines.
Post the PCN both sides
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Hello,
Contravention 27: Parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a footway, cycle track or verge lowered to meet the level of the carriageway
https://maps.app.goo.gl/9JAGrYEDhMEtpm2S9 (where the black car is)
I got a PCN yesterday from the council for parking on the road next to the dropped kerb of a driveway. The rear end of the car was hanging off the slopped kerb but the flat part of the driveway was clear.
They have taken various angles and of course, it looks deceptive. One of the angles does show the flat part of the driveway is clear.
I have already put in an informal appeal but I did not follow any templates but did select contravention did not happen.
I wasn't aware that the slopped part needs to be clear too?
Any thoughts will be helpful!
Thanks in advance.
https://ibb.co/SwrPGbZ
https://ibb.co/n0mz3TX
https://ibb.co/SJLYFW2