'I did not receive the notice to owner/PCN'
Thank you very much for this. I just checked and the charge is has gone to £70 for the discounted half price is no longer an option. So now I just wait till I receive the NTO before filling the firm you mentionedNo, keep checking the council website, the charge should go up to £105 and then £114, when it gets to £114 fill in form TE9 as I explained previously (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/01-parked-in-a-restricted-street-during-prescribed-hours-(reading-broad-street)/msg2475/#msg2475).
Do not just wait for documents to turn up in the post, if they go missing you could lose your right to appeal so you have to be proactive and keep checking at least once every 10 days.
Thank you very much for this. I just checked and the charge is has gone to £70 for the discounted half price is no longer an option. So now I just wait till I receive the NTO before filling the firm you mentionedNo, keep checking the council website, the charge should go up to £105 and then £114, when it gets to £114 fill in form TE9 as I explained previously (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/01-parked-in-a-restricted-street-during-prescribed-hours-(reading-broad-street)/msg2475/#msg2475).
they would be well aware of our trailer. It is just that the new warden didn't know the van belonged to the trailer so he issued a ticket.OK, maybe true, but you really do have to hit them with a hammer on these matters so there is no possible doubt whatsoever. The person looking at your reps is probably somewhere in north Scotland, because councils contract out this work. Whne/if you get to London Tribunals, (the adjudicators), you need to fire off every last round of your ammunition, as this is the final stage, you don't get another go.
Thank you. Life isn't unfair, but the system of enforcement definitely seems set up that way.Well that's why we're here. Given your account and the trading licence I don't think a video is necessary, a few photos will be more than enough. Draft representations for when the Notice to Owner is re-issued:Dear Reading Borough Council,
I challenge liability for PCN RG2669245A because the alleged contravention did not occur. I am a trader authorised to operate at this location, I attach a copy of my trading licence, together with bank statements and receipts as proof of trade.
I use the van to tow my trailer and also to carry goods that are then loaded into the trailer, at the material time I had been swapping gas bottles at the nose of the trailer, as soon as I saw the civil enforcement officer I asked why he had issued a ticket when I was a trader loading and preparing to tow the trailer away.
He apologised saying he had not realised the van belong to a trader and had not seen me before issuing the ticket. He went on to say he would make note and advised me to contest the ticket, so I trust his notes will reflect the same.
I attach photos showing my van and the trailer in question.
In light of the above I invite you to cancel the penalty charge.
Yours faithfully,
However, you must first follow the steps I explained on August 2nd (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/01-parked-in-a-restricted-street-during-prescribed-hours-(reading-broad-street)/msg2475/#msg2475) to get the Notice to Owner re-issued.
The 21 days since their letter of 14 July have already expired so I'd expect the case to progress at some point next week, so I'd suggest checking the amount due on the council website on Friday or Saturday.
Thank you. Life isn't unfair, but the system of enforcement definitely seems set up that way.Well that's why we're here. Given your account and the trading licence I don't think a video is necessary, a few photos will be more than enough. Draft representations for when the Notice to Owner is re-issued:
Now we're getting somewhere ! Strong collateral is very important in refuting the council case.Yes there is. But to be honest, as I mentioned earlier, they would be well aware of our trailer. It is just that the new warden didn't know the van belonged to the trailer so he issued a ticket. Now it feels like parking services are reluctant to back down because that is how they operate. I could provide them with a picture of my trailer attached to my van, or a video or me doing all of the loading or unloading activities as would have been done that day. I'm sure they could also request CCTV from the councils department but then that would probably expose the fact that they let all of the other 4 traders off that day...or worse, let them drag their heels EVERY day!Right, that's not how parking enforcement works.
Everything that "they would be well aware of" is irrelevant, the only thing that matters is what you put in the representations. The consideration of representations may well be outsourced to somebody sitting in an office block 500 miles away, you must assume the person reading the representations knows nothing at all.
So, please stop making a fuss about how unfair life is, and start putting your evidence together. A video showing you loading and unloading on a different day would be a good start, together with all the other bits of evidence I suggested.
Please post a list on here of what you can provide (bank statements and receipts from suppliers are particularly relevant to show you're running a business), and I will draft a representation for you.
Thank you. Life isn't unfair, but the system of enforcement definitely seems set up that way.
I can provide them with copies of receipts and bank statements. Better than that, I can provide them with a copy of my trading license that affirms the days and times I operate at that given location. I could take a video of the van in relation to the catering trailer as I typically park it when moving goods to and from the van.
Yes there is. But to be honest, as I mentioned earlier, they would be well aware of our trailer. It is just that the new warden didn't know the van belonged to the trailer so he issued a ticket. Now it feels like parking services are reluctant to back down because that is how they operate. I could provide them with a picture of my trailer attached to my van, or a video or me doing all of the loading or unloading activities as would have been done that day. I'm sure they could also request CCTV from the councils department but then that would probably expose the fact that they let all of the other 4 traders off that day...or worse, let them drag their heels EVERY day!Right, that's not how parking enforcement works.
Everything that "they would be well aware of" is irrelevant, the only thing that matters is what you put in the representations. The consideration of representations may well be outsourced to somebody sitting in an office block 500 miles away, you must assume the person reading the representations knows nothing at all.
So, please stop making a fuss about how unfair life is, and start putting your evidence together. A video showing you loading and unloading on a different day would be a good start, together with all the other bits of evidence I suggested.
Please post a list on here of what you can provide (bank statements and receipts from suppliers are particularly relevant to show you're running a business), and I will draft a representation for you.
Yes there is. But to be honest, as I mentioned earlier, they would be well aware of our trailer. It is just that the new warden didn't know the van belonged to the trailer so he issued a ticket. Now it feels like parking services are reluctant to back down because that is how they operate. I could provide them with a picture of my trailer attached to my van, or a video or me doing all of the loading or unloading activities as would have been done that day. I'm sure they could also request CCTV from the councils department but then that would probably expose the fact that they let all of the other 4 traders off that day...or worse, let them drag their heels EVERY day!Right, that's not how parking enforcement works.
We tow the trailer to and from the location at the start of every daySo it's not just you. Who is "we"?
Me and/or my staff
Can you show us a photo of this trailer?
Really just a box catering trailer. Parking services will be well aware of it. My trailer and those of others will be seen by their staff as well as CCTV 5 days per week.
What goods are exchanged between the van and the trailer?
Stock, food prepped off-site, utensils washed off-site, gas, water gallons, quite a few items.
Where do you get those goods from to begin with?
Wholesalers as and when our stock in the store run low (in other words, they are delivered to us elsewhere and usually not on the day we need them at the trailer.)
If goods are sold from the trailer, presumably there's a cash register, bank statements for card transactions etc?
You posted:
I had been swapping gas bottles at the nose of the trailer when the pcn was attached, and as soon as I saw parking attendant I asked why he had issued a ticket when I was a trader loading and preparing to tow the trailer away.
He apologised saying he had not realised the van belong to a trader and had not seen me before issuing the ticket. He went on to say he would make note and advised me to contest the ticket.
But they rejected your challenge:
Also, 'One month later I received a letter repeating that they had written to me following my challenge'
Post your initial reps and their reply pl. if you don't have their reply to hand then contact them and get a copy.
Let's target any formal reps against their argument and not reinvent the wheel.
Definitely not. I'm the new kid on the block. The old boys have the parking brigade in their pockets and won't want to rock the boat
We tow the trailer to and from the location at the start of every daySo it's not just you. Who is "we"?
You posted:
I had been swapping gas bottles at the nose of the trailer when the pcn was attached, and as soon as I saw parking attendant I asked why he had issued a ticket when I was a trader loading and preparing to tow the trailer away.
He apologised saying he had not realised the van belong to a trader and had not seen me before issuing the ticket. He went on to say he would make note and advised me to contest the ticket.
But they rejected your challenge:
Also, 'One month later I received a letter repeating that they had written to me following my challenge'
Post your initial reps and their reply pl. if you don't have their reply to hand then contact them and get a copy.
Let's target any formal reps against their argument and not reinvent the wheel.
We tow the trailer to and from the location at the start of every day
There are set-up tasks and closing tasks including the exchange of goods between the trailer and van before the van is removed
Not sure how I would prove any of those activities as it isn't like I would have any receipts or delivery notes :/
Some further info that may or may not be useful here. There are several traders who operate on the street with trailers, for the purposes of loading/unloading and towing. We usually bring the trailers on before 10am and remove them after 5pm. Never once have I see any parking attendant issue a PCN to the other traders when there vans are parked beside their trailers during or in preparation for towing their trailers. The attendants just walk by. I think what happened here was that the attendant was new and may not have been aware of the street and how traders load/unload and tow.
Would you know how one would prove loading in this sort of scenario or what constitutes proof?If it's your own business you'll have paperwork: receipts, invoies, delivery notes or similar. Maybe orders from clients, emails, text, whatsapp messages?
If you're working for an employer, they would have all of that.
If you regularly deliver to the same client, they might be willing to give you a witness statement.
If you were delivering to a nearby shop, they might have you on CCTV carrying the goods into the shop.
Would you know how one would prove loading in this sort of scenario or what constitutes proof?If it's your own business you'll have paperwork: receipts, invoies, delivery notes or similar. Maybe orders from clients, emails, text, whatsapp messages?
Well the debt is "logged" but this is easily undone by filing form TE9 with the Traffic Enforcement Centre, and these debts don't appear on your credit score so don't worry about that either.
As long as you can supply evidence that you were loading I'd expect them to cancel at the Notice to Owner stage, so I'd definitely go for a re-set.
For now just wait, once the 14 day charge certificate period has expired, check the amount due at least once a week on https://parking.reading.gov.uk/ (https://parking.reading.gov.uk/). As soon as it goes up to £114 you can download form TE9 (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1094491/Parking_TE9.pdf) and fill it in (no need to print, just type it out on your computer and save), remember you are not the "applicant", the "applicant" is the council.
Once that's done you can email it to tec@justice.gov.uk with the PCN number in the subject line and both the Order for Recovery and the Charge Certificate will be revoked.
The council will then re-issue the Notice to Owner, again don't rely on the post just keep checking the council website. You'll know the PCN is back at the Notice to Owner stage when the outstanding charge changes to £70. At that point we will help you draft a formal representation.
Well, it depends on your attitude to risk.
Normally we would advise you to wait for the final statutory document in the process called the Order for Recovery. This means the council have registered the debt at the Traffic Enforcement Centre at Northampton. The OfR adds £9 onto the CC amount, being the fee to register the debt. At this stage you can submit a Witness Statement that you submitted reps but did not receive a rejection of those reps. The matter reverts, (AIUI), to the Notice to Owner stage. Unfortunately, the discount option is lost, so if you don't win an adjudication, you'd have to pay the full amount.
So you have a decision to make. You haven't told us the details of your reps against the original PCN and the circumstances that caused it to be served.