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Live cases legal advice => Private parking tickets => Topic started by: Rightbak on August 20, 2024, 12:42:34 pm

Title: Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
Post by: b789 on December 15, 2024, 05:29:47 pm
Obviously they redacted the contract where it stated that the contract is automatically renewed but, according to the moronic POPLA assessor, they let them see it. I would dare them to try that at court and see how quickly they are slapped down.

The assessor did not mention the PoFA failure. They simply accepted that the NtK was PoFA compliant..

Just goes to show how useless they really are. Never mind. Onwards and upwards.
Title: Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
Post by: John Glacier on December 15, 2024, 04:28:27 pm
Typical POPLA nonsense. Wait for the letter before claim.
Title: Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
Post by: Rightbak on December 15, 2024, 04:19:33 pm
Hi

Thanks for your reply. I will await the LoC and advise further.

In the meantime, here is the POPLA response. I have tried to break it up as best as possible to make it readable...

When assessing an appeal POPLA considers if the parking operator has issued the parking charge notice correctly and if the driver has complied with the terms and conditions for the use of the car park. The Protection of Freedoms Act (PoFA) 2012 is a law that allows parking operators to transfer the liability to the registered keeper in the event that the driver or hirer is not identified. Parking operators have to follow certain rules including warning the registered keeper that they will be liable if the parking operator is not provided with the name and address of the driver. In this case, the PCN in question has the necessary information and the parking operator has therefore successfully transferred the liability onto the registered keeper. The parking operator has transferred liability to the registered keeper so they are not holding the driver liable. The PCN also invites the registered keeper to name the driver to transfer liability and if no driver details are provided, they will hold the registered keeper liable for the charge. It also advised that if no driver is identified they have the right to recover any unpaid part of the parking charge from the keeper. I am satisfied that it invites the keeper to pay the charge if no driver is identified.

The British Parking Association (BPA) has a Code of Practice which set the standards its parking operators need to comply with. Section 19.3 of the Code says parking operators need to have signs that clearly set out the terms. In this case the parking operator’s evidence shows the signs state “…2 hour max stay between 10am – 11pm…NO PARKING OUTSIDE OF THESE TIMES…Failure to comply with the terms & conditions will result in a Parking Charge of:£100…”. The signs clearly inform motorists of the terms of parking at the site, and offers a contract to motorists using the site, if they overstay the maximum stay time or park at the site when no parking is allowed the motorists is accepting a PCN will be issued to them. I am satisfied that the terms and conditions are fair under The Consumer Right Acts 2015 as the terms are made clear to motorists and it is the motorist’s choice if they choose to park there and accept the terms that are on offer.

The driver of the vehicle does not need to have read the terms and conditions of the contract to accept it. There is only the requirement that the driver is afforded the opportunity to read and understand the terms and conditions of the contract before accepting it. It is the driver’s responsibility to seek out the terms and conditions, and ensure they understand them, before agreeing to the contract and parking.

Section 19.2 of the Code says parking operators need to have entrance signs that make it clear a motorist is entering onto private land. In this case the parking operator’s evidence shows there is an entrance sign to inform motorists they are entering private land and terms and conditions apply. The site map provided by the parking operator shows there are 6 signs installed at the site informing motorists of the terms and conditions of using the site. There is sufficient signage installed at the site based on the size off it.

While I appreciate there are no images of the appellants vehicle parked near a sign, there is no requirement for the parking operator to provide these as their evidence shows signs are installed throughout the site.

Section 19.4 of the Code of Practice states that if parking operators intend to use the keeper liability provisions in Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act (PoFA) 2012, the signs must give adequate notice of the charge. The signs have the PCN amount in large white text on a black background, I am satisfied that the PCN amount is adequately brought to motorists’ attention.

Section 7.1 of the BPA Code of Practice outlines that parking operators must have written authorisation from the landowner or their agent, to manage the land in question. This can come in the form of a witness statement under Section 23.16B of the BPA Code of Practice or a full contract. In this case the parking operator has provided as signed contract from March 2021 which is valid for 36 months. The contract does say it renews automatically unless either party terminates the contract. I am satisfied the parking operator has a valid landowner contract.

The parking operator uses Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) cameras at the site to record how long each vehicle stays on the site for and the time they entered. As the parking operator has shown that the appellants vehicle entered the site at 09:12, 48 minutes before parking is allowed at the site, and left at 10:08 the PCN has been issued by the parking operator the vehicle was parked at the site for 38 minutes when no parking was allowed. Whilst I note the appellant has raised comments to POPLA after reviewing the operator’s case file, the comments expand on the initial grounds raised and I have addressed those within my report. Therefore, the comments do not require any further consideration.

After considering the evidence from both parties, the appellants vehicle was parked at the site when no parking was allowed without being authorised to do so and therefore the driver did not comply with the terms and conditions of the site. As such, I am satisfied the parking charge has been issued correctly and I must refuse the appeal.
Title: Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
Post by: b789 on December 15, 2024, 01:57:29 pm
It is always worth seeing the POPLA assessors reasoning for rejecting an appeal. If you could break up the wall of text with a few paragraph breaks, that would help make it more palatable to read.

You can no ignore the POPLA decision. It has no bearing on anything going forwards.

What you are looking out for is a Letter of Claim (LoC). PE will either issue it themselves or they will use a bulk litigator to do so on their behalf. Usually it will be DCB Legal. Don't confuse them with their debt collection arm, DCBL, who can be safely ignored.

When you receive the LoC, show it to us and we will advise further. Whilst an LoC does not have to be responded to, it is always worthwhile doing so, especially as it will give them a heads up that they are not dealing with low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree.

What will follow the LoC will be an N1SDT Claim Form from the CNBC. This cannot be ignored and again, we would need to see all of the form with only your personal details, the claim numbering the MCOL password redacted.
Title: Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
Post by: Rightbak on December 15, 2024, 12:48:24 pm
Just a quick update on this.

The POPLA appeal was unsuccessful. I can add their response here if its important but otherwise I won't (note POPLA did say that the contract automatically renews, I could not find this in the contract myself)

I understand that any debt collection letters can be ignored.

What should I be looking out for that cannot be ignored?

Thanks!
Title: Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
Post by: b789 on October 07, 2024, 10:35:53 am
If POPLA don't uphold the appeal, it isn't the end of the matter. The POPLA decision has no bearing whatsoever on going forward to fight this.
Title: Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
Post by: DWMB2 on October 07, 2024, 10:07:28 am
I am unsure if this difference between the contract and signage renders the PCN unenforceable however.
Whether or not it was 10am or 11am, the vehicle entered shortly after 9am, so would have breached either version of the T&Cs. If that issue were in dispute, you'd have a strong argument to be able to rely on the terms communicated via the signage on the site. I think a far bigger issue in this case is they've not demonstrated that they hold a valid contract.
Title: Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
Post by: Rightbak on October 07, 2024, 09:52:41 am
Dear b789 and DWMB2

Thank you so much once again for your continued help and support on this case. I am so grateful for your contributions.

I have now submitted the response to the operator summary and await the outcome.

As an aside, I did also just note that the contract states that the parking time limit is a 2 hour max stay between 11am and 11pm. This differs from all the signage at the site that state the 2 hour max stay is between 10am and 11pm. I am unsure if this difference between the contract and signage renders the PCN unenforceable however.

Thanks once again 
Title: Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
Post by: b789 on October 07, 2024, 02:14:16 am
As the response is limited to 20,000 characters or less, here is the response, with the points in order of priority:

Quote
1. Invalid and unclear landholder authority:

In my appeal, I put ParkingEye to strict proof of a valid contract with the landowner, which they have failed to provide. The landowner authority document ParkingEye submitted is dated 23 March 2021, with an 'Initial Term' of 36 months starting from the 'Service Commencement Date.' However, the contract does not specify this commencement date. In the absence of any evidence to the contrary, it is reasonable to assume the term began on the date the contract was signed, meaning it would have expired by 22 March 2024. Since the parking event occurred after this date, ParkingEye has not demonstrated that a valid contract was in place at the time of the incident.

Additionally, the copy of the contract provided by ParkingEye is of such poor quality that several terms are unreadable. This lack of clarity raises serious concerns about the enforceability of the document. Furthermore, whole sections of the contract, including the Termination clause, have been redacted. These redacted sections may contain crucial information relevant to this case, such as specific terms about the contract’s validity or conditions for its termination. ParkingEye has failed to address these issues in their operator response, leaving significant doubts about their authority to issue PCNs at the time of the alleged breach.

2. Prohibitive signage – No contract formed:

In my original appeal, I argued that the signage at the car park was prohibitive, particularly before 10:00 am, meaning no offer to park was available during the time the vehicle was parked. Consequently, no contract could have been formed under basic principles of contract law, which require a clear offer and acceptance. Additionally, the signage does not meet the fairness and transparency requirements under the Consumer Rights Act 2015. ParkingEye has failed to rebut this critical point in their response, ignoring the argument that prohibitive signage precludes the formation of a contract. They have also not addressed the CRA violations concerning the fairness and transparency of their terms.

3. Non-compliance with PoFA (Paragraph 9(2)(e)(i)):

My appeal specifically highlighted that the Notice to Keeper (NtK) issued by ParkingEye does not comply with Paragraph 9(2)(e)(i) of the Protection of Freedoms Act (PoFA) 2012, as it fails to "invite the keeper" to either pay the parking charge or provide the driver's details. This omission is a fundamental breach of PoFA. Despite this, ParkingEye has not provided any evidence or argument in their operator response to rebut or rectify this critical point. As such, they cannot hold the registered keeper liable for the parking charge.

4. No proof the keeper is the driver:

In my appeal, I stressed that ParkingEye had not shown that the individual being pursued is the driver. Since they failed to comply with the conditions of PoFA to hold the keeper liable, they are required to prove that the person they are pursuing was the driver at the time of the event. In their operator response, ParkingEye has completely failed to rebut this point. They have not provided any evidence identifying the driver, nor have they shown full compliance with PoFA, meaning they cannot pursue the keeper in place of the driver.

5. Insufficient signage and no evidence of vehicle location:

In my appeal, I raised concerns about the lack of evidence showing where the vehicle was parked in relation to the signage. ParkingEye's case summary does not provide details about the exact location of the vehicle in relation to the signage, making it unclear if the driver had any reasonable opportunity to see or read the terms. In their operator evidence, ParkingEye has failed to rebut this point, offering no further proof to demonstrate that the signage was clear, visible, or properly located in relation to where the vehicle was parked.

Conclusion:

ParkingEye has failed to rebut the main points raised in my initial appeal. They have not demonstrated compliance with PoFA, provided sufficient evidence of the vehicle’s location relative to signage, or proven that they have valid landholder authority. For these reasons, I respectfully request that POPLA uphold my appeal and cancel the parking charge.
Title: Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
Post by: Rightbak on October 06, 2024, 10:48:09 pm
A couple of key points to expand on about the contract in your reply:

  • The contract is dated 23 March 2021. The 'Initial Term' is for 36 months, beginning on the 'Service Commencement Date' - the contract doesn't state when this is. Assuming it is 36 months from the date the contract is signed (a reasonable assumption in lieu of any evidence to the contrary), the contract they have provided expired on 22 March 2024, before the parking event in question. They have therefore not demonstrated that they had a valid contract in force on the date the parking event took place
  • They have provided a poor quality copy of the document - so poor in fact that it is impossible to read some of the terms
  • Whole sections are redacted - some of the redacted sections, including the Termination clause, for example, might contain details relevant to the case.

I'd make the biggest deal about the first of these points personally.

Thank you very much for highlighting the issues with the contract!



I have drafted a response as follows:

Re: Parking Charge Notice Issued by Parking Eye
Appellant: [name]

I am writing in response to Parking Eye case summary submitted to POPLA regarding the above parking charge notice (PCN). The operator has failed to address all the issues raised in my appeal. I request that POPLA consider the following points in support of my appeal and dismiss the PCN.

1. The Notice to Keeper (NtK) fails to comply with Paragraph 9(2)(e)(i) of PoFA 2012.

In my appeal, I emphasised that the Notice to Keeper (NtK) issued by ParkingEye does not comply with the stringent requirements outlined in Schedule 4, Paragraph 9(2)(e)(i) of the Protection of Freedoms Act (PoFA) 2012. This provision requires that the NtK "invite the keeper" to either pay the unpaid parking charge or provide the driver's details. Specifically, the notice must contain the word "invite" or a similar expression that clearly indicates the keeper is being requested or encouraged to take action.

As previously noted, the NtK omits the word "invite" or any appropriate synonym, representing a clear breach of the statutory requirements under PoFA. Given ParkingEye's failure to comply with Paragraph 9(2)(e)(i) and their inability to provide contrary evidence in their case summary, the registered keeper cannot be held liable for the parking charge.


2. The signage was insufficient and unclear, and there is no evidence of the vehicle's location in relation to the signs.

The case summary provided by ParkingEye lacks evidence identifying the precise location where the vehicle was parked. Consequently, it is unclear how the vehicle's position relates to any signage between the parking space and the KFC entrance. Specifically, it remains uncertain whether the vehicle passed by Sign Type 1, Sign Type 2, both, or neither. As a result, the parking charge was not communicated in a clear and transparent manner, as required by law.


3. The operator has not shown that the individual being pursued is the driver.

Since ParkingEye has not fully complied with the strict conditions laid out in PoFA to hold the keeper liable, ParkingEye are put to strict proof that the person they are pursuing is the driver. Unless ParkingEye can provide unequivocal evidence that I was the driver at the time, or demonstrate full compliance with PoFA (which they have not), they cannot lawfully hold me liable for this charge.


4. No contract could be formed due to prohibitive signage.

The argument presented in my appeal is that no valid contract could be formed for parking because the signage at the car park was prohibitive rather than an offer of terms. The sign specifies a 2-hour maximum stay between 10:00 am and 11:00 pm, and since the vehicle was parked before 10:00 am, no offer to park was available. For a contract to exist, there must be a clear offer and acceptance, which is not possible when parking is prohibited before 10:00 am.

Furthermore, the Consumer Rights Act 2015 (CRA) supports this position. Under Section 62, contract terms must be fair, and prohibitive signage that penalizes parking outside allowed hours creates an unfair imbalance. Section 68 of the CRA also requires transparency, which the signage fails to meet, as it does not clearly communicate parking restrictions in a way a reasonable consumer would understand.

In summary, ParkingEye cannot enforce a parking charge because:
    1. No contract was formed before 10:00 am.
    2. The signage was prohibitive, not offering parking terms before 10:00 am.
    3. The terms are unfair and lack transparency under the Consumer Rights Act 2015.


5. No evidence of landholder authority.

I would like to draw attention to several critical aspects of the contract that warrant further elaboration:

Contract Duration and Expiration: The contract in question is dated 23 March 2021, and it specifies an 'Initial Term' of 36 months, commencing on the 'Service Commencement Date.' However, the contract does not indicate what this commencement date is. For the sake of argument, if we assume that the service commencement date is the same as the signing date, then the contract would logically be considered valid until 22 March 2024. Given that the parking event occurred after this expiration date, ParkingEye has failed to demonstrate that a valid contract was in effect at the time of the incident.

Quality of the Document Provided: The copy of the contract submitted is of notably poor quality, rendering many of the terms unreadable. This lack of clarity raises significant concerns about the enforceability of the contract, as key provisions may be obscured, hindering a complete understanding of the agreement's terms and conditions.

Redacted Sections: Additionally, there are extensive redactions throughout the document, including critical sections such as the Termination clause. The information that has been withheld could contain essential details relevant to this case, potentially impacting the determination of liability. Without access to this information, it is challenging to assess the implications of the contract fully.

In light of these points, it is evident that ParkingEye has not adequately substantiated their claim regarding the validity of the contract at the time of the parking event.



Conclusion:

For the reasons outlined above and in my initial appeal, the PCN has been issued incorrectly and I request that POPLA uphold my appeal and cancel the parking charge.
Title: Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
Post by: DWMB2 on October 06, 2024, 10:11:43 pm
A couple of key points to expand on about the contract in your reply:


I'd make the biggest deal about the first of these points personally.
Title: Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
Post by: Rightbak on October 06, 2024, 09:45:28 pm
Here is the contract as PNG images

https://imgur.com/a/MpRHHa9

And here uploaded to google drive

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1PUYVPqkV6v4KJPoCH3rWM_NIHxze9PSr/edit?usp=drive_link&ouid=107001667705145103993&rtpof=true&sd=true
Title: Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
Post by: DWMB2 on October 06, 2024, 09:20:18 pm
I can upload the original word doc if there is a way to do that?
Try PNG rather than JPG, that sometimes yields better quality with images that contain text. Otherwise, if you could upload those pages of the Word doc that would be useful - you'd need to use DropBox or Google Drive or similar.

There are a couple of points I'd like to check on the contract.
Title: Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
Post by: Rightbak on October 06, 2024, 09:16:57 pm
As a lay person I would say PE still failed to provide sufficient evidence in all five points raised

1. The Notice to Keeper (NtK) still fails to comply with Paragraph 9(2)(e)(i) of PoFA 2012.
2. PE did not provide evidence of the vehicles exact parking location, therefore cannot say with certainty the signage was sufficient and clear.
3. The operator has still not shown that the individual being pursued is the driver.
4. No contract could be formed due to prohibitive signage.
5. The evidence of landowner authority was redacted and illegible and therefore cannot be used.

I will draft some better words and post them here for review. Thank you

Title: Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
Post by: Rightbak on October 06, 2024, 09:00:48 pm
Do you have any better quality images of the contract they've provided? The small print is illegible in your uploads.

The original word document sent to me containing the contract was very poor quality but was marginally better quality than after I converted it to jpg and uploaded to imgur.
I can upload the original word doc if there is a way to do that?
Title: Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
Post by: DWMB2 on October 06, 2024, 08:32:33 pm
Do you have any better quality images of the contract they've provided? The small print is illegible in your uploads.
Title: Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
Post by: b789 on October 06, 2024, 08:21:49 pm
So check the contract with the landowner to see if it is actually valid on the date. Check the terms that state they are permitted to issue PCNs in their own name.

You have the contracting party's name on the contract. Try and get in touch with them and get them to tell PE to cancel the PCN.

Has PE rebutted each and every point you raised? You need to go through each point you raised and point out to the assessor which points have not been rebutted.

When you have done that, show us what you intend to submit as your response. You only need a single point not to be rebutted and you win.
Title: Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
Post by: Rightbak on October 06, 2024, 08:07:21 pm
Hello all

PE have now submitted their operator case summary, which I have attached (two links below)

I have the opportunity to provide comments on the summary; however, due to my absence away on holiday over the past week, I now only have until 7th October to submit any feedback.

I would appreciate any advice on whether further comments are necessary.

Thank you in advance.

https://imgur.com/a/2Y4YnNm

https://imgur.com/a/ykNPcVF

Title: Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
Post by: b789 on September 26, 2024, 01:16:23 pm
If the POPLA appeal is unsuccessful, it has absolutely no bearing on the next steps, waiting to see if they decide to issue a claim in the county court.

Please keep us updated on the outcome.
Title: Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
Post by: Rightbak on September 26, 2024, 01:13:43 pm
Thank you so much for taking the time to draft the reply above. I have now submitted my appeal to POPLA and will wait for their reply.

I would like to sincerely thank everyone who has taken the time to view and respond to this post so far, especially b789 and DWMB2. Your help and support are truly appreciated, and I am so grateful for your contributions.
Title: Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
Post by: b789 on September 26, 2024, 11:02:17 am
The best layout for a POPLA appeal is to list all the points and then expand on each point separately. Eg.

Quote
POPLA Appeal – PCN Reference [insert reference number]
Appellant: Registered Keeper
Date: [insert date]


I am appealing this Parking Charge Notice (PCN) as the Keeper on the following grounds:

1. The Notice to Keeper (NtK) failed to comply with Paragraph 9(2)(e)(i) of PoFA 2012.
2. The signage was insufficient and unclear, and there is no evidence of the vehicle's location in relation to the signs.
3. The operator has not shown that the individual being pursued is the driver.
4. No contract could be formed due to prohibitive signag.
5. No evidence of landholder authority.

1. The Notice to Keeper (NtK) failed to comply with Paragraph 9(2)(e)(i) of PoFA 2012.

The NtK issued by ParkingEye does not comply with the strict requirements of Schedule 4, Paragraph 9(2)(e)(i) of the Protection of Freedoms Act (PoFA) 2012. This section of PoFA requires the NtK to "invite the keeper" to pay the unpaid parking charge or to provide the details of the driver. Specifically, the notice must contain either the word "invite" or a suitable synonym that makes it clear the keeper is being asked or encouraged to pay the charge.

However, in this instance, the NtK fails to use the word "invite" or any synonym of that term. Instead, the wording may suggest that the keeper is being "informed" or "notified" of the charge. This is a crucial distinction, as the Act expressly mandates the use of language that conveys an invitation for the keeper to pay. Merely notifying the keeper is insufficient, as it does not fulfil the legal obligation imposed by Paragraph 9(2)(e)(i).

The lack of an "invitation" in the NtK is a clear breach of the statutory requirements under PoFA. It is not enough for ParkingEye to claim partial or substantial compliance with PoFA, as full compliance with each and every requirement of Schedule 4 is mandatory for the transfer of liability from the driver to the keeper. The courts have consistently held that if any single requirement is not met, keeper liability cannot apply.

Given that ParkingEye has failed to comply with Paragraph 9(2)(e)(i), the registered keeper cannot be held liable for this charge.

2. The signage was insufficient and unclear, and there is no evidence of the vehicle's location in relation to the signs.

Under the Protection of Freedoms Act (PoFA) 2012, Schedule 4, Paragraph 2(2), "adequate notice" of the parking charge must be given to drivers. In this case, no adequate notice was provided, as there were no visible signs displaying the parking terms and conditions at the entrance to the car park, at the location where the vehicle was parked, or along the route to the entrance of the KFC. The lack of signage at key locations means that the driver was not informed of the parking terms, and therefore could not have agreed to them. Without this essential information, no contract could be formed.

PoFA, Paragraph 2(3) further clarifies that "adequate notice" means the signage must clearly specify the parking charge and be positioned in such a way that the charge is brought to the attention of drivers. In this case, ParkingEye did not display sufficient signage to meet this requirement. The signage, if present, was not clearly visible to the driver at any point during their time in the car park, including the journey from the parking space to the KFC entrance. As a result, the parking charge was not communicated in a clear and transparent manner, as required by law.

Additionally, PoFA, Paragraph 9(2)(c) requires that the Notice to Keeper describes how the parking charge arose and how the requirement to pay was brought to the attention of the driver. Given that ParkingEye has failed to provide adequate notice as defined in Paragraphs 2(2) and 2(3), the Notice to Keeper does not comply with this requirement. The NtK fails to explain how the driver could have been made aware of the parking terms when there was a lack of clear signage. Partial or even substantial compliance with PoFA is not sufficient; full compliance with all PoFA requirements is mandatory in order to establish keeper liability.

For these reasons, I expect ParkingEye to provide a detailed layout of the car park showing the location of all signage, including proof of the exact location where the vehicle was parked and how this relates to any signage. They must also provide evidence that the signage used to display the parking terms and conditions is fully compliant with the British Parking Association (BPA) Code of Practice. ParkingEye will be put to strict proof of the vehicle’s exact parking location and the relationship of that location to any signs passed between the parking space and the KFC entrance.

3. The operator has not shown that the individual being pursued is the driver.

ParkingEye has failed to provide any evidence that the person they are pursuing is the driver of the vehicle on the date of the alleged contravention. As the registered keeper, I am under no obligation to identify the driver, and I decline to do so. Since the operator has not established the identity of the driver, they are relying on the provisions of the Protection of Freedoms Act (PoFA) 2012 to transfer liability from the driver to the registered keeper.

However, as outlined in Points 1 and 2 of this appeal, the Notice to Keeper (NtK) issued by ParkingEye does not comply with the mandatory requirements of Paragraphs 9(2)(e)(i), 2(2), 2(3) and 9(2)(c) of PoFA. Specifically, it fails to "invite the keeper" to pay the unpaid parking charge and has failed to provide "adequate notice" as required by the Act. Without full compliance with all of the requirements of Schedule 4 of PoFA, ParkingEye cannot invoke keeper liability.

Since ParkingEye has not fully complied with the strict conditions laid out in PoFA to hold the keeper liable, ParkingEye are put to strict proof that the person they are pursuing is the driver. Unless ParkingEye can provide unequivocal evidence that I was the driver at the time, or demonstrate full compliance with PoFA (which they have not), they cannot lawfully hold me liable for this charge.

4. No contract could be formed due to prohibitive signage.

The signage at the car park does not constitute an offer of terms for parking but is instead prohibitive in nature. The sign specifically states that there is a 2 hour maximum stay between 10:00 am and 11:00 pm. The vehicle was parked between 09:12 am and 10:08 am, which falls outside the allowed hours stated on the sign. Consequently, the sign is communicating a prohibition on parking before 10:00 am, meaning that no offer of parking is made before that time.

Under contract law, for a binding contract to be formed, there must be a clear offer and acceptance. A prohibitive sign that forbids parking outside certain hours does not offer any terms for the driver to accept, as it simply informs the driver that parking is not allowed. Since no contract could be formed before 10:00 am, no breach of contract can occur, and no parking charge can be enforced.

This position is further supported by the Consumer Rights Act 2015 (CRA). Section 62 of the CRA requires that contract terms and notices must be fair. The CRA defines unfair terms as those that create a significant imbalance in the parties’ rights and obligations, to the detriment of the consumer. A prohibitive sign, which forbids parking outside certain hours while still imposing a penalty, creates such an imbalance. The driver is effectively being penalised for parking at a time when no contract was offered, which is not only unfair but also unenforceable under the CRA.

Additionally, under Section 68 of the CRA, terms must be transparent. The parking terms were not sufficiently clear or transparent in this case, as the signage failed to properly communicate that the car park could not be used before 10:00 am in a way that a reasonable consumer would understand. The signage gives the impression of restricted access but provides no legitimate offer of parking before 10:00 am. Given that a key term of the contract (the availability of parking) was not clearly communicated, this term fails the transparency test required by the CRA.

As such, ParkingEye cannot enforce any parking charge in this instance because:

(i) No contract was formed prior to 10:00 am.
(ii) The signage is prohibitive and does not offer any terms of parking before 10:00 am.
(iii) The signage and any terms invoked are unfair and lack transparency under the Consumer Rights Act 2015.

5. No evidence of landholder authority.

The operator is also put to strict proof, by means of contemporaneous and unredacted evidence, of a chain of authority flowing from the landholder of the "relevant land" to the operator. It is not accepted that the operator has adhered to the landholder's definitions, exemptions, grace period, hours of operation, etc. and any instructions to cancel charges due to complaints.

There is no evidence that the freeholder authorises this operator to issue parking charges or what the land enforcement boundary and start/expiry dates are, nor whether this operator has standing to enforce such charges in their own name rather than a bare licence to act as an agent ‘on behalf of’ the landowner.

The operator is put to strict proof of full compliance with the BPA Code of Practice. As this operator does not have proprietary interest in the “relevant land” then I require that they produce an unredacted copy of the contract with the landowner.

The contract and any 'site agreement' or 'User Manual' setting out details including exemptions - such as any 'genuine customer' or 'genuine resident' exemptions or any site occupier's 'right of veto' charge cancellation rights - is key evidence to define what this operator is authorised to do and any circumstances where the landowner/firms on site in fact have a right to cancellation of a charge. It cannot be assumed, just because an agent is contracted to merely put some signs up and issue Parking Charge Notices, that the agent is also authorised to make contracts with all or any category of visiting drivers and/or to enforce the charge in court in their own name (legal action regarding land use disputes generally being a matter for a landowner only). Witness statements are not sound evidence of the above, often being pre-signed, generic documents not even identifying the case in hand or even the site rules.

A witness statement might in some cases be accepted by POPLA but in this case I suggest it is unlikely to sufficiently evidence the definition of the services provided by each party to the agreement. Nor would it define vital information such as charging days/times, any exemption clauses, grace periods (which I believe may be longer than the bare minimum times set out in the BPA CoP) and basic information such as the land boundary and bays where enforcement applies/does not apply.

Not forgetting evidence of the various restrictions which the landowner has authorised can give rise to a charge and, of course, how much the landowner authorises this agent to charge (which cannot be assumed to be the sum on a sign because template private parking terms and sums have been known not to match the actual landowner agreement). Paragraph 7 of the BPA Code of Practice defines the mandatory requirements and I put this operator to strict proof of full compliance:

7.2 If the operator wishes to take legal action on any outstanding parking charges, they must ensure that they have the written authority of the landowner (or their appointed agent) prior to legal action being taken.

7.3 The written authorisation must also set out:

(a) the definition of the land on which you may operate, so that the boundaries of the land can be clearly defined
(b) any conditions or restrictions on parking control and enforcement operations, including any restrictions on hours of operation
(c) any conditions or restrictions on the types of vehicles that may, or may not, be subject to parking control and enforcement
(d) who has the responsibility for putting up and maintaining signs
(e) the definition of the services provided by each party to the agreement

Conclusion:

For the reasons outlined above, the PCN has been issued incorrectly and I request that POPLA uphold my appeal and cancel the parking charge.
Title: Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
Post by: Rightbak on September 26, 2024, 07:20:42 am
There's never any harm challenging them to produce a valid contract with the landholder - there's an example of how to do that here: http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=71287628&postcount=2343 (http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=71287628&postcount=2343)

Quote
I noticed that the PCN has the location as 'KFC Portsmouth, North Harbour'. I have searched further through the forum and believe this is insufficiently accurate
PoFA requires that they 'specify' the land - Unless there is more than one KFC at Portsmouth's North Harbour then this is likely to be a difficult sell.

Hi

Do you mean this one?

"No evidence of Landowner Authority - the operator is put to strict proof of full compliance with the BPA Code of Practice

As this operator does not have proprietary interest in the land then I require that they produce an unredacted copy of the contract with the landowner.

The contract and any 'site agreement' or 'User Manual' setting out details - such as any 'genuine customer' or 'genuine resident' exemptions or any site occupier's 'right of veto' charge cancellation rights, and of course all enforcement dates/times/days, and the boundary of the site - is key evidence to define what this operator is authorised to do, and when/where.

It cannot be assumed, just because an agent is contracted to merely put some signs up and issue Parking Charge Notices, that the agent is authorised on the material date, to make contracts with all or any category of visiting drivers and/or to enforce the charge in court in their own name (legal action regarding land use disputes generally being a matter for a landowner only).

Witness statements are not sound evidence of the above, often being pre-signed, generic documents not even identifying the case in hand or even the site rules. A witness statement might in some cases be accepted by POPLA but in this case I suggest it is unlikely to sufficiently evidence the definition of the services provided by each party to the agreement.

Nor would it define vital information such as charging days/times, any exemption clauses, grace periods (which I believe may be longer than the bare minimum times set out in the BPA CoP) and basic but crucial information such as the site boundary and any bays where enforcement applies/does not apply. Not forgetting evidence of the only restrictions which the landowner has authorised can give rise to a charge, as well as the date that the parking contract began, and when it runs to, or whether it runs in perpetuity, and of course, who the signatories are: name/job title/employer company, and whether they are authorised by the landowner to sign a binding legal agreement.

Paragraph 7 of the BPA CoP defines the mandatory requirements and I put this operator to strict proof of full compliance:

7.2 If the operator wishes to take legal action on any outstanding parking charges, they must ensure that they have the written authority of the landowner (or their appointed agent) prior to legal action being taken.

7.3 The written authorisation must also set out:

a the definition of the land on which you may operate, so that the boundaries of the land can be clearly defined

b any conditions or restrictions on parking control and enforcement operations, including any restrictions on hours of operation

c any conditions or restrictions on the types of vehicles that may, or may not, be subject to parking control and enforcement

d who has the responsibility for putting up and maintaining signs

e the definition of the services provided by each party to the agreement"


And just to confirm, add this as another point to my appeal?

Thanks
Title: Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
Post by: DWMB2 on September 25, 2024, 11:39:28 pm
There's never any harm challenging them to produce a valid contract with the landholder - there's an example of how to do that here: http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=71287628&postcount=2343 (http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=71287628&postcount=2343)

Quote
I noticed that the PCN has the location as 'KFC Portsmouth, North Harbour'. I have searched further through the forum and believe this is insufficiently accurate
PoFA requires that they 'specify' the land - Unless there is more than one KFC at Portsmouth's North Harbour then this is likely to be a difficult sell.
Title: Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
Post by: Rightbak on September 25, 2024, 11:19:56 pm
Just to add, I noticed that the PCN has the location as 'KFC Portsmouth, North Harbour'. I have searched further through the forum and believe this is insufficiently accurate i.e. it does not specify the address or postcode.
Title: Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
Post by: Rightbak on September 23, 2024, 09:55:26 pm
You may wish to share a draft before submission.

Also, don't expect POPLA to accept your appeal - not necessarily because it is without merit, but because POPLA rarely go for the 'forbidding signage' argument.

I have drafted my appeal before submission as follows (basically a cut and paste of prior posts, plus some further explanation)


I would be very grateful for any further pointers before submitting to POPLA. Thanks :)


"I am appealing as the KEEPER of vehicle registered xxxxxxx.
I believe that this ticket has been issued unfairly and wish to contest it based on the following two legal principles concerning contract formation.


Ground 1 - PoFA 9(2)(e)(i) failures


Schedule 4, Paragraph 9(2)(e)(i) of PoFA 2012


This paragraph mandates that for a parking operator to hold the vehicle's registered keeper liable for a parking charge, the Notice to Keeper (NtK) must include:


An "Invitation to Pay": The notice must explicitly invite the keeper to pay the unpaid parking charges.


Exact Wording: The wording must clearly convey this invitation and mere implication or indirect suggestions are insufficient. The act requires strict compliance, meaning that any failure to fully incorporate this invitation renders the notice non-compliant with the requirements of PoFA 2012.


Non-Compliance Issue: The NtK fails to include a clear "invitation to pay", or any synonym of the word "invitation", this omission is a breach of Schedule 4, Paragraph 9(2)(e)(i). Even if the notice suggests that payment is required, without an explicit invitation directed towards the keeper to settle the charge, the notice does not meet the exacting requirements of PoFA 2012.


Significance of Full Compliance


Strict Liability: The law mandates full and exact compliance with the specified wording and content outlined in PoFA 2012.


Partial or even Substantial Compliance Insufficient: Even if the notice largely complies with other requirements, the absence of a clear invitation to the keeper to pay is a significant flaw. The operator cannot rely on partial or even substantial compliance — every element as specified in the legislation must be present and correct.


Consequences for the Operator


Challenge Basis: If the notice is found to lack this crucial element, it can be used as a basis to challenge the parking charge.


Keeper Liability: The operator cannot transfer liability to the keeper.


Conclusion


In summary, the PCN does not include an explicit "invitation" for the keeper to pay the charge and therefore is not fully compliant with Schedule 4, Paragraph 9(2)(e)(i) of PoFA 2012. Since the law demands strict adherence, any omission, even if minor, invalidates the notice and relieves the keeper of any obligation to pay.



Ground 2 – Parking was forbidden during the times the vehicle was parked, thus no contract was formed as no consideration was offered by Parking Eye (the sign isn’t making a genuine offer to park for £100 when the store is closed)


For a contract to be formed, there must be a valid offer and acceptance, as well as consideration.


In this case, no contract can be formed when parking is explicitly prohibited during certain hours or under certain conditions.


Where parking is forbidden, there is no genuine offer being made to park the vehicle.


Consequently, without an offer, there can be no consideration, as the driver is not receiving any benefit for which they would be expected to give something in return.


By issuing this parking charge, it implies that a contract has been formed between the driver and the parking operator.
However, as parking was not permitted at the time, no such contract could exist.


When parking is prohibited, the mere presence of signage indicating restricted parking cannot be deemed an offer to contract, and therefore, any such charge is unenforceable due to the absence of mutual agreement and consideration.


There are legal precedents that touch on the idea that no contract is formed when parking is forbidden during certain hours, or when there is no genuine offer of consideration. One key point is the absence of an offer and no consideration when parking is prohibited or when certain conditions, such as a store being closed, are in place.


Vine v London Borough of Waltham Forest [2000] EWCA Civ 106: In this case, the Court of Appeal ruled that a motorist cannot be deemed to have agreed to the terms of a parking contract if they were unaware of the terms. If parking is prohibited, then the motorist is not accepting an offer but rather breaching a restriction, and no contract is formed.


Thornton v Shoe Lane Parking [1971] 2 QB 163: In this case, Lord Denning held that an offer must be clear and capable of being accepted by the driver. If no clear offer is made, no contract is formed. When parking is expressly prohibited during certain hours or in specific circumstances, no valid offer can be made, thus preventing a contract from being formed.


ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis [2015] UKSC 67: This is the leading case on parking charges, but it also reinforces the point that contracts in these situations are formed based on an offer of parking. However, if parking is not permitted at certain times (such as when a store is closed or outside designated hours), no valid offer is made, and no contract can be said to exist. The judgment implies that for a charge to be enforceable, a valid offer and acceptance must be in place, meaning the signage must constitute a genuine offer.


Conclusion
Parking was prohibited during the times the vehicle was parked, thus no contract was formed as no consideration was offered by Parking Eye. Hence the PCN is unenforceable due to the absence of mutual agreement and consideration.



I kindly request that you review both grounds I am contesting the PCN against."
Title: Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
Post by: b789 on September 18, 2024, 03:18:22 pm
You'll need a bit more than that for your POPLA appeal. You seem to be under the assumption that a POPLA assessor is somehow fully legally trained. Absolutely not. You have to lead the by the nose to any point you are trying to make. Think of the as being a bit dimwitted and having to explain in great detail the point you are trying to make.

You should always argue signage, BPA Code of Practice (CoP) breaches, landowner authority.
Title: Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
Post by: DWMB2 on September 18, 2024, 03:06:52 pm
You may wish to share a draft before submission.

Also, don't expect POPLA to accept your appeal - not necessarily because it is without merit, but because POPLA rarely go for the 'forbidding signage' argument.
Title: Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
Post by: Rightbak on September 18, 2024, 02:42:30 pm
Yes, there are legal precedents that touch on the idea that no contract is formed when parking is forbidden during certain hours, or when there is no genuine offer of consideration. One key point is the absence of an offer and no consideration when parking is prohibited or when certain conditions, such as a store being closed, are in place.

Vine v London Borough of Waltham Forest [2000] EWCA Civ 106 (https://knyvet.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2000/106.html): In this case, the Court of Appeal ruled that a motorist cannot be deemed to have agreed to the terms of a parking contract if they were unaware of the terms. If parking is prohibited, then the motorist is not accepting an offer but rather breaching a restriction, and no contract is formed.

Thornton v Shoe Lane Parking [1971] 2 QB 163 (https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/1970/2.html): In this case, Lord Denning held that an offer must be clear and capable of being accepted by the driver. If no clear offer is made, no contract is formed. When parking is expressly prohibited during certain hours or in specific circumstances, no valid offer can be made, thus preventing a contract from being formed.

ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis [2015] UKSC 67 (https://www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKSC/2015/67.html): This is the leading case on parking charges, but it also reinforces the point that contracts in these situations are formed based on an offer of parking. However, if parking is not permitted at certain times (such as when a store is closed or outside designated hours), no valid offer is made, and no contract can be said to exist. The judgment implies that for a charge to be enforceable, a valid offer and acceptance must be in place, meaning the signage must constitute a genuine offer.

If the signage suggests a punitive charge rather than an offer to park, especially during times when parking is not allowed (such as when the store is closed), then the argument can be made that no contract was formed due to the lack of consideration and the absence of a valid offer.

Thank you so much for your continued help with this appeal, it is very much appreciated. I will therefore submit my appeal to POPLA essentially using your wording/links and also the update you posted previously as supporting evidence.

I'll update again should this go further.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
Post by: b789 on September 18, 2024, 01:28:55 pm
Yes, there are legal precedents that touch on the idea that no contract is formed when parking is forbidden during certain hours, or when there is no genuine offer of consideration. One key point is the absence of an offer and no consideration when parking is prohibited or when certain conditions, such as a store being closed, are in place.

Vine v London Borough of Waltham Forest [2000] EWCA Civ 106 (https://knyvet.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2000/106.html): In this case, the Court of Appeal ruled that a motorist cannot be deemed to have agreed to the terms of a parking contract if they were unaware of the terms. If parking is prohibited, then the motorist is not accepting an offer but rather breaching a restriction, and no contract is formed.

Thornton v Shoe Lane Parking [1971] 2 QB 163 (https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/1970/2.html): In this case, Lord Denning held that an offer must be clear and capable of being accepted by the driver. If no clear offer is made, no contract is formed. When parking is expressly prohibited during certain hours or in specific circumstances, no valid offer can be made, thus preventing a contract from being formed.

ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis [2015] UKSC 67 (https://www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKSC/2015/67.html): This is the leading case on parking charges, but it also reinforces the point that contracts in these situations are formed based on an offer of parking. However, if parking is not permitted at certain times (such as when a store is closed or outside designated hours), no valid offer is made, and no contract can be said to exist. The judgment implies that for a charge to be enforceable, a valid offer and acceptance must be in place, meaning the signage must constitute a genuine offer.

If the signage suggests a punitive charge rather than an offer to park, especially during times when parking is not allowed (such as when the store is closed), then the argument can be made that no contract was formed due to the lack of consideration and the absence of a valid offer.
Title: Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
Post by: Rightbak on September 18, 2024, 12:19:42 pm
I would like to provide an update on my situation.

Unfortunately, my appeal to ParkingEye was unsuccessful. I am now preparing to escalate the matter to POPLA and am currently compiling my case.

Based on previous discussions, I understand there are two primary arguments for my defense:

1) The notice does not comply with the requirements of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 to hold the registered keeper liable for the charge. Specifically, it fails to "invite" the keeper to pay the charge, as stipulated under paragraph 9(2)(e)(i) of the Act. I plan to use the well-worded section kindly provided by b789 above.

2) Additionally, an argument could be made that as parking was forbidden during the times the vehicle was parked, no contract was formed, as no consideration was offered by ParkingEye (the sign isn't making a genuine offer to park for £100 when the store is closed).

For point 2, is there any template or standardised wording I should use? Alternatively, are there any relevant court cases where this argument has been successfully tested that I should reference?

Thank you
Title: Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
Post by: b789 on August 28, 2024, 02:50:14 pm
Just remember, you are appealing as the keeper of the vehicle. What the driver did or didn’t do, can be relayed but there is no legal obligation for the keeper to identify the driver. The keeper, the recipient of the NtK, is known to the operator. The driver, is unknown to the operator.

The keeper and the driver are two separate legal entities. The only way the operator can identify the driver is if the keeper tells them, inadvertently or otherwise.
Title: Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
Post by: Rightbak on August 28, 2024, 02:14:52 pm
Appeals are routinely rejected. But when they do reject, you then have a shot at POPLA. It's also often considered a reasonable thing to do - if someone writes to you demanding money, and you don't believe you owe it to them, it's generally considered reasonable to tell them as such and explain why.

Yes, point taken thanks. Should the Parking Eye appeal be rejected then I will appeal to POPLA as suggested. If I may I will post my appeal on here before sending in, just to make sure I have the points down correctly.
Title: Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
Post by: DWMB2 on August 28, 2024, 02:05:18 pm
Appeals are routinely rejected. But when they do reject, you then have a shot at POPLA. It's also often considered a reasonable thing to do - if someone writes to you demanding money, and you don't believe you owe it to them, it's generally considered reasonable to tell them as such and explain why.
Title: Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
Post by: Rightbak on August 28, 2024, 01:53:11 pm
Where has it been suggested that the PCN is not appealed??

Given that the Parking Eye appeals process is managed internally, I anticipated that the majority of appeals would be rejected, making it seem almost futile to attempt one. However, I have just submitted an appeal using some of the wording you provided—thank you for that.
Title: Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
Post by: b789 on August 28, 2024, 01:00:30 pm
Where has it been suggested that the PCN is not appealed??
Title: Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
Post by: Rightbak on August 28, 2024, 12:30:14 pm
The reminder is essentially discretionary, they don't need to send one, and as such there is no prescribed content as such.

It is the original notice that is important.

If you plan to fight the matter my personal view is that you should appeal rather than waiting for them to sue you.

Thank you
Title: Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
Post by: DWMB2 on August 28, 2024, 12:27:49 pm
The reminder is essentially discretionary, they don't need to send one, and as such there is no prescribed content as such.

It is the original notice that is important.

If you plan to fight the matter my personal view is that you should appeal rather than waiting for them to sue you.
Title: Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
Post by: Rightbak on August 28, 2024, 12:19:54 pm
Hi

I have now received a Parking Charge Notice Reminder.

https://imgur.com/a/h5nj92z

What I noted is that the reminder notice does not have a statement passing the charge from the driver to the keeper if the driver is unknown. Is this usual, and does it change the original notice at all?

Should I wish to contest the charge to the driver, would it be best to do nothing and wait it out or to appeal?

Thank you
Title: Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
Post by: b789 on August 23, 2024, 01:46:15 pm
The NtK does fail to fully comply with all the requirements of PoFA.

It is your money and your conscience. However, why exactly would you not wish to go to court over this matter if you think you may be unfairly charged even if you are not liable for that charge?

There are many misconceptions about going to “court”. This is not a criminal matter. It is a civil matter that would be dealt with in the county court. There is no “prosecution” and no “offence” has been committed.

Just in case you are imagining “Rumpole of the Bailey”, here is a short video of what actually happens in a small claims hearing:

Small claim court video link:

https://youtu.be/n93eoaxhzpU?feature=shared
Title: Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
Post by: Rightbak on August 23, 2024, 01:28:19 pm
Why would you not wish to go to court? Do you feel that the PCN has been issued fairly? If so, you can pay it with a clear conscience.

However, if you feel it was issued unfairly, then simply paying it to take advantage of what is called the “mugs discount” is the equivalent of knowingly paying a scammer and therefore perpetuating the problem.

Having obliterated all the dates and times and not shown us the back of the NtK doesn’t help us to help you but invariably, PE fail to fully comply with PoFA 9(2)(e)(i). I have had extensive and continue to have discussion almost daily with a long serving district judge and he has confirmed that the argument about 9(2)(e)(i) is a perfectly valid defence point and, as is seen in the PE NtKs I have shown him, does not comply and only the driver can be liable.

If using that point, all you have to do is draw the judge to that point. If there are other possible PoFA failures as highlighted by @DWMB2, then you do the same. It is nothing about being “tested in court”. Judges make their decisions based on facts. If you can show a “fact”, then it is so. The only time a “balance of probability” comes into play is when there are no “facts” to prove a point.

Thank you so much for your reply.

Just to add, my earlier imgur link does show the back of the NtK if that helps. And admittedly whilst I did remove times from the images I posted, I did reply showing what these were.

In answer to your question, I don't wish to go to court over this matter. I am unsure whether the PCN has been issued fairly.
Title: Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
Post by: b789 on August 23, 2024, 12:56:53 pm
If the judge was left to interpret, then the advocate or LiP did not present their argument or point clearly enough.

I do not have any precedent to hand because not a single claim i have advised on has ever reached a hearing. Every claim has either been discontinued or struck out before a hearing. It’s a proud achievement and down to valid argument of the points and good advice from a very long serving district judge who I am in daily contact with.

I am still waiting for my first claim where I can actually argue the points as a lay rep on behalf of a defendant. For now, I practice on the judge.
Title: Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
Post by: DWMB2 on August 23, 2024, 12:45:49 pm
And yet they do interpret. I've sat in plenty of cases where they come to adverse conclusions on PoFA, some that on the face of it were far more clear cut than this one.

That wording is helpful, it would be useful to back some of it up with references to authority on the points made, or reference to cases that have been won on those points (perhaps from recent cases where you have succeeded with that wording).

If the OP wants to take them to task on this point then I'd support them, and indeed it would be useful to see a case go to court on this point to test it out (unless you're already aware of any previous cases you've been involved in). But it's important that we make clear to the OP that this is not a slam dunk win, and we cannot guarantee success.
Title: Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
Post by: b789 on August 23, 2024, 12:28:24 pm
If you present your point to a judge, there is nothing to interpret. This is the way to present the 9(2)(e)(i) point to the judge:

Quote
PoFA 9(2)(e)(i) failures

Schedule 4, Paragraph 9(2)(e)(i) of PoFA 2012

This paragraph mandates that for a parking operator to hold the vehicle's registered keeper liable for a parking charge, the Notice to Keeper (NtK) must include:

An "Invitation to Pay": The notice must explicitly invite the keeper to pay the unpaid parking charges.

Exact Wording: The wording must clearly convey this invitation and mere implication or indirect suggestions are insufficient. The act requires strict compliance, meaning that any failure to fully incorporate this invitation renders the notice non-compliant with the requirements of PoFA 2012.

Non-Compliance Issue

If the NtK fails to include a clear "invitation to pay", or any synonym of the word "invitation", this omission is a breach of Schedule 4, Paragraph 9(2)(e)(i). Even if the notice suggests that payment is required, without an explicit invitation directed towards the keeper to settle the charge, the notice does not meet the exacting requirements of PoFA 2012.

Significance of Full Compliance

Strict Liability: The law mandates full and exact compliance with the specified wording and content outlined in PoFA 2012.

Partial or even Substantial Compliance Insufficient: Even if the notice largely complies with other requirements, the absence of a clear invitation to the keeper to pay is a significant flaw. The operator cannot rely on partial or even substantial compliance — every element as specified in the legislation must be present and correct.

Consequences for the Operator

Challenge Basis: If the notice is found to lack this crucial element, it can be used as a basis to challenge the parking charge.

Keeper Liability: The operator cannot transfer liability to the keeper, which significantly weaken their case if the notice to the driver or other requirements are also flawed or if the driver is unknown.

Conclusion

In summary, a PCN that does not include an explicit "invitation" for the keeper to pay the charge is not fully compliant with Schedule 4, Paragraph 9(2)(e)(i) of PoFA 2012. Since the law demands strict adherence, any omission, even if minor, invalidates the notice and relieves the keeper of any obligation to pay. This should be raised in any appeal or legal response to the charge.
Title: Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
Post by: DWMB2 on August 23, 2024, 12:14:18 pm
Quote
If using that point, all you have to do is draw the judge to that point.
Indeed. My point around it being a brave man who relies solely on that point was that, from the court cases I've been involved in, different judges can have fairly different interpretations of PoFA compliance (whether they should have such varying interpretations is another matter, but pragmatically, they do).

OP, it's your money, so it essentially comes down to your appetite for risk (and of course your financial situation).
Title: Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
Post by: b789 on August 23, 2024, 12:05:10 pm
Why would you not wish to go to court? Do you feel that the PCN has been issued fairly? If so, you can pay it with a clear conscience.

However, if you feel it was issued unfairly, then simply paying it to take advantage of what is called the “mugs discount” is the equivalent of knowingly paying a scammer and therefore perpetuating the problem.

Having obliterated all the dates and times and not shown us the back of the NtK doesn’t help us to help you but invariably, PE fail to fully comply with PoFA 9(2)(e)(i). I have had extensive and continue to have discussion almost daily with a long serving district judge and he has confirmed that the argument about 9(2)(e)(i) is a perfectly valid defence point and, as is seen in the PE NtKs I have shown him, does not comply and only the driver can be liable.

If using that point, all you have to do is draw the judge to that point. If there are other possible PoFA failures as highlighted by @DWMB2, then you do the same. It is nothing about being “tested in court”. Judges make their decisions based on facts. If you can show a “fact”, then it is so. The only time a “balance of probability” comes into play is when there are no “facts” to prove a point.
Title: Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
Post by: Rightbak on August 23, 2024, 09:37:50 am
Thanks for your considered reply.

I have tried to check the boundary of Portsmouth Harbour, but could not find anything that indicates the extent of where this lies.

Therefore my understanding from your reply, is that the notice does comply with requirements of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedom Act 2012, other than two potential arguments, both of which are unlikely to be accepted by both Parkingeye and POPLA. I do not wish to go to court to find out whether these arguments would hold.

Therefore I am left with a charge to pay of £60 rising to £100 if unpaid within 14 days of the date issued (16/8/24) so 30/8/24.

I do not particularly want to wait this out hoping that Parkingeye go away, with the threat of court and ultimately little chance of winning if it does go to court.

Therefore on the balance of risk I am assuming best to pay the £60 now and move on?

Thank you

   
Title: Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
Post by: DWMB2 on August 22, 2024, 11:10:31 pm
There is an argument sometimes made that the notice does not comply with the requirements of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, in order to hold the registered keeper liable for the charge, as it does not 'invite' the keeper to pay the charge, as required by 9(2)(e)(i) of the act. I'm not sure if this argument has been tested, and my personal view on it is that it would be a very brave person who sought to defend a charge solely on this ground.

I wonder if an argument could be made that as parking was forbidden during the times the vehicle was parked, no contract was formed, as no consideration was offered by ParkingEye (the sign isn't making a genuine offer to park for £100 when the store is closed).

The issue with both of the above suggestions is that neither ParkingEye nor POPLA would be likely to accept these arguments, so you would need to potentially be prepared to argue the matter in court.

Another thing to check, just to rule it out, is whether the land is within the boundary of the harbour, and thus potentially subject to byelaws. Given it's north of the motorway, I'd be surprised, but worth ruling out.
Title: Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
Post by: Rightbak on August 22, 2024, 05:56:38 pm
Yes, I can see that now
Title: Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
Post by: The Rookie on August 22, 2024, 03:32:52 pm
So your issue was actually parking before 10am.
Title: Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
Post by: Rightbak on August 20, 2024, 05:24:51 pm
Hi

Arrival Time: 13/8/2024 09:12:55

Departure Time: 13/08/2024 10:08:55

Time In Car Park: 0 hours 56 minutes

Thanks
Title: Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
Post by: RichardW on August 20, 2024, 05:19:42 pm
What time did you park? - you've blanked it out, invoice claims the allowed parking time is 0 hours, which would suggest parking outside of the 'allowed' hours of 10am - 11pm.
Title: Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
Post by: Rightbak on August 20, 2024, 12:48:41 pm
Thanks for the info. Here is the link to the PCN

https://imgur.com/a/bIOeGHV

And here is the link to the signage at the carpark

https://imgur.com/a/vclLjUM

The driver was not a customer of KFC
Title: Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
Post by: DWMB2 on August 20, 2024, 12:45:15 pm
P.S. I will try to attach a copy of the PCN in a reply as I am getting errors uploading..
This thread advises: READ THIS FIRST - Private Parking Charges Forum guide (https://www.ftla.uk/private-parking-tickets/read-this-first-private-parking-charges-forum-guide/)

Once we've got the relevant info we can provide further advice. In the meantime, was the driver a customer of the KFC?
Title: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
Post by: Rightbak on August 20, 2024, 12:42:34 pm
Hi all

Hoping for some advice please.

On 13/8/24 the driver of the vehicle entered the KFC carpark at Portsmouth North Harbour. They noticed a sign saying it was a 'Two hour max stay' carpark, but didn't read that it was 'A customer Only Carpark'..

The driver stayed for 56 minutes and left.

Today the registered owner of the vehicle received the attached PCN from Parkingeye.

Presumably there is something in the KFC building to enter a vehicle registration (not confirmed), but the signs certainly did not say this at the time (google street view confirms the signage).

Would be most grateful for any help.

Thanks :)

P.S. I will try to attach a copy of the PCN in a reply as I am getting errors uploading..