Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Charsiu on July 31, 2023, 01:47:01 pm

Title: Re: PCN - Driving in a Bus Lane within the restricted period., Insufficient Upright Signs? Challenge Rejected
Post by: cp8759 on March 19, 2024, 09:46:10 pm
@cp8759: Videalert is the camera which has a certificate?
I think so but you'd have to check the certificate.
Title: Re: PCN - Driving in a Bus Lane within the restricted period., Insufficient Upright Signs? Challenge Rejected
Post by: Hippocrates on March 19, 2024, 08:26:19 pm
@cp8759: Videalert is the camera which has a certificate?
Title: Re: PCN - Driving in a Bus Lane within the restricted period., Insufficient Upright Signs? Challenge Rejected
Post by: cp8759 on March 19, 2024, 07:40:59 pm
ICO decision notice (https://ico.org.uk/media/action-weve-taken/decision-notices/2024/4028203/ic-260961-h0n2.pdf), the council has now responded that:

TES Ltd is the Manufacturer and Small Blue is the model.
Title: Re: PCN - Driving in a Bus Lane within the restricted period., Insufficient Upright Signs? Challenge Rejected
Post by: cp8759 on November 29, 2023, 09:43:11 am
Outcome (https://drive.google.com/file/d/13xqeZ23037Nbq451v-7z-F3YN6utZc63).
Title: Re: PCN - Driving in a Bus Lane within the restricted period., Insufficient Upright Signs? Challenge Rejected
Post by: Hippocrates on November 29, 2023, 09:39:56 am
Havering's staff need INSET.


Case reference 2230439332

Cost Details
Application by Appellant
Decision date 28 Nov 2023
Adjudicator Edward Houghton
Decision Cost award allowed
Direction -
Reasons The Appellant did not appear in person but was represented by Mr Morgan. Having heard his submissions I consider that this is a case where the statutory criteria for the making of an Order are met. The legal deficiencies in the Council’s documentation were drawn to its attention at an early stage and were in my view incontrovertibly correct, potential grounds of appeal appearing that were inapplicable in the case of Bus Lane contraventions. The Council should have accepted the representations on this point and its failure to do so was in my view wholly unreasonable. The amount claimed seems to me a modest and proportionate sum and I make the order in that amount.

;D  >:(  ::)

They must be raking in thousands with these outrageously-worded documents.  Kingston has the same errors on their PCNs.
Title: Re: PCN - Driving in a Bus Lane within the restricted period., Insufficient Upright Signs? Challenge Rejected
Post by: Hippocrates on October 30, 2023, 01:14:02 pm
Costs application to follow.  NOR sent to the Tribunal is not a true copy of the original which was sent to the appellant.  An important redaction made by the council concerning apparent advice from London Councils regarding the compliance of their PCN and EN.  ::)

I feel the onset of another video coming on.
Title: Re: PCN - Driving in a Bus Lane within the restricted period., Insufficient Upright Signs? Challenge Rejected
Post by: Hippocrates on October 25, 2023, 08:58:10 pm
Outcome:  DNC.  The end of the beginning.
Title: Re: PCN - Driving in a Bus Lane within the restricted period., Insufficient Upright Signs? Challenge Rejected
Post by: Hippocrates on October 21, 2023, 12:28:51 pm
I think handkerchiefs are on order for this one. Can't wait.  ;D

The NOR should be in the Guinness Book of Records:  threatens an Enforcement Notice, two different expressions of the 28 day periods and, last but not least, includes a 21 days period as well.  :-X

What did Jackson J say?:  "Playing fast and loose"  etc.
Title: Re: PCN - Driving in a Bus Lane within the restricted period., Insufficient Upright Signs? Challenge Rejected
Post by: Hippocrates on September 08, 2023, 09:31:37 pm
Taken charge of this one.
Title: Re: PCN - Driving in a Bus Lane within the restricted period., Insufficient Upright Signs? Challenge Rejected
Post by: Hippocrates on September 07, 2023, 09:03:17 am
I have lost the images of the Enforcement Notice but I remember what it contained.  If you want me to represent you now or at the Tribunal tis up to you.  But, here is my draft:

Dear Sirs

Ref:  PCN...........VRM..........

I acknowledge receipt of the Enforcement Notice and refer to all correspondence in this matter.

I reiterate my previous "informal challenge" which I require you to be treated as my formal representations.  Furthermore, the Enforcement Notice is also a nullity and void because it incorrectly states the period of payment.  Therefore, I make a collateral challenge in respect of this too.

Finally, some of the grounds included on the said notice are irrelevant since they do not pertain to this legislation.

Should you not agree to cancel the PCN, I shall not hesitate to take the matter to adjudication since both documents clearly demonstrate fundamental and substantial departures from the mandatory and statutory framework.

Yours faithfully

Name

Address

***********************************

Please can you repost the EN?  PM sent.  Received so I have modified as above. And sent another e mail.  This is incredulous!  If they are daft enough to pursue this to the Tribunal, costs may well be on the table even if they DNC.
Title: Re: PCN - Driving in a Bus Lane within the restricted period., Insufficient Upright Signs? Challenge Rejected
Post by: Charsiu on September 06, 2023, 05:24:35 pm
Hi Hippocrates,

Thank you for offering to represent me on this PCN, please can you let me know what I need to do next?

Thanks!
Title: Re: PCN - Driving in a Bus Lane within the restricted period., Insufficient Upright Signs? Challenge Rejected
Post by: Hippocrates on September 05, 2023, 08:51:14 pm
More nonsense.  The law:

2)An enforcement notice must state—
(a)the amount of the penalty charge payable;
(b)the grounds on which the council believe that a penalty charge is payable with respect to the vehicle;
(c)that the penalty charge must be paid before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the enforcement notice is served;

Would you like me to deal with this one for you to get it cancelled now and/or at the Tribunal?

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/1996/9/schedule/1/enacted

This is total incompetence.
Title: Re: PCN - Driving in a Bus Lane within the restricted period., Insufficient Upright Signs? Challenge Rejected
Post by: Charsiu on September 05, 2023, 02:07:21 pm
The images were loading fine when I posted the other day (https://emoji.tapatalk-cdn.com/emoji52.png), this is definitely working right now:

(https://db3pap002files.storage.live.com/y4mliveGDah21uU3TCslVvDLLA9a8u4zkgfFd9NDgIaHSDV_ZvofuB-Lt6p_cErHzt7iDvP5JgelcD748U-mo2aFHwhPZ9a8M6_kCSrNymq_dnMIyrkAiSXlV5CDSHcChA7EN93QDyFrFhKoAbpw1aU4aYqsgasTmovuOsxEx17eKn_GeInXTwIhbPYGDO_zLJmxB18w8r0zbz0H8L1Sgh-NQ?encodeFailures=1&width=849&height=1168)

(https://db3pap002files.storage.live.com/y4mvnH7n7GSUxHL6zlwOivf9dY9YqTqh5-QD7L_5bE1ePiXrIsH7iuY59llPor6kUFJrPy5Cr9Z-nrBkymwWsUqJpc9a6yyuJfuyx1jWtL-h1jgjcoYcWCP7VI6q_bxV6UtQvgv_gvEJSjF4GtVks8bARU3sVcSY4vxEtBCn7Ne-mnpGWprMK3KrQTa2WiaBn0vdp66_my8_1RuN4rrH3DawQ?encodeFailures=1&width=792&height=1168)

(https://db3pap002files.storage.live.com/y4mxcgcv4xJbEsEuk0P3Ni6dFu6h4Ttqvfcgr1XD8iKMj-DkJyWUot5wfAULKYDJ3luMrRREGtFJOLz0bZGOpQJXHuk7xMVetHNEKj1KP9-Q-WDeuM6kinBpteQ96csBhzD4ne0Z-OCSkyOGaPRexq6Kq_6fljpq2XozsZX2q89I3BnevSehEWBQqOk6DAnrsNo74jRpwHUxp3ZnsmGVEjE9g?encodeFailures=1&width=752&height=1168)
Title: Re: PCN - Driving in a Bus Lane within the restricted period., Insufficient Upright Signs? Challenge Rejected
Post by: Hippocrates on September 05, 2023, 06:06:35 am
As cp says.  WE need to see the EN. Without seeing it, I would advise putting in exactly the same representations again which you now require them to consider as formal representations. Make absolutely no comment whatsoever on their initial rejection for obvious reasons.  If they produce the same again, the adjudicator will be on your side.
Title: Re: PCN - Driving in a Bus Lane within the restricted period., Insufficient Upright Signs? Challenge Rejected
Post by: cp8759 on September 04, 2023, 11:13:50 pm
Your images aren't loading, please host them on imgur.com and copy the BB codes on here.
Title: Re: PCN - Driving in a Bus Lane within the restricted period., Insufficient Upright Signs? Challenge Rejected
Post by: Charsiu on August 31, 2023, 12:58:18 pm
Hi All,

Enforcement Notice arrived 20 minutes ago:


(https://db3pap002files.storage.live.com/y4mgkJRhxUhSoP1vJGdBOJW4cinSq3uiFQa_49HqnOd4jgar9vfFRrMag69jwNr3zBjN-RgiK4AqCdRuCjTY3PZyRaAFcgIrtv-_pF8Y-rof-9_2qV6tmfvFMcsqrBM4Gcf_SUhNYfHJVIiEw_wmLVu1lTzP7o3cPfs9W2lM2uRR7SV2UXeuS3uYtBiUHKuiV5uaH2ZhySq-THeAP99Qj7u9g?encodeFailures=1&width=849&height=1168)

(https://db3pap002files.storage.live.com/y4moPdx6Ee-6aooLQDYbriFv2gez80f9WvfArboFoXktknwhIwTobiJgo_fJ2zTsphsUJ09f_ovjBpPifLGV1clpN-TjQIgva1AX0HL4xsThFFOnXFakEjbbiDz5EvoUOQr1XDA4HwVCxhat0Ng4I-nWk89U6m9iqlDwMIcFmO2yavqzV7HfeBszNrTAebV5fJCmA8iuH8DJaeU0K00MMiXtQ?encodeFailures=1&width=792&height=1168)

(https://db3pap002files.storage.live.com/y4mMKUorLGkg6Fl77SX5VEcTJgVJi8ifJMJih4Ok-BGeEgs15VasBMBxYQbc_UWfBMUkKIPDYlveTmaWzSzM3D_E2MFkPM388CFhfcearnVMzNVHToStXXv5ddZQr6dZRXo2uxRVeRYIEst_jMwlolVWzb2uEZ1xHlLnbapEioueCdQiWnk3zLhzr8kcIQZ6-djvnDZeverUq0pHAdMuj_ywg?encodeFailures=1&width=752&height=1168)
Title: Re: PCN - Driving in a Bus Lane within the restricted period., Insufficient Upright Signs? Challenge Rejected
Post by: Hippocrates on August 04, 2023, 10:52:13 am
If this goes to the Tribunal, I wonder what colour the face of the parking manager will turn when s/he is asked which grounds of the LLA Act were considered!  There is also an anomaly re "At any time".
Title: Re: PCN - Driving in a Bus Lane within the restricted period., Insufficient Upright Signs? Challenge Rejected
Post by: cp8759 on August 02, 2023, 09:42:46 pm
I might also have another technical argument in the pipeline.

In the meantime please post the Enforcement Notice on here when it comes through.
Title: Re: PCN - Driving in a Bus Lane within the restricted period., Insufficient Upright Signs? Challenge Rejected
Post by: Hippocrates on August 02, 2023, 12:09:41 pm
The technical issues have much weight IMO.  Also, some of those pictures clearly show a motorbike so the Traffic Management Order should be interesting.
Title: Re: PCN - Driving in a Bus Lane within the restricted period., Insufficient Upright Signs? Challenge Rejected
Post by: DancingDad on August 02, 2023, 10:31:39 am
.....- I was wondering if they needed a new sign for the Bus Lane when it resumes after the zig-zags stop:....

Also, look at picture 12, imagine if someone commenced driving from the shops and pulled into the left lane of that road, with the absence of a sign to indicate the bus lane enforcement after the zig-zags, they would immediately infringe on the bus lane.........
No new sign needed though an adjudicator may take the view that someone entering from the shops was disadvantaged and allow an appeal.
But you didn't join the lane that way.
Obviously none of us know (and you don't need to tell us) how far along the road you had travelled or when you entered the bus lane but the video shows you in it as you left the zig zags.
An adjudicator is likely to assume that you had travelled far enough to be well aware that it was a bus lane
Title: Re: PCN - Driving in a Bus Lane within the restricted period., Insufficient Upright Signs? Challenge Rejected
Post by: Charsiu on August 02, 2023, 10:10:56 am
There is certainly a lot more signage than what is currently on GSV, but my thoughts were focussed on the section of pictures 11-12. Where the zig-zag pedestrian markings commence for the Traffic Light crossing (this interrupts the bus lane?) - I was wondering if they needed a new sign for the Bus Lane when it resumes after the zig-zags stop:

Quote
A bus lane must be terminated at the start of the ziz-zags and may pick up again at the end of the zig-zags on the far side of the crossing.
Quote

Also, look at picture 12, imagine if someone commenced driving from the shops and pulled into the left lane of that road, with the absence of a sign to indicate the bus lane enforcement after the zig-zags, they would immediately infringe on the bus lane.

(https://db3pap002files.storage.live.com/y4m2-Y0ovTQ7Lv692CCVanWr7mN9Mok5G61U9712F1ZaFeoOAgjVgQBDDF-vtj2AKXjW5RYSix4ShUGsxX1_mhKVIEeirwuZGEB7efflFecrHobAkaWbPzug6i5agSZPRDfJXqb-RM7diDCV1rjl3-FBLjwplRhFqjR5t3Sx9AQIBWHFveE-LhUafQmGeSz8utyvBPJNBQ8hBJscxlWzac6Hg?encodeFailures=1&width=504&height=283)

Though, I appreciate this might be a clutch at straws and have a better chance with cp8759's technical/legal defense.
Title: Re: PCN - Driving in a Bus Lane within the restricted period., Insufficient Upright Signs? Challenge Rejected
Post by: DancingDad on August 01, 2023, 11:11:07 pm
For the record, IMO not a hope in hell of winning this on insufficient or misleading markings, I would not dwell on that aspect.
CP's draft does have merit, even if council do not agree.
Title: Re: PCN - Driving in a Bus Lane within the restricted period., Insufficient Upright Signs? Challenge Rejected
Post by: Charsiu on August 01, 2023, 09:34:06 pm
Thanks cp8759, I went back earlier on and did a full walk. Think I may have gone overboard with the photos!

Route


(https://db3pap002files.storage.live.com/y4mo3pnXJdoKpibAuxf9kkgHQAOE1YfUorT7Znruluq3ssEJhZ1zF3RMjS23mgAnZImDmt6BLhLcoVasZLY6z8QBWXsBil3mLnLcAuDQkm4mJ35eMCAHUoYWWg-gzgKCF_jOLze1FUjq-HxFiTKY7dOO1YTUwt0JIZuFu3bfp_545yJ8r8kPmwdGYTsBDk2c4KdKk8iCovd4Amtw7LCUutggg?encodeFailures=1&width=1514&height=670)

1
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2
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3
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4
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5
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6
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7
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10
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11
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12
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13
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14
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Title: Re: PCN - Driving in a Bus Lane within the restricted period., Insufficient Upright Signs? Challenge Rejected
Post by: Hippocrates on August 01, 2023, 10:35:01 am
Mr Beasley is legisationally-challenged.  Just put in the same again. The interesting point is that the PCN cites the 2003 Law, so he considers the reps. according to the same!  At least he is consistent there!  They simply cannot and will not accept any criticism of their PCNs.
Title: Re: PCN - Driving in a Bus Lane within the restricted period., Insufficient Upright Signs? Challenge Rejected
Post by: cp8759 on August 01, 2023, 12:47:13 am
Video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1eCDheEZc4

For reference, here's the representation I drafted:

Dear London Borough of Havering,

I challenge liability for PCN HG60468721 on the basis that the council has materially departed from the requirements of the London Local Authorities Act 1996. Firstly the PCN states that an Enforcement Notice may be issued if there have been no representations received and no payment made before the period of 28 days starting with the date of service of the PCN, this is wrong for two reasons as follows:

The first point is that the statutory 28 day period commences with the date of the notice, not the date of service. The second point is that an Enforcement Notice may be served if payment is not received, there is no statutory right to make representations against a bus lane penalty charge notice and while one might make representations, that is irrelevant for the purpose of service of an Enforcement Notice: the authority may serve an Enforcement Notice at any time after the expiry of the statutory 28 day period, in particular the authority may serve an Enforcement Notice even if informal representations against a PCN have been made and are outstanding.

What the 1996 Act actually says is that a penalty charge notice must state that if the penalty charge is not paid before the end of the 28 day period, an enforcement notice may be served by the council. While the wording of the regulations does not need to be quoted verbatim, the substance of the provision must be communicated and the PCN is defective in this regard.

Further to this, the statutory grounds of appeal are misstated. In particular the following statutory grounds of appeal do not exist under the 1996 Act, but are quoted on the PCN:

1) The vehicle had been permitted to remain at rest in the place in question by a person who was in control of the vehicle without the consent of the owner. This might well appear relevant to a bus lane contravention where, for example, a camera captures a car parked in a bus lane. This might happen for instance where someone drives a car into a bus lane outside of its hours of operation, parks the car and then the bus lane comes into operation later in the day. However this statutory ground of appeal does not exist.
2) The hire company ground which exists under the Traffic Management Act 2004 and the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 is quoted on the PCN, but this ground does not exist under the London Local Authorities Act 1996.
3) The penalty exceeds the amount due in the circumstances of the case: again this ground exists under the Traffic Management Act 2004 and the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003, but it does not exist under the London Local Authorities Act 1996.

In this instance the PCN departs so fundamentally from the requirements of the 1996 Act that the conditions required under the Act for liability to be imposed do not arise, it follows that the penalty charge must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,



This is the informal rejection:

(https://i.imgur.com/OwY8gmA.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/obBCz2J.png)

Looks like drivel, there's no consideration of the points made and they've even managed to quote the wrong Act of Parliament. For now just wait for the enforcement notice, in the meantime I'll try and confirm the make and model of the CCTV camera.

It would be helpful if you could confirm the exact route you took, and also if you could pop back and get some update photos of the signage.
Title: PCN - Driving in a Bus Lane within the restricted period., Insufficient Upright Signs? Challenge Rejected
Post by: Charsiu on July 31, 2023, 01:47:01 pm
Hi All!

This is a transitionary post (not sure whether to repost the entire first post), originally posted on Pepipoo: http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=150122&st=0

Quote
Received a PCN through the post for driving in part of a bus lane.

I managed to find the exact location of the footage: https://goo.gl/maps/B1Ryz89uHZTfgEEQ8

On this particular road the Bus Lane stretches a very lengthy part of the road, and having followed Google Maps I'm not surprised I missed the last 20 meter of it. Could anyone provide insight whether the markings/signage of the Bus Lane is sufficient? The footage/photos shows my vehicle at the specific point in the google maps link above, which does not show a Bus Lane, appreciate I maybe clutching a straws at best.

PCN and Challege Rejectiion details linked here:
https://1drv.ms/f/s!As_e_pwBk-z-yhbHlR11YEjPK2H7?e=ohXszm

I appealed as guided by cp8759 and I received the (expected) rejection letter today (letter dated 21st July), so that leaves me 3 days of the "discounted" price remaining.

Before the challenge kindly provided by cp8759, I was dwelling this point relating to pedestrian zig-zags:

Quote
Bus priority: The way ahead - DOT
https://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/...lve1073?page=28 (https://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ukgwa/20100304131015/http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/regional/buses/bpf/busprioritythewayahead12/busprioritythewayaheadhtmlve1073?page=28)

Not all authorities seem to be aware that bus lane markings are not permitted within the controlled area of a pedestrian crossing. A bus lane must be terminated at the start of the ziz-zags and may pick up again at the end of the zig-zags on the far side of the crossing. If the road surface is coloured for the bus lane, this may be continued through the controlled area (marked with zig-zags). If a coloured surface has been used for a bus lane, this may be continued through the controlled area (although not through the crossing itself).

Trying to gauge the viable defences I have should it get to a Formal Representation/London Tribunal stages.

Many Thanks All.